Soldier is a better warrior

[talemore]

Soldier has high agility

It goes into arch militant

Has charge as part of run and gun

Dodge is superior to deflection

Cover give extra dodge, as warrior you are just standing in an open field no matter if you use cover.

[corisai]

引用自 dim128128：

so why shouldn't wildfire work on melee.

*Looking on skill name and icon* Dunno, probably because it's named "wildFIRE"? They should name it like "an Extra Attack" if it intended to be used in melee.

引用自 dim128128：

Both the arch-militant and the murderer are not even close - the first is S class, the second is at best B (if you compare them with each other)

Assassin-sniper is not a S-tier too? You're funny (and probably playing on Story).

[jonoliveira12]

引用自 corisai：

引用自 jonoliveira12：

Run & Gun, Revel in Slaughter, Firearms Mastery, Rapid Fire, Controlled Shot (excellent for bursts into enemies blocked by your party)...

Bug, mostly garbage (only crit chance is used for melee), garbage, garbage/bug as should't work with melee weapons.

And ... that's all?

引用自 jonoliveira12：

followed by Firearms Mastery.

And what I will do with FM? It doesn't provide extra moverment so garbage for melee.

FAM provides extra attacks, you can use Dash to move around enough.

[corisai]

引用自 jonoliveira12：

FAM provides extra attacks, you can use Dash to move around enough.

...
You can use Dash.
1 use per turn.
Nice advice, lol.

[dim128128]

引用自 corisai：

引用自 jonoliveira12：

Run & Gun, Revel in Slaughter, Firearms Mastery, Rapid Fire, Controlled Shot (excellent for bursts into enemies blocked by your party)...

Bug, mostly garbage (only crit chance is used for melee), garbage, garbage/bug as should't work with melee weapons.

And ... that's all?

引用自 jonoliveira12：

followed by Firearms Mastery.

And what I will do with FM? It doesn't provide extra moverment so garbage for melee.

okay, another idiot. The game explicitly says that this works for all types of attacks, but the voices in your head say that this is a bug. Think of it this way - for others this is an element that works as expected

[corisai]

引用自 dim128128：

okay, another idiot. The game explicitly says that this works for all types of attacks, but the voices in your head say that this is a bug. Think of it this way - for others this is an element that works as expected

I don't care for idiots that don't know english. I expect ability named "run and GUN" or "controlled SHOT" is never intended to work with melee attacks.

You're telling me that it's okay that bottle named "Salt" have a mustard inside =/

[tempest.of.emptiness]

引用自 jonoliveira12：

引用自 tempest.of.emptiness：

Warrior is a class focused on melee combat and surviving in melee combat. Soldier is not better at that.

Except it is, due to how combat actually works, in the game.

As I said, ridiculous.

引用自 jonoliveira12：

Run & Gun may be on a cooldown, but Charge is so conditional, you are not likely to be charging more than twice per combat.

Charge is never conditional, unless you are boxed into a corner by terrain and enemies. You always have the option to charge out of melee with one enemy toward or into melee with another. It doesn't require that you reach an enemy to attack, it just gives you that as a (very desirable) option.

引用自 jonoliveira12：

Also, the game HEAVILY favours damage builds, rather than Tank builds, so the overwhelming resilience of Warrior, does not amount to much when you are trying to maximize your round efficiency, and you mostly do it through damage.

You can build a Warrior for melee damage. That's what a Warrior/Assassin would be, for example. They have abilities and talents that are tailor-made for melee damage dealing. Soldier does not. Trying to play a Solder as a melee character is possible, but they are not better at it than a Warrior. All of their abilities and talents are designed for ranged combat;
there are some that also work for melee, which is good for Soldier/Arch-Militant planning to be able to do both melee and ranged, but not on par with what is available to Warriors.

引用自 jonoliveira12：

You also get a very innexpensive Dash, if you really want to always be in melee range.

Dash is absolutely a fabulous power, and it does make getting into and out of melee easier. I'd take it on every Warrior if it were an option.

引用自 jonoliveira12：

Even the heroics of Soldier are better.

Firearm Mastery (the soldier heroic) gives 2 or more free attacks with a firearm. It does turn the first attack (with any weapon) against a new target into a crit, so I guess you can get some melee benefit out of it. Daring Breach (the warrior heroic) restores all move and AP, gives bonus MP equal to AGI, allows move after attacks, and allows unlimited (meaning limited only by AP) melee attacks.

Daring Breach is the clear winner for melee combat in my opinion.

[Seswatha]

引用自 jonoliveira12：

引用自 Seswatha：

Warrior can do up to 11 melee attacks under daring breach, after doing god knows how many on their turn (slash is free of attack cap and is bascially 1.5 attacks with stalking boots)

11 Melee Attacks, but they are all the basic one. Soldier can do 3-5 AoE ones, and just clear the map.
If you want a boss killer (11 single target attacks per round), you just do the Cassia + Pasqal combo.

Soldiers can stack up the bodies of tons of enemies per tirn, while Warriors cannot. In this game, where heroics really shine, getting more kills faster, is better than 11 attacks on a single opponent, or small group of people (because there is no way you will reach 11 targets, even if you could kill each with a single swing, but you can easily do it with the AoE from Power Weapons, and Soldier uses that more often).

It's 11 any attacks that count as a melee weapon attacks, which includes ranged aoe Sanctic lightsaber attacks. Actually I'm not even sure 11 is the cap, I think I've seen more, 11 is the cap for Finest Hour. Lategame Sanctic/Pyro psyker with Daring Breach is insanely strong..

[tempest.of.emptiness]

引用自 jonoliveira12：

It is viable, it is just not optimal, and even if you want a strictly Melee build, Soldier does that better, as it can do more attacks.

Not more attacks than a Warrior with Slash in a target-rich environment.

引用自 jonoliveira12：

It is not the Ranged class, since Operative is more the Sniper build that you would want on a true "Ranged" class.

You can make a soldier sniper, for example soldier/bounty hunter. However, it is probably fair to say that operative/assassin would put out more raw sniper damage.

The fact that some other class makes a better sniper doesn't turn soldier in to a melee class, though.

Soldiers are a true ranged class, because using a gun to shoot something five squares away is ranged combat.

引用自 jonoliveira12：

No. In this game Warrior means damage sponge fronliner, while Sodier is damage dealer frontliner.

Those are examples of how you might build them, not the only option.

引用自 jonoliveira12：

引用自 corisai：

Show to me any tools that Soldier have for dealing melee damage?

Run & Gun, Revel in Slaughter, Firearms Mastery, Rapid Fire, Controlled Shot (excellent for bursts into enemies blocked by your party)...

There are no melee burst attacks. If you fire a burst attack at range zero (with the talent to allow it) it is still a ranged attack.

Run & Gun can be used to make an extra melee attack. Firearms Mastery can turn melee attacks into crits. Revel in Slaughter does improve melee attacks, but not as much as it improves ranged attacks.

Rapid Fire only affects burst attacks, not melee attacks.

Controlled Shot doesn't do anything even for ranged attacks to increase damage. It is for limiting damage to friendly targets hit by your burst attacks.

You are right that there are some tools that a Soldier has that boost their melee damage and/or number of melee attacks. It is possible to use a saw as a hammer, too. The tools that Soldiers get are primarily intended as ranged combat tools, and some of them also happen to have benefits that spill over to melee.

That doesn't make them better Warriors than Warriors. That was the original premise of this thread, that claim, that Solders are better Warriors than Warriors. Not that they are better damage dealers that Warriors (which is probably true), but that they are better Warriors than Warriors. That is not true.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

引用自 talemore：

Soldier has high agility

You can raise your agility as a warrior, same as for a solder. For example, Warrior/Assassin might want a high agility.

引用自 talemore：

It goes into arch militant

Warrior can also go into arch-militant.

引用自 talemore：

Has charge as part of run and gun

That doesn't make them better at being a Warrior. At best, it makes them even.

引用自 talemore：

Dodge is superior to deflection

As I said above, Warrior can focus agility for high dodge. Being a Warrior doesn't force you to wear heavy armor and stack deflection.

引用自 talemore：

Cover give extra dodge, as warrior you are just standing in an open field no matter if you use cover.

There are some situations in which it is possible to engage a target in melee while being in cover from some or all of your other enemies. That isn't reliable, though, so you are right that most of the time you are going to be out of cover.

If you made a melee Soldier as a replacement for a Warrior, though, you'd be doing the same thing. This isn't really a reason that Soldiers are better Warriors, it is a reason that ranged is safer than melee. That's not the same thing.

-------------

Seriously, why are we even debating this? Its a ridiculous premise supported by sketchy or outright false "facts".

If you want to use Soldiers instead of Warriors because you like ranged damage, go for it. Soldiers don't have to be "better Warriors" in order to legitimize that choice.

[talemore]

引用自 Seswatha：

引用自 jonoliveira12：

11 Melee Attacks, but they are all the basic one. Soldier can do 3-5 AoE ones, and just clear the map.
If you want a boss killer (11 single target attacks per round), you just do the Cassia + Pasqal combo.

Soldiers can stack up the bodies of tons of enemies per tirn, while Warriors cannot. In this game, where heroics really shine, getting more kills faster, is better than 11 attacks on a single opponent, or small group of people (because there is no way you will reach 11 targets, even if you could kill each with a single swing, but you can easily do it with the AoE from Power Weapons, and Soldier uses that more often).

It's 11 any attacks that count as a melee weapon attacks, which includes ranged aoe Sanctic lightsaber attacks. Actually I'm not even sure 11 is the cap, I think I've seen more, 11 is the cap for Finest Hour. Lategame Sanctic/Pyro psyker with Daring Breach is insanely strong..

you won't get any willpower attribute from warrior. at least not today,

[talemore]

It's not bugs, the game work just the way it was programmed to do.

[corisai]

引用自 talemore：

you won't get any willpower attribute from warrior. at least not today,

Santic scales from Psy-Rating and Resolve, you could skil a Willpower for him. And Pyro AFAIK used mostly for talents that again don't need WP.

[Cutlass Jack]

引用自 talemore：

引用自 Seswatha：

It's 11 any attacks that count as a melee weapon attacks, which includes ranged aoe Sanctic lightsaber attacks. Actually I'm not even sure 11 is the cap, I think I've seen more, 11 is the cap for Finest Hour. Lategame Sanctic/Pyro psyker with Daring Breach is insanely strong..

you won't get any willpower attribute from warrior. at least not today,

Psyker adds Willpower as a raisable stat to any archtype.

[Nickname0329]

I believe the opposite. Warrior gets more flat damage increases and is far tankier, outscales Soldier, which primarily sees use in the early part of the game before second archetype. The best part about soldier later is Rapid Reload. Adding +15 to your base damage from Desolation eventually just means more. Clumping for Camaraderie is good early but ultimately its limiting.

Also eventually the Direct damage of the Sword of Faith scales quicker than basically anything in the game, does direct damage and is technically a psyker ability which means it benefits from a lot of talents and equipment you're probably not thinking about. Eventually you just wack everything with the glowing sword and it explodes.

And then Daring Breech is probably the second strongest Heroic in the game, basically allowing for more attacks than you will ever need to finish a combat.

Also dodge is complete garbage as a defensive stat, its good for lethality though.

[Neoz]

引用自 corisai：

引用自 rorek55：

Arch militant is a better progression for a melee warrior than assassin IMO outside very specific circumstances.

a) And big fat issues with keep going with stacks as 2AP aoe is quite expensive (and limit your choice of weapons).
b) Where are yours 2 extra attacks? Wildfire is 2-3AP usually (and shouldn't work with melee attack by it's naming). You're not going to dump tons of extra turn on melee character, it's killing it's purpose.

While Assassin in comparision is entirely self-sufficient (especially psyker one).

I've played multiple Arch mils on hard. Melee is fine. Works even better for sword/pistol builds, or hybrids.

wildfire is an easy 2ap max thanks to reckless rush, thats 2 attacks, heroic action, that's 3 attacks. Though, you're better off going warrior heroic action into arch mil heroic action. you can easily hit 3 attacks a turn in round 1. And thats just base. Assassin is gonna get there one big hit a turn solo, arch mil will be getting 2-3.