Soldier is a better warrior

[talemore]

Soldier has high agility

It goes into arch militant

Has charge as part of run and gun

Dodge is superior to deflection

Cover give extra dodge, as warrior you are just standing in an open field no matter if you use cover.

[wei270]

yeah i play on hard too it is just that agentra can down most bosses in one turn while the biggest limitation of my melee damage seems to be the fact that after that one powerfull charge+ reckless attack, you only have that one tab melee.

no matter how hard i try i can't never get a non psy melee to march the dps of agentra bolter burst.

[Seswatha]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by talemore:

you won't get any willpower attribute from warrior. at least not today,

Santic scales from Psy-Rating and Resolve, you could skil a Willpower for him. And Pyro AFAIK used mostly for talents that again don't need WP.

Pyro is mostly used for Orchestrate flames self-burn, adds a ton of fire damage on your melee (or "melee") attacks.

Lategame Heinrix casually be hitting for 2k direct damage and another 3k fire damage when he gets going.

Originally posted by wei270:

yeah i play on hard too it is just that agentra can down most bosses in one turn while the biggest limitation of my melee damage seems to be the fact that after that one powerfull charge+ reckless attack, you only have that one tab melee.

no matter how hard i try i can't never get a non psy melee to march the dps of agentra bolter burst.

You're not really gonna match a buffed up burst build on single target, but you can still get a ton of free slashes that kill most regular enemies plus single target damage in the thousands. Melee does work a lot better with psykers tho. For big damage try to maximize dodge & lethality and use killing edge on an opening.

[gurugeorge]

I think a Warrior Vanguard (e.g. Abelard or the player) can be really helpful on Unfair, because your other characters are very squishy at that difficulty - which is why lots of people use the rather boring 2xOfficer-based (3 if you include Cassie, but it would be a waste of potential to lean into Officer for her build) Unfair strat of ensuring Argenta can snipe everyone to death before the enemy even gets their turn.

But if you're not into Officer cheese, you can build a Warrior Vanguard to be able to grab the attention of a lot of mobs with Taunt, in quite the old MMO style, and be mobile enough to get into a good position for that, and tanky enough to take their "alpha strike" (even if you might need to heal a bit after their initial attacks), and if you position right then the rest of the team can mop them up (either Cassia if positioned right, or Argenta, or both). The Warrior's own Thunder Hammer (and later similar) AoEs are not to be sniffed at either, and they can easily finish off a little group that's already had much of its health chipped away.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by tempest.of.emptiness:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Except it is, due to how combat actually works, in the game.

As I said, ridiculous.

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Run & Gun may be on a cooldown, but Charge is so conditional, you are not likely to be charging more than twice per combat.

Charge is never conditional, unless you are boxed into a corner by terrain and enemies. You always have the option to charge out of melee with one enemy toward or into melee with another. It doesn't require that you reach an enemy to attack, it just gives you that as a (very desirable) option.

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Also, the game HEAVILY favours damage builds, rather than Tank builds, so the overwhelming resilience of Warrior, does not amount to much when you are trying to maximize your round efficiency, and you mostly do it through damage.

You can build a Warrior for melee damage. That's what a Warrior/Assassin would be, for example. They have abilities and talents that are tailor-made for melee damage dealing. Soldier does not. Trying to play a Solder as a melee character is possible, but they are not better at it than a Warrior. All of their abilities and talents are designed for ranged combat;
there are some that also work for melee, which is good for Soldier/Arch-Militant planning to be able to do both melee and ranged, but not on par with what is available to Warriors.

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

You also get a very innexpensive Dash, if you really want to always be in melee range.

Dash is absolutely a fabulous power, and it does make getting into and out of melee easier. I'd take it on every Warrior if it were an option.

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Even the heroics of Soldier are better.

Firearm Mastery (the soldier heroic) gives 2 or more free attacks with a firearm. It does turn the first attack (with any weapon) against a new target into a crit, so I guess you can get some melee benefit out of it. Daring Breach (the warrior heroic) restores all move and AP, gives bonus MP equal to AGI, allows move after attacks, and allows unlimited (meaning limited only by AP) melee attacks.

Daring Breach is the clear winner for melee combat in my opinion.

Charge is conditional, the enemy must be at least at a certain distance, for you to be able Charge against them, otherwise it is a waste of 2 AP, since it's primary focus is closing in + a free attack, otherwise it is grossly overcosted for a mobility feature.

If the enemy is too close, you cannot Charge, and therefore you do not get as many attacks per turn as Soldier, on average, specially after a Taunt, and you are already surrounded, so there is nowhere to effeciently Charge to.

[The Seraph of Tomorrow]

This is what happens when the devs try to slap together pathfinder 40k, instead of porting over the table top rule system.

[Seswatha]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by tempest.of.emptiness:

As I said, ridiculous.



Charge is never conditional, unless you are boxed into a corner by terrain and enemies. You always have the option to charge out of melee with one enemy toward or into melee with another. It doesn't require that you reach an enemy to attack, it just gives you that as a (very desirable) option.



You can build a Warrior for melee damage. That's what a Warrior/Assassin would be, for example. They have abilities and talents that are tailor-made for melee damage dealing. Soldier does not. Trying to play a Solder as a melee character is possible, but they are not better at it than a Warrior. All of their abilities and talents are designed for ranged combat;
there are some that also work for melee, which is good for Soldier/Arch-Militant planning to be able to do both melee and ranged, but not on par with what is available to Warriors.



Dash is absolutely a fabulous power, and it does make getting into and out of melee easier. I'd take it on every Warrior if it were an option.



Firearm Mastery (the soldier heroic) gives 2 or more free attacks with a firearm. It does turn the first attack (with any weapon) against a new target into a crit, so I guess you can get some melee benefit out of it. Daring Breach (the warrior heroic) restores all move and AP, gives bonus MP equal to AGI, allows move after attacks, and allows unlimited (meaning limited only by AP) melee attacks.

Daring Breach is the clear winner for melee combat in my opinion.

Charge is conditional, the enemy must be at least at a certain distance, for you to be able Charge against them, otherwise it is a waste of 2 AP, since it's primary focus is closing in + a free attack, otherwise it is grossly overcosted for a mobility feature.

If the enemy is too close, you cannot Charge, and therefore you do not get as many attacks per turn as Soldier, on average, specially after a Taunt, and you are already surrounded, so there is nowhere to effeciently Charge to.

If the enemy is close you get Slash (multiple uses of it per turn), or you can just take a few steps back and Charge again. Run and Gun is also "conditional", to use it you can't be Winded.

Taunt is mostly useless since best builds kill enemies before they get a single turn. Gets a bit better on Exemplar Assassin with Malign Influence as an AoE nuke that stacks lethality and vulnerability and doesn't count as an attack.

[bitb0602]

Warrior is getting better, but still buggy.
Charge should simply cross all enemies and attack them for one time.

[Atech]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by tempest.of.emptiness:

As I said, ridiculous.



Charge is never conditional, unless you are boxed into a corner by terrain and enemies. You always have the option to charge out of melee with one enemy toward or into melee with another. It doesn't require that you reach an enemy to attack, it just gives you that as a (very desirable) option.



You can build a Warrior for melee damage. That's what a Warrior/Assassin would be, for example. They have abilities and talents that are tailor-made for melee damage dealing. Soldier does not. Trying to play a Solder as a melee character is possible, but they are not better at it than a Warrior. All of their abilities and talents are designed for ranged combat;
there are some that also work for melee, which is good for Soldier/Arch-Militant planning to be able to do both melee and ranged, but not on par with what is available to Warriors.



Dash is absolutely a fabulous power, and it does make getting into and out of melee easier. I'd take it on every Warrior if it were an option.



Firearm Mastery (the soldier heroic) gives 2 or more free attacks with a firearm. It does turn the first attack (with any weapon) against a new target into a crit, so I guess you can get some melee benefit out of it. Daring Breach (the warrior heroic) restores all move and AP, gives bonus MP equal to AGI, allows move after attacks, and allows unlimited (meaning limited only by AP) melee attacks.

Daring Breach is the clear winner for melee combat in my opinion.

If the enemy is too close, you cannot Charge, and therefore you do not get as many attacks per turn as Soldier, on average, specially after a Taunt, and you are already surrounded, so there is nowhere to effeciently Charge to.

Yes you can. You just need to take couple steps away and you can charge your target every turn.

So potentially you can get more attacks in than soldier on average.

[Ronin Gamer]

Originally posted by wei270:

yeah i play on hard too it is just that agentra can down most bosses in one turn while the biggest limitation of my melee damage seems to be the fact that after that one powerfull charge+ reckless attack, you only have that one tab melee.

no matter how hard i try i can't never get a non psy melee to march the dps of agentra bolter burst.

Not sure why you'd make a warrior and then attempt to focus super hard on dps over making them the frontline tank to draw attention so your gunners and psykers don't take all the attention to get swiss cheesed.
With that said, my warrior character has walloped an enemy team before in the mid game. But since I have two snipers and Argenta burst, I don't really need my melee dude dunking on guys, more so keeping some of them distracted.

[talemore]

Originally posted by Ronin Gamer:

Originally posted by wei270:

yeah i play on hard too it is just that agentra can down most bosses in one turn while the biggest limitation of my melee damage seems to be the fact that after that one powerfull charge+ reckless attack, you only have that one tab melee.

no matter how hard i try i can't never get a non psy melee to march the dps of agentra bolter burst.

Not sure why you'd make a warrior and then attempt to focus super hard on dps over making them the frontline tank to draw attention so your gunners and psykers don't take all the attention to get swiss cheesed.
With that said, my warrior character has walloped an enemy team before in the mid game. But since I have two snipers and Argenta burst, I don't really need my melee dude dunking on guys, more so keeping some of them distracted.

Lmao

For the simple reason why even have a sword on a warrior if all battles is going to be a hide and seek.

Turn 1, boss spray 12 shots into the warrior who instantly dies.

Turn 2 cassia gets her turn.

By the end of the game, if you reached this far and can't survive without a warrior, I don't believe they're honest.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Charge is conditional, the enemy must be at least at a certain distance, for you to be able Charge against them, otherwise it is a waste of 2 AP, since it's primary focus is closing in + a free attack, otherwise it is grossly overcosted for a mobility feature.

If the enemy is too close, you cannot Charge, and therefore you do not get as many attacks per turn as Soldier, on average, specially after a Taunt, and you are already surrounded, so there is nowhere to effeciently Charge to.

As I said, the enemy is never too close to charge if you are willing to back up - taking attacks of opportunity if necessary - and then charge.

Saying that Charge is a waste of 2 AP if you don't get the attack is wrong, and hypocritical unless you're also going to say that Run and Gun is a waste of 1 AP if you don't get the attack. You aren't saying that, though, because you're assuming that you are going to get the attack from Run and Gun no matter what, because you're using a ranged weapon as a soldier but pretending that somehow it is a melee build.

Soldier is definitely a better route for a ranged character than a Warrior; that isn't in debate.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by talemore:

For the simple reason why even have a sword on a warrior if all battles is going to be a hide and seek.

Turn 1, boss spray 12 shots into the warrior who instantly dies.

Turn 2 cassia gets her turn.

By the end of the game, if you reached this far and can't survive without a warrior, I don't believe they're honest.

You answered your own question. If the boss hadn't sprayed 12 shots into the Warrior they might have sprayed 12 shots into Cassia.

Then Cassia doesn't get a turn.

But that's talking about a Warrior as a tank. If you want to say Tanks are pointless that's something different. You didn't say tanks were pointless, you said solders are better warriors.

If you were trying to say "having a warrior on your team is a wasted opportunity to have a solder instead", that's not what you actually said.