Malice is a terrible, terrible fight (act 3 spoilers)

[Nukesnipe]

I don't mean that Malice isn't a fun fight, I mean that Malice is a badly designed fight at its core. You have none of your good equipment, you're stuck with permanent debuffs and might have even gotten MORE if you had the audacity to try to open boxes. You're restricted to two companions that you have no control over who you get, as the ones chosen seem to always be from your party before you were kidnapped and go down a list (for instance, if you have Ylriet, Argenta and Pasqal, you'll always find Ylriet and Argenta first).

Did you have the audacity to not build Argenta as a melee tank? Too bad! Now you have to deal with a bunch of melee enemies with no melee tank of your own. Did you spec into using plasma, melta or any other rare weapons? Sucks to be you, use this M40 autogun and a shuriken catapult you might not even be able to use!

I like hard games. I'm fine with difficulty spike sections. I'd be annoyed if Commorragh, the actual worst place in existence (and I'm including physical Hell where daemons are from in that ranking) was a really easy walk in the park. I get why it's hard... but this isn't hard. It goes beyond being unfair and unfun. It's just badly designed. The game is built around you breaking the action economy over your knee in order to win tough fights, and you just can't do that here.

[Morgian]

Well, as usual it comes down how you handle your abilities. Even with the miserable weapons is the Malice fight doable. I finished it even before the commissar could intervene.
The companions seem to have an order in which they are found and the game lets them appear just in order. I also got Yrliet and Argenta back on my first run. It was not hard since my character was an officer. I am on my second run as a soldier and I killed Yrliet. So will be interesting to see who i get. Probably Pascal, who is usually number four, but who instead of Yrliet? Hopefully Cassia, but I am not optimistic.

[Nukesnipe]

Originally posted by Morgian:

Well, as usual it comes down how you handle your abilities. Even with the miserable weapons is the Malice fight doable. I finished it even before the commissar could intervene.
The companions seem to have an order in which they are found and the game lets them appear just in order. I also got Yrliet and Argenta back on my first run. It was not hard since my character was an officer. I am on my second run as a soldier and I killed Yrliet. So will be interesting to see who i get. Probably Pascal, who is usually number four, but who instead of Yrliet? Hopefully Cassia, but I am not optimistic.

Any RPG with a focus on player expression and giving them a bunch of potential builds that has any part where you get dunked on if you didn't build "correctly" is fundamentally flawed. System Shock 2 has a lot of wrong builds that you won't know were wrong until hours into the game, and that's bad.

I made my RT a soldier-arch militant, so I'm stuck with three ranged DPS in a fight that practically requires a melee tank. I can't even get through the first round before all my characters die, and I've tried this fight every way I can think of. I'm about ready to abuse the bug where reloading resets your distance for deployment, just so I can put my characters somewhere with some cover.

[Morgian]

Well, my new RT is also a soldier-AM, so I am in the same boat :)

I fully expect Argenta to be there and probably Pascal. So no extra rounds, but at least Pascal makes a decent fighter and offers some buffs/debuffs. If I am lucky I get Cassia instead, but I expect that the "you win" navigator will never be available for this fight.

[Cutlass Jack]

Argenta with the stubber from Malice's box cleared the entire room for me in 1.5 rounds while I took care of Malice with a blunt instrument.

There was only a single half dead flunky left alive in the room by round 3 when the Commissar showed up to 'help.'

[Mindmaker]

I fought him with all my companions and items.

[Nether]

Do you want tips or do you just want to vent?
It took me a couple of tries before getting the trick, and I did it before Yrliet got weapons she could use in Ch3 - but once you get the hang of it it's not terrible.

The generic tips are:
- You can position your team before talking with Malice, so make sure Argenta and/or Yrliet are well placed to mow down people or that Abelard is already in the face of someone who'd really like to shoot you.
- You probably have a collection of grenades. Use them. they're better (way better) if you also have the grenadier talent, but they're always useful.
- In the direst of emergencies, Yrliet can probably last a few hits as a Dodge tank. She won't be happy about it, but better her than Argenta.
- In the end, you don't really need to win if it seems impossible. Just huddle down in a corner and wait for the Commissar - it shouldn't take long.
- If you only have ranged people, put a gun in their second weapon slot for emergencies so they can shoot in melee without getting countered.

[Kixaster]

Originally posted by Nukesnipe:

Originally posted by Morgian:

Well, as usual it comes down how you handle your abilities. Even with the miserable weapons is the Malice fight doable. I finished it even before the commissar could intervene.
The companions seem to have an order in which they are found and the game lets them appear just in order. I also got Yrliet and Argenta back on my first run. It was not hard since my character was an officer. I am on my second run as a soldier and I killed Yrliet. So will be interesting to see who i get. Probably Pascal, who is usually number four, but who instead of Yrliet? Hopefully Cassia, but I am not optimistic.

Any RPG with a focus on player expression and giving them a bunch of potential builds that has any part where you get dunked on if you didn't build "correctly" is fundamentally flawed. System Shock 2 has a lot of wrong builds that you won't know were wrong until hours into the game, and that's bad.

I made my RT a soldier-arch militant, so I'm stuck with three ranged DPS in a fight that practically requires a melee tank. I can't even get through the first round before all my characters die, and I've tried this fight every way I can think of. I'm about ready to abuse the bug where reloading resets your distance for deployment, just so I can put my characters somewhere with some cover.

Just a hunch but in my playthrough the first 2 companions I ran into were the exact same ones I chose to escort me on Dargonus in also the same order I chose them, what you think?

[mcb0ny]

Originally posted by Kixaster:

Just a hunch but in my playthrough the first 2 companions I ran into were the exact same ones I chose to escort me on Dargonus in also the same order I chose them, what you think?

No, that has nothing to do with it. I have chosen Cassia on Dragonus and got her last.

Seems like you get your xeno pet and non-psykers first. Psykers and navigator are more interesting test subjects for your captors, so you get them later.

[REhorror]

I just buff Argenta and let she does the dakka dakka again.

[Nukesnipe]

Originally posted by Mindmaker:

I fought him with all my companions and items.

You gonna explain how or just say "trust me bro"?

[Morgian]

It seems to me you get your xeno and Argenta first, if they were with you. Next in line is Pascal, whom I got 3rd as I had no Yrliet. The psykers and Cassia are always in the opera, and you can beg to get Heinrix, but he keeps Cassia until the last.
Mercenaries are called bodyguards and you get all of them back after the first arena fight, when you visit Malice and then leave the Pit. Does not matter, if they are psykers or not.

I just did chapter 3 on Daring and it was way easier than I remembered from the first run. Malice has a heavy stubber in the chest. That is all what Argenta needs to rock. I also got somewhere a hand flamer (the Exploder) for her and I did the commissar fight in three rounds, even without an officer.
Someone drops the deadly splinter rifle pretty early, maybe it was the first arena fight, could have been the second. My own AM can use drukhari weapons, and that is probably the second best gun in the game (with some reservations, since some foes are immune to toxic shots).
The tentacled horror monster that buffs Yremeryss was not as terrible as I remembered it. But it keeps her mistress safe for the round before it is gone. That she heals herself once is not particularly shocking, since she has only 900 hitpoints. As she has to go last due to her shadowshield the whole party could concentrate fire on her.
Basically it was much easier for me the second time due to better positioning. The last time I stood 2 squares too close, this time it was exactly right.

[Kid Gloves]

It is a terrible fight. That whole section has problems, and is VERY dependent on you picking the right companions before you get captured - which makes it anywhere between 'quite easy' and 'reload your save game from Act 2'

[Boomstar]

No idea where you guys are getting more companions i can only find argenta and this fight is basically impossible for me. I've been everywhere im allowed, I desperately wish a company more competent then owlcat were making these kinds of games.

[Morgian]

You always get the opportunity to find three companions before your first fight. Argenta is near the commissar, Abelard lies near the edge of the road, Pascal lies in a dump on the same level, Yrliet is being trained as a torturer there too. Cassia and Idira are always locked up by Tervantias, as is Heinrix. You can beg for Heinrix after your first fight in the arena though. The others can be freed after the second arena fight.
If you have mercs, you get all of them back after the first arena fight by going into the Pit and leaving again.

The first two fights with a party of three are easy enough. If you pick Malice as your target you can turtle till the commissar arrives (round 3 I believe). If you pick the commissar you won't get help, but the guards are just cannon fodder, if you picked up the weapons from Malice stash (it has a stubber for Argenta). The arena fight is against two khymeras and you get other gladiators to help. There is an achievement, if you let them all die fighting the beasts and kill them afterwards :) Otherwise they will attack you when the khymeras are dead, but they are just mooks. And after this you get 1-2 companions back, plus all mercs, and your gear.

[Boomstar]

Originally posted by Morgian:

You always get the opportunity to find three companions before your first fight. Argenta is near the commissar, Abelard lies near the edge of the road, Pascal lies in a dump on the same level, Yrliet is being trained as a torturer there too. Cassia and Idira are always locked up by Tervantias, as is Heinrix. You can beg for Heinrix after your first fight in the arena though. The others can be freed after the second arena fight.
If you have mercs, you get all of them back after the first arena fight by going into the Pit and leaving again.

The first two fights with a party of three are easy enough. If you pick Malice as your target you can turtle till the commissar arrives (round 3 I believe). If you pick the commissar you won't get help, but the guards are just cannon fodder, if you picked up the weapons from Malice stash (it has a stubber for Argenta). The arena fight is against two khymeras and you get other gladiators to help. There is an achievement, if you let them all die fighting the beasts and kill them afterwards :) Otherwise they will attack you when the khymeras are dead, but they are just mooks. And after this you get 1-2 companions back, plus all mercs, and your gear.

I've done multiple laps all around there is only argenta. I cannot enter the arena or the opera or whatever its called.