Psyker disciplines review and feedback

[Seswatha]

I would start with saying that psykers are quite strong if you know how to use them. Like many other areas in the game they suffer from bugs and poor balancing though so you have to be careful with what you pick.

The one big issue I have is the prereqs to take certain powers to unlock other powers. Not all of the powers are good, and picking a bad power to get the one you want while you only get 8 active ability slots through the entire game feels really bad, since you basically are stuck without new cool abilities for at least 10 levels. This would be solved if there was no bad powers as well, but imo it's less realistic than just removing the requirements. And every discipline has meh/bad powers.

With that said let's talk about disciplines.

1. Biomancy 3/5

Iron arm is meh but ok, niche as it's only decent to buff melee.

Invigorate is a decent heal, it would be good in theory but heals aren't good in current meta of killing everything in 1 round.

Enfeeble is meh but ok, even with Deterioration talent the damage increase is very mild and the stats it debuffs aren't super impactful. Still useful, especially with Adrenaline Surge when it costs 0 AP anyway.

Warp Speed is the first good power, Agility buff is negliglible but MP and AP buff can be worth it alone, especially if you cast it for 1 AP with Adrenaline Surge.

Regeneration is even more meh than Invigorate as it's heal-over-time, which is completely against the current meta.

Metabolic Overcharge is one of the best powers in the game, and the damage is easily offset by other talents & items by this point, however it takes us a long time to get here with a lot of abilities we have to take being rather mediocre and it may be an overkill at this point since you'll have anough turns to kill everything on "round 0" anyway.

Out of the passives Confer Immunity is interesting as a defensive shield talent combined with stronger heals from Sanctic, but defensive talents are generally not necessary later on.

Adrenaline Surge is top notch if you invest into multiple biomancy powers.

Corpus conversion is fine, Sanguine siphon is meh but useful to prevent some instant death effects, Biochemical Distortion poison is useless as most DoTs.

Biomancy staves are meh, they drain life and do single target damage, but as mentioned before healing is not really a thing later on. There's one unique staff that adds +2 PR though and is worth it simply as a stat stick.

Overall rating 3/5. It's an ok discipline but definitely suffers from having a bunch of meh/niche powers that you have to take to get to the better ones.

2. Divination 2/5

Forewarning - it's an ok but minor dodge/parry buff. Marginally useful but nothing to write home about early on. Gets better and actually quite decent in the mid/late game.

Foreboding - this is much less useful than Forewarning, while it's AoE you have to stay in it and the bonuses are a lot less. I also already said what I think about defensive abilities in the current meta, dodge at least is useful on assassins for lethality but ideally you'd like your assassin to be able to move unless it's a sniper (and even then occasionally).

Prescience - A super weak buff, which doesn't even get +1 in respective stat modifiers by default like iron Arm. It can get marginally useful when you hit 10+ PR but even then it's nothing to write home about.

Precognition - this just doesn't work and even if it did it would be pretty terrible if it only moved you up 2 positions. Just like Prescience this needs a big buff.

Perfect Timing - it's terrible in the current meta where you don't want to get hit at all, and even if that changed, it would mostly only be decent with a party that has multiple melee characters. Another bad power.

Prophetic Intervention - this is theoretically very powerful as it straight up allows you to prevent death of fellow party members, but in practice it's not needed if you pick other good abilities to avoid that happening in the first place, and requires you to take a bunch of trash to get to it.

Going to passives, Edge of Fate is useless outside of earlygame as it's easy to have 100% permanent crit so the talent that buffs crit by 15% for a single attack is less than worthless

Fatebringer is actually a good one as it allows you to buff armor pen of your entire group.

Flawless plan is bad like anything that requires your party to be attacked in the first place.

Predicted downfall could be useful if you struggle with dodge reduction and use weapons than oneshot enemies anyway (then you don't care that the reduction is for a single hit)

Unnatural luck is another defensive talent with a rather weak effect, unless it prevents some crazy sniper crit.

Divination staff is pretty meh and mostly useful in the earlygame if you don't crit every time already. It's only saving grace is that's it's 0 AP so it's relatively free (for high peril builds can be even useful to cast regardless to just increase veil degradation and another chance to trigger perils).

Overall rating 2/5, I wouldn't go further than the basic Foreboding and 1-2 passives (Fatebringer and maybe Predicted Downfall). Capstone power might be useful for people who don't run officers and get people oneshot on their first turn.

3. Pyromany 3/5

Ignite is a weak damage power, especially if you start as Sanctioned, and is mostly useful to get things to start burning. It also costs only 1 AP so can be worth it for finishing off low health targets, cause most attack powers cost 2 AP.

Firestorm is a weak AoE that needs someone to be buring already, but sets a lot of people on fire for future abuse.

Orchestrate Flames is really good when used on your melee chars, as it adds a huge chunk of fire damage to their melee attacks (I think it's the same damage as Ignite, but it's in addition to the base weapon damage and unlike Ignite it can crit, since it's a weapon attack and has an attack roll).

Molten beam is a decent aoe/support power that strips a lot of armour and can deal decent damage on a line (double Ignite damage gets you to decent numbers).

Inflame allows you to trigger all the DoTs you spread via firestorm and increase their damage further. It's nice that it doesn't count as an attack, however I haven't found this playstyle to be particularly effective and it requires a lot more setup than things that flat out just do more damage currently.

Incinerate is another one of these heavy setup powers that don't seem to be worth the effort, but supposedly it should be a boss killer.

Talking about Pyro passives, they're really good and often synergise with weapons better than with actual offensive powers.

Backdraft is pretty solid to do more damage to clustered groups of enemies with your psy powers.

Blazing Inferno is really good with high fire rate guns or pyro staff.

Body of Flames is too niche and while it helps vs self burn strat, the damage from self burn is not that significant anyway.

Burning blood is very mediocre damage, but can be used to trigger Lethality and Vulnerability stacks as Assassin.

Fire Within is bugged when picking it but if you do manage to pick it.. it's also bugged, either not doing anything or sometimes making your attack perma cost 0 it seems. It would be good if it wasn't bugged.

Melting armor is again great with burst/pyro staff.

Relentless blaze is +1 psy rating and synergises with self-burn Orchestrate flames melee, not really worth the effort otherwise imo.

Sparks of the Greater Flame is bad cause DoTs are bad but maybe you can make something work with Inflame for instant DoT crits, idk. I haven't tried to make it work extensively but it doesn't seem like it has a lot of potential.

Pyro staff is one of the best, since it's a burst weapon which scales much better than most actual burst weapons from things like Psychic Barrage. Unfortunately versatility is currently bugged with psy attacks so if you go AM you would still have to use guns a lot and Pyro staff maybe sometimes for a big finisher.

Overall rating 3/5. All the DoT shenanigans are too slow for the current meta, but passives are good (outiside of bugs) and pyro staff is good. Also melee with Orchestrated Flames is good. So mostly good for burst/pyro staff or melee build without going too deep.

4. Sanctic 4/5

Word of the Emperor is excellent and is one of the earliest available ways of stacking resolve. It gets less useful around act 2 but is still nice and has synergies with some other talents and items that proc off you affecting allies with abilities.

Purge Soul would be good damage, but it currently doesn't benefit from any % increases. I assume it's a bug for all direct damage as it says it can't be reduced and nothing about not being able to increase it, but in practice no % bonuses work, only flat ones. If this is fixed this power will be very good, it's kinda meh currently but can feel ok on classes that don't get a big % bonus anyway.

Shield of the Emperor is one of the best defensive powers. As stated multiple times I don't value defensive abilities highly but this one comes in act 1 where it's still relevant and can be even nice in a few other edge cases.

Light of the Emperor is the best heal in the game, and combined with Biomancy and Confer Immunity can give everyone a big temp hp shield. Again this is mostly defensive though so niche and comes later than the Shield so less opportunities to be useful. Still it even has some meme offensive applications like comboing it with Malpian Shroud, especially on a Vanguard.

Hammer of the Emperor is a strong attack buff which is limited by the fact it's only 1 attack and it buffs the whole party (or whoever was within range of the Word anyway). Since it's often optimal to use one overcharged damage dealer buffing everyone is often wasted, and only applying to one attack doesn't make that big of a difference on your main damage dealer. It's still ok though.

Sword of Faith is probably the best or the second best (after Word) power of this dicipline, which allows to summon a psy sword dealing Purge Soul damage. While it still doesn't benefit from any % increase except its own ones like bonuses vs daemons and xenos it does crit being a weapon, and its crit damage can be really strong, especially on an arch militant with talents like Critical Versatility. It also comes with ranged aoe attacks and the ability to further scale damage by spending momentum. All in all it's one of the best powers in the game in the right hands.

Speaking about passives, Destined is an ok earlygame defensive passive but is mostly useless mid-late as it's a) slow b) defensive

Edge of Dawn is ok but pretty low impact and notably doesn't work with Sanctic's own damage sources (which, again, I assume is a bug)

Eternal Gloriy is decisively meh but if you don't have anything better to pick can be an ok fileer

Hymns of Hatred are excellent, in particular if you use burst weapons on your team.

Psalms of Heroes is also great and one of the most reliable ways for Sanctioned psykers to scale their PR in the earlygame. Making Sanctic and this almost a must take for any MC psyker early.

Sanctified Slayer is again great and on the right build will take you straight to 100% crit without needing any other crit talents.

Sanctic staff is decent but the damage is too random (1-X). Earlygame sanctic staff scales extremely well with resolve and actually does benefit from damage % unlike other sanctic powers, but still suffers from the lack of consistency in killing enemies.

Overall i'd give this 4/5, would be 5/5 if fights lasted longer and purge soul and Sword of Faith actually benefited from damage % increases. It's still one of the 2 better disciplines which leads us to...

5. Telepathy 4/5

Psychic shriek is excellent damage that bypasses armour and dodge and benefits from damage % increase unlike Purge Soul. it still doesn't crit and doesn't work on turrets but you can't have everything.

Sensory deprivation is meh, but is still one of the better buffs/debuffs of all the disciplines. Useful for making enemies you can't kill immediately (if any) less dangerous and mostly sees use in act 1. In act 3+ you can make it deal damage with Malign Influence while not counting as an attack.

Dominate is just downright terrbile though and I have no idea why I would evel pick it. Maybe if there were some chase missions where enemies run from you and are too tanky to oneshot, idk. Imo it needs a rework.

Mind Bond is likewise terrible since it only affects stats tests, a very niche application. If it outright let bonded characters use each other's mental stats whichever are higher it would be quite solid though (and that's my suggestion how to fix it).

Psychic Assault is one of the best AoE powers, Psychic Shriek damage + stun (if anything survived that is) + good area.

Mind Rupture is basically a Psychic shriek+, you don't care much about enemies attacking each other but the willpower save can proc some other nice things like Mind Siege and Malign Influence, plus it being a major power works better if you want to run a high peril build e.g. Idira.

Talking about passives Aftershock is good on paper but since you prefer to kill things before they get a turn it doesn't see play much in later acts.

Mental Breach is ok if you really want to land soem Willpower based effects like Telepathy staves.

Mind Siege is bugged and deals impact damage, but it's still ok for a little bit of extra damage even if it's pretty bad vs armor.

Mind Thief is very marginal, debuff is not noticeable for most enemies and neither the buffs for you are all that good. But it's barely passable as a lategame pick if you don't have anything better.

Pain Channeling is excellent and a great source of extra damage, apart from a couple of bugs. Namely it will backfire if there's only one enemy left on the map and it can benefit from your damage % increases, meaning your damage can actually be multiplied by them twice. E.g. if you attack an enemy with 1 hp dealing 200 damage with a +400% damage bonus the pain chanelling damage will amount to 4995 damage which is a bit silly and doable quite early into the game. The backfire bug is annoying but manageable, worst case you eat an injury.

Visions of Doom is too slow to be any good, it assumes you'll be casting 10s of powers on a boss which just isn't happening.

Warp Minds is similar to mind thief in that it's a pretty marginal debuff that you'll maybe trigger a few times per combat, if you use your psyker as carry and feed them all the extra action powers, but still -20 or 25 stats for the last enemies can be ok-sh.

Weak Hearts is one more of these low impact talents that you can take if there's nothing better.

Telepathy staff is great for killing bosses actually, especially on an Assassin, but you need to invest into save and/or stat reduction. If you do, you can kill things in a couple of attacks pretty much regardless of their health though.

Overall I'd give this 4/5 like Sanctic, mostly cause the choice between Domination and Sensory Deprivation is pretty sad early on and some bugs with Mind Siege having a wrong damage type and Pain Channeling backfiring. This is definitely one of the best disciplines together with Sanctic and likely the best ranged psychic power damage discipline, with only pyro staff being the other strong contender.


I haven't rated any discipline 5/5 as of now I reserve that rating for something that would be fullly functional and wouldn't have broken/trap talents and weak filler powers you have to take to progress to the ones you want. It's possible that with future patches some will achieve it though.

[Seswatha]

Limz님이 먼저 게시:

Ignite being 1 AP means you can fish with Sacred Rituals and combine it with things like Tactical Knowledge and Skirmisher's Boots means that you can clear the map faster than anyone else can with Heroic/Desperate Finest Hour in acts 1 and 2.

Molten Beam also should be noted for its range and I am pretty sure it gets extended by that talent that extends spells by perception bonus which means it's going to be one of the hardest hitting sniper attacks.

Orchestrate Flames doesn't work as you think it does; it literally adds another attack which can have ride on effects. Such as adding Killing Edge damage for both primary and follow up attacks, it can also crit on its own and because it acts as two attacks it can stack things like Vulnerability on an assassin.

Inflame is not a traditional DoT build either since it hits the entire screen so long as something is on fire, if it stays in its current condition then it will have a place once everything else gets nerfed. This would be most likely the weakest spell in the list.

incinerate is also pretty strong since it gets its base damage from 2x Ignite + Half of whatever is on fire which includes teammates making it the strongest 2ap single target nuke in the game at baseline. This matters on things such as when you stack operatives or if you want to rack up a high multiplier.

Firestorm gets base damage increase from abilities like Psychic Barrage and Tac Knowledge, so it's actually a solid AoE. It's also 1AP which can be used to fish with Sacred Rites or used in conjunction with Finest Hour to end up net positive AP after 11 or so attacks.

With regards to Orchestrate flames - there's a lot of weird stuff going on there, and some on-hit effects double proc with or without it, e.g. the pendant that adds warp damage in melee always procs twice in the same way Orchestrate flame does. I do know it benefits from damage buffs on its own, even sword of faith affects it, that's how you get to crazy damages. However it's hard to tell what's a bug and what isn't there. As I already said I do think it's very good and probably the best Pyro power in its niche.

I haven't tried to go all out with Inflame yet, maybe you can get some build going, but the damage just seems too low and setup too heavy to make it competitive. I'll try to experiment with some builds and gear and see how far I can take it tho.

Iginte, Firestorm and Incinerate just feel worse than Telepathy and the generic chain lighting staff a lot of the time (I've run Telepathy/Pyro on idira for a time). 1 AP is only nice if you oneshot with it, which needs a lot of damage stacking, generally it's easier to oneshot things with Shiek and overkill them for a bunch to kill a 2nd target with pain channelling and likewise good lighting staves do way more damage than Firestorm. But if you're up against really low health mobs it can be decent for AP economy, sure. In practice I feel like I've used telepathy and chain lighting a lot more (with firestorm you also have to account that you need to set it up so that you actually have burning targets in the first place). Incinerate in my experience is outscaled by Telepathy that scales like PR * WP bonus and even Sanctic that scales like PR * Resolve / X, whereas Pyro scales like 10 * PR + WP bonus, so kind of linear versus almost quadratic scaling since you can scale both stats in the first 2 cases. Pyro staff is also better since it can crit and multiplies flat damage bonuses by the number of projectiles.

[Seswatha]

Zaris님이 먼저 게시:

Telepathy / Idira can reach stupid high dmg numbers like 9000 (youtube build guide) so i would rate that more like 11 / 5.

I've ran a similar build to that guide before that was even published (as an Assassin though). 9k is a bit of an overkill on it though, practically you'll finish all fights earlier than you can scale to that kind of a number, but 4k+ per hit you can see sometimes and it ignores any armor or dodge. It's one of the best damage dealers for sure but there are others on a similar level.

My main issues with Telepathy is that the powers between Psychic Shriek and Psychic Assault are rather underwhelming so levels when you take these don't feel good. And a few other things like Mind Siege and Pain Chanelling bugs. But I do think it's one of the better disciplines overall which is reflected in my rating.

[Seswatha]

REhorror님이 먼저 게시:

I'm builing Heinrix as a buffer/healer, I'm not sure if Vanguard is better than Arch-militant for him.

I need some back-up in case I send Yrliet away for her crime.

Gracey Face님이 먼저 게시:

REhorror님이 먼저 게시:

I'm builing Heinrix as a buffer/healer, I'm not sure if Vanguard is better than Arch-militant for him.

I need some back-up in case I send Yrliet away for her crime.

As far as I can tell vangard kind of sucks. Warrior gives you better damage mitigation because it stacks more and arch militant gives you better armor and dodge, again because it stacks more.

Vangards primary skill only stacking up to 15 and only working when enemies target you (so if you just take a small number of big hits it gives you less value) seems kind of wank.

AM Heinrix is great both as a tank and as a damage dealer. Unlike Vanguard your mechanics allow you to buff up proactively rather than reactively, which is a massive advantage. Cautious approach also gives status effects immunity, which a "tank" Vanguard lacks. Though tbh I've skipped it, you get enough defense from other sources and all out offense is better anyway.

The whole concept of Vanguard is backwards imo, it's a tank that needs to be hit to get better at tanking. But to be able to take hits you want to be tanky already. If Vanguard had alternative ways of stacking unyielding beacon it would be a lot better, but the only way is getting hit. You can abuse aoos for it sometimes but it's still weak and gimmicky.

One interesting Vanguard mechanic that works upfront is temp hp stacking, and you can get something going with it if you combo it with Malpian Shroud, however Vanguards lack crit and damage % boosts to truly take it to competitive levels of damage. It can be competitive in early act 2 since you don't need much to get it to work tho, but it falls off pretty fast later.

Overall I do think Vanguard is the worst and conceptually pointless archetype. A proper tank archetype would need to have more passive defense buffs as well as either an ability to passively taunt enemies by positioning next to them or some way to win initiative rolls, cause tanks that go last don't do their job. Of course you could have an officer grant them a turn but then you might as well grant it to your dps and remove the problem at the source rather than trying to tank it. Tank/CC archetypes need high initiative (or somehow being able to do their job passively by positioning and just being there), and CC characters like Cassia, support Pascal Build or suport psyker officers can get it via Grand Strategist but Vanguard tanks are out of luck.

[Altair1243]

Seswatha님이 먼저 게시:

corisai님이 먼저 게시:

Yes, and you're simply ignoring unique companions. So whole rating is based on MC in a role of pure warp damage dealer. That's a very narrow viewpoint and indeed no school is suited for it.


And you don't need those DoTs to make absolutely OP Soldier from Pyro. Again - you're ranking schools by their ability to create "pure Psyker" and ignore synergy with guns.

I rate them based on how satisfactory it is to invest into them, and account for all builds like it can be seen in my comments in the original post where i consider using powers, staves, guns etc.

"Gun Pyro" basically takes Blazing Inferno (maybe, since there are other ways to reach 100% crit fast so this is just one of the options) and Melting Armor, it would take Fire Within most likely if it wasn't bugged (having currently bugged abilities does reduce my rating). But that's about it. You won't really be using any of the powers, the only other thing you can consider is Pyro staff which will hit pretty damn hard on an arch militant when it gets +1.5 x BS mod to damage. Overall as I said, having a couple of useful passives for a particular playstyle doesn't give it a high rating, when you're not really incentivised to learn any powers.

MC damage dealer psyker is actually quite decent since the latest patch if you go full dogmatic (or heretic, but only super late game), you can reach like 13 PR with gear alone and much more in combat if you spam some renewable heroic acts. Idira is still better but MC can be quite solid there. But I do consider Idira too I don't think any of that drastically changes with her except she wants to spam more powers and can do more damage. She has an extra talent but I'm not even sure if it's Divination or just her general background. And spreaking of her Divination you kind of don't have a choice anyway, but I would say that taking any more Divination powers on her is mostly a waste, Fatebringer & Advice and Guidance talents you can pick at some point, but not wanting to take any further powers from a discipline after the starter one doesn't scream "a good discipline" to me.

Again, I rate these on how good it feels to actually invest into them rather than just take the starter power and cherry pick a few passives, they're all good for that. Regardless of what type of build you're using it for, e.g. full Sanctic is mostly good if you're at least somewhat competent in melee, but then it's actually rewarding to go all the way and pick a good number of things from it.

On paper rating something by how good it "feels" sounds good but it's actually not really very practical. First of all, "feelings" are relative so what feels good/bad to you may not be the same to others - As an example, I personally don't find much of an issue with Divination but I do agree that Sanctic seems pretty good all around. Secondly, Psykers aren't an insta-win in 40k so it does kinda make sense that they can do fantastical things but are ultimately still "human" (we'll use that word somewhat loosely) and subject to many of the common causes of mortal downfall (Ambushes, critical trauma, ageing, vice, etc...) so the fact that the powers just add spice to the system makes them all seem valuable to me because ONLY Psykers can do those things and they are naturally limited in what disciplines they can learn/how far into those trees they can get at the expense of their other abilities - A case of utility vs specialization and how far you want/should commit to give you the support you want

That's not necessarily something you can feel out, that's more the thing you'd need empirical data to get a measure of how much exactly it's benefiting you taking into account some potentially niche situations

[Seswatha]

Altair1243님이 먼저 게시:

Seswatha님이 먼저 게시:

I rate them based on how satisfactory it is to invest into them, and account for all builds like it can be seen in my comments in the original post where i consider using powers, staves, guns etc.

"Gun Pyro" basically takes Blazing Inferno (maybe, since there are other ways to reach 100% crit fast so this is just one of the options) and Melting Armor, it would take Fire Within most likely if it wasn't bugged (having currently bugged abilities does reduce my rating). But that's about it. You won't really be using any of the powers, the only other thing you can consider is Pyro staff which will hit pretty damn hard on an arch militant when it gets +1.5 x BS mod to damage. Overall as I said, having a couple of useful passives for a particular playstyle doesn't give it a high rating, when you're not really incentivised to learn any powers.

MC damage dealer psyker is actually quite decent since the latest patch if you go full dogmatic (or heretic, but only super late game), you can reach like 13 PR with gear alone and much more in combat if you spam some renewable heroic acts. Idira is still better but MC can be quite solid there. But I do consider Idira too I don't think any of that drastically changes with her except she wants to spam more powers and can do more damage. She has an extra talent but I'm not even sure if it's Divination or just her general background. And spreaking of her Divination you kind of don't have a choice anyway, but I would say that taking any more Divination powers on her is mostly a waste, Fatebringer & Advice and Guidance talents you can pick at some point, but not wanting to take any further powers from a discipline after the starter one doesn't scream "a good discipline" to me.

Again, I rate these on how good it feels to actually invest into them rather than just take the starter power and cherry pick a few passives, they're all good for that. Regardless of what type of build you're using it for, e.g. full Sanctic is mostly good if you're at least somewhat competent in melee, but then it's actually rewarding to go all the way and pick a good number of things from it.

On paper rating something by how good it "feels" sounds good but it's actually not really very practical. First of all, "feelings" are relative so what feels good/bad to you may not be the same to others - As an example, I personally don't find much of an issue with Divination but I do agree that Sanctic seems pretty good all around. Secondly, Psykers aren't an insta-win in 40k so it does kinda make sense that they can do fantastical things but are ultimately still "human" (we'll use that word somewhat loosely) and subject to many of the common causes of mortal downfall (Ambushes, critical trauma, ageing, vice, etc...) so the fact that the powers just add spice to the system makes them all seem valuable to me because ONLY Psykers can do those things and they are naturally limited in what disciplines they can learn/how far into those trees they can get at the expense of their other abilities - A case of utility vs specialization and how far you want/should commit to give you the support you want

That's not necessarily something you can feel out, that's more the thing you'd need empirical data to get a measure of how much exactly it's benefiting you taking into account some potentially niche situations

All our opinions are subjective. Furthermore I don't expect any of the disciplines or powers to be ridiculously OP or anything, but I do want most of them (or, ideally, all of them) to be useful at least in a certain niche build context or even generally useful. At the moment, a lot of them aren't. The disciplines that are more "useable" get higher rating, the disciplines that are less (where you only get 1 or 2 pickable powers) get lower rating, if that makes sense.

[KîNG]

You failed to point out that Mind Rupture for the Telepath is also bugged. On a failed save, the target enemy will just run around instead of attacking his ally.

[Red Star, Blood Moon]

I really do wish I spent at least some time looking at builds, I wasn't doing an impossible difficulty so I didn't think it'd matter needing to be optimized as much and maybe I'd get to reroll although I now am realizing that I think it's only my character I can respec.

Thanks OP.

The thing is this feels a bit more confusing for builds than Pathfinder games, like I mean man that was DENSE quite possibly the crunchiest, most aut character thing I ever seen and I loved the granular stuff despite I probably spent more time on character leveling screens than anywhere. This is way more simple, but I've had to reload a bunch of times to try picking certain skills especially some of the psyker ones to try and see what unlocks.

Seswatha님이 먼저 게시:

corisai님이 먼저 게시:

Seeing no 5/5 marking your "rating" as alredy biased - you're expecting only absolutely broken OP stuff, lol.

Marking Divination as 2/5, who have magnificent bonus on dodge and BS/WS PLUS passive APen to whole team is

Marking Pyro as 3/5, that used to make a strongest damage dealer in the game (Pyro/Soldier/ArchMilitant burst fire) is another face-palm.

I explained why there's no 5/5 rating - having one or two OP abilities or passives does not make it 5/5 for how I rate these. It has to be satisfying to invest into all the way rather than just picking one or two passives or waiting for 20+ levels to reach your first good power while being forced to take bad ones.

Divination basically has one good power out of five - the very first one. I also wouldn't call it "magnificent", in the earlygame it's like +10% dodge and parry and by lategame it might get to like +40-50% once you buff up your psyker but at that point in the game it's mostly overkill and only really useful to buff lethality anyway with how the game plays. Advice & Guidance I think is idira exclusive and not Divination. Armor pen party buff is good as I already said in the review but one decent power and one good passive don't make it a good discipline to build around, you just take the basic power and the passive and leave it at that if you bother at all.

Over half of Pyro is built around DoTs which just aren't a thing with how the game works. So again, it's mostly good to dip to get a couple more decent passives to buff up your burst weapon, maybe access to pyro staff if you want to use it instead. Or on a melee/suport for melee you want to get Orchestrate flames to get fire damage to your melee attacks. That's pretty much it. If you run a psyker as support maybe you can grab the beam to debuff armor, though honestly pyro staff with melting armor passive might just do it better.

My experience so far has been that DoT is not completely useless, in fact a lot of my builds in games for some reason often ends with if I can't do high DpS then I do ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of DoT. In retrospect I don't know why I do this, since the safer, less stupider option is to systematically pick guys off and concentrate fire to lower your damage, but then I can't always do that. Also, placement matters and LoS so you can't always just take a dude out in one turn.

Prior to level 10, flamethrowers is so damn OP. I don't even bother using bolters on Argenta now. It does super high damage that a lot of the time by the time their next turn is up they burned to death anyway...and also because killing it all with fire seems a definite Dogmatic thing to do. Which is quite funny considering I'm literalyl doing the same with Idira, they can hate each other all they want while being more like each other. Pyro options are extremely potent if you just want a classic wizard/sorcerer type build, unless you're going for some Bard-lite or Priest type build but the healers seem fairly weak imo.

I'm trying to figure out if there's a way of optimizing some of my officer builds to doing lots of buffs with extra AP and extra stats for the extra turns I gave party members, also trying to figure out how to get Cassia and maybe some others doing stacks of lots of debuff and damage when I use AoE as I'm only just now unlocking lots of AoE type strikes on characters.

Gracey Face님이 먼저 게시:

The sanctic staff is actually really good on a Master Tactician because it allows you to do 3 attacks a turn with it (1 straight attack, then 2 from your repeatable heroic) which because you can buff the damage so high that it reduces your chance of rolling below the enemies HP to a very low amount this leads to guaranteed kills on everything in your firestorm box and then a bunch of pain channeling/theotheronethatspreadsdamage procs.

It'd presumably be even better if your first class was a soldier, or if any of the things that are supposed to allow you to ignore your attack limit actually worked.

What else helps with giving more AP?

[Red Star, Blood Moon]

Altair1243님이 먼저 게시:

Seswatha님이 먼저 게시:

I rate them based on how satisfactory it is to invest into them, and account for all builds like it can be seen in my comments in the original post where i consider using powers, staves, guns etc.

"Gun Pyro" basically takes Blazing Inferno (maybe, since there are other ways to reach 100% crit fast so this is just one of the options) and Melting Armor, it would take Fire Within most likely if it wasn't bugged (having currently bugged abilities does reduce my rating). But that's about it. You won't really be using any of the powers, the only other thing you can consider is Pyro staff which will hit pretty damn hard on an arch militant when it gets +1.5 x BS mod to damage. Overall as I said, having a couple of useful passives for a particular playstyle doesn't give it a high rating, when you're not really incentivised to learn any powers.

MC damage dealer psyker is actually quite decent since the latest patch if you go full dogmatic (or heretic, but only super late game), you can reach like 13 PR with gear alone and much more in combat if you spam some renewable heroic acts. Idira is still better but MC can be quite solid there. But I do consider Idira too I don't think any of that drastically changes with her except she wants to spam more powers and can do more damage. She has an extra talent but I'm not even sure if it's Divination or just her general background. And spreaking of her Divination you kind of don't have a choice anyway, but I would say that taking any more Divination powers on her is mostly a waste, Fatebringer & Advice and Guidance talents you can pick at some point, but not wanting to take any further powers from a discipline after the starter one doesn't scream "a good discipline" to me.

Again, I rate these on how good it feels to actually invest into them rather than just take the starter power and cherry pick a few passives, they're all good for that. Regardless of what type of build you're using it for, e.g. full Sanctic is mostly good if you're at least somewhat competent in melee, but then it's actually rewarding to go all the way and pick a good number of things from it.

On paper rating something by how good it "feels" sounds good but it's actually not really very practical. First of all, "feelings" are relative so what feels good/bad to you may not be the same to others - As an example, I personally don't find much of an issue with Divination but I do agree that Sanctic seems pretty good all around. Secondly, Psykers aren't an insta-win in 40k so it does kinda make sense that they can do fantastical things but are ultimately still "human" (we'll use that word somewhat loosely) and subject to many of the common causes of mortal downfall (Ambushes, critical trauma, ageing, vice, etc...) so the fact that the powers just add spice to the system makes them all seem valuable to me because ONLY Psykers can do those things and they are naturally limited in what disciplines they can learn/how far into those trees they can get at the expense of their other abilities - A case of utility vs specialization and how far you want/should commit to give you the support you want

That's not necessarily something you can feel out, that's more the thing you'd need empirical data to get a measure of how much exactly it's benefiting you taking into account some potentially niche situations

Should point out I also like the fact that, much as Mandalore's description of I forget if it's Tyranny or WOTR but was "this isn't just casting spells this is doing Magick, dangerous and powerful magicks that can accidentally cause it to rain blood." Which is precisely what i feels like with this, these aren't safe LOLs, this is the much more dangerous LULZ, this here is wild magicks that actually can kill you and accidentally summon demons and ♥♥♥♥. You don't even need your veil degradation bar that high before Idira starts nuking half her hitpoints on some failed roll when using psyker powers.

So to new players just keep this in mind with psyker builds, it's not so much like missing on a 83% chance in XCOM, it's more like you roll a natural 1 in DnD and that 83% chance becomes you shooting yourself in the eye and dropping a grenade at your own feet.

[wei270]

corisai님이 먼저 게시:

Seeing no 5/5 marking your "rating" as alredy biased - you're expecting only absolutely broken OP stuff, lol.

Marking Divination as 2/5, who have magnificent bonus on dodge and BS/WS PLUS passive APen to whole team is

Marking Pyro as 3/5, that used to make a strongest damage dealer in the game (Pyro/Soldier/ArchMilitant burst fire) is another face-palm.

there is 5/5 one and that is telekinesis but it is unable in its current state, its staff is the best too, it damages enemy and pull them toward the center. however againt it is unable at current.

[Hidetsugu]

REhorror님이 먼저 게시:

I'm builing Heinrix as a buffer/healer, I'm not sure if Vanguard is better than Arch-militant for him.

I need some back-up in case I send Yrliet away for her crime.

I tried such build on him in 1 of my unfair Iconoclast runs. It's somewhat weird, but works. Especially if your party stacks armor with frontline/combat locus & tactical knowledge. Sanctic staff, Eyes of Joyeuse helmet. FEL/WILL stats, some STR for the heavy armor proficiency so he can be good tank too. And since Assassin & AM gain nothing from this, I chose Vanguard for the +resolve if/when he gets poked. Pure psyker/common traits.