Stormbolter vs 'eavy Bolter

[REhorror]

That is the question.

Rate of fire is king for burst character, 'eavy got 8, Stormbolter got 6, but Stormbotler got more damage AND armor penetration.

One downside of Stormbolter is you have to reload every 2 bursts, BUT you can take rapid reload and save a bunch of talents on 'eavy weapons.

What do you think? Or maybe I should put the Storm bolter to my Grand strategist RT instead?

[corisai]

Originally posted by Mack:

The automatic single shot bolter hits item makes the Heavy Bolter the best. The ultimate where you fire off as many single shots as your gun's ROF makes it incredibly overpowered.

Except Calibrated Stubber is available in Act 2 (or xenos rifle that amazing too) and way better then HB from Act 2. And better bolter from Act 4 require to know about him before playing and pre-plan farming rep with pirates.

Originally posted by Mack:

* Blessed Bolter Case makes her ultimate disgustingly powerful

Garbage, lol. You will have 95% hit chance with single shot in most cases.

Originally posted by Mack:

* Tactical Backpack (adds 1 more shot to the heavy bolter, it's a reputation item)

To ANY gun and not just bolter.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Mack:

The automatic single shot bolter hits item makes the Heavy Bolter the best. The ultimate where you fire off as many single shots as your gun's ROF makes it incredibly overpowered.

Originally posted by Mack:

* Blessed Bolter Case makes her ultimate disgustingly powerful

Garbage, lol. You will have 95% hit chance with single shot in most cases.

Originally posted by Mack:

* Tactical Backpack (adds 1 more shot to the heavy bolter, it's a reputation item)

To ANY gun and not just bolter.

95% can still lead to miss.
Having a sure hit means it's a peace of mind.

[Khryst]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

There are also gloves that negate recoil entirely, but those are an extremely late game item (second last tier from one of the factions, probably not an item most people will ever actually get).

Compensator Gloves

The wearer ignores weapon Recoil while performing Burst Attacks.
AND
The Rate of Fire of the wearer's weapon is increased by (Ballistic skill/2 +20)%

so you can easily double the RoF of a weapon while making it have no recoil

[REhorror]

Originally posted by kblaze13:

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

There are also gloves that negate recoil entirely, but those are an extremely late game item (second last tier from one of the factions, probably not an item most people will ever actually get).

Compensator Gloves

The wearer ignores weapon Recoil while performing Burst Attacks.
AND
The Rate of Fire of the wearer's weapon is increased by (Ballistic skill/2 +20)%

so you can easily double the RoF of a weapon while making it have no recoil

At this point it's just a matter of having enough ammo.

This means the 'eavy Bolter is superior, because Stormbolter means constant reload, even if it's cheap.

[DarkFenix]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Originally posted by Mack:

The automatic single shot bolter hits item makes the Heavy Bolter the best. The ultimate where you fire off as many single shots as your gun's ROF makes it incredibly overpowered.

Concentrated Fire, Bolter Spec, Rapid Fire (w/ Unfaltering Fire) and other skills like Revel In Slaughter, Devastating Attack, combined with talents for heavy weapons (Heavy Gunner, Broad Expertise, Rack & Ruin, Muzzle Velocity, Fired Up, Overpower, Breaking Point.

Late game you can get an improved Heavy Bolter, and the Exemplar skills Cataclysm (+3% damage for every new enemy hit) and in particular, Extermination (which is brutally broken by burst weapons skill giving you +1 damage for every ATTACK you make). The stubber can't compare.

You get equipment:
* Blessed Bolter Case makes her ultimate disgustingly powerful, shooting at least 8 auto hitting heavy bolter shots you can clear the board of low health enemies or put a huge amount of damage into a single enemy.
* Long Range Aim Lens (range attack distance increase, which increases hit chances and turns the heavy bolter into a sniper rifle with the blessed bolter case)
* Gunslinger's Helmet (significantly increases damage)
* Tactical Backpack (adds 1 more shot to the heavy bolter, it's a reputation item)
* Recoil Warboots.

There's multiple gloves that can do some incredibly things, like the Heavy Lifters which if you leave your character in place they get +50% damage on the next turn, bullet hell gloves which add another 1 to the ROF and inflict perplexed on enemies on kills, sniper gloves for +5% damage, crit chance, stab bracers which improve BS and add more crit damage.

There's even better equipment beyond those.

Set her up right and she can walk in front of the hardest target in a combat and pour 16 to 20 shots right into their face, then follow up with an ultimate of 10 more single shots that auto-hit.

Not getting that far yet, but does that mean the 'eavy stubber STILL the better choice due to 12 rate of fire?

Pretty much. Its damage starts low, but with how arch-militant can scale up based on how many individual shots hit, the sheer rate of fire scales the damage up obscenely fast. And the fact that the bursts only cost 1 AP means you get a lot of them, while having the spare AP to spend on buffs. Even on turn 1 it's quite easy to get 4+ bursts off.

[corisai]

Originally posted by REhorror:

This means the 'eavy Bolter is superior, because Stormbolter means constant reload, even if it's cheap.

I would say for mid-game:

Calibrated Stubber / Xenos long splinter rifle >> M40 autogun >> hot-shot lasgun >> heavy bolter >> any other bolter.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Originally posted by REhorror:

Not getting that far yet, but does that mean the 'eavy stubber STILL the better choice due to 12 rate of fire?

Pretty much. Its damage starts low, but with how arch-militant can scale up based on how many individual shots hit, the sheer rate of fire scales the damage up obscenely fast. And the fact that the bursts only cost 1 AP means you get a lot of them, while having the spare AP to spend on buffs. Even on turn 1 it's quite easy to get 4+ bursts off.

Coupled this with rapid reload when I get to exemplar.

Disgusting, it seems solid dakka is still the best in the Dark 41st millenium.
EDIT: But oh no, you miss out the single bolter cannot miss charm, that is huge, and pairs very well with Argenta's Soldier ultie.

[Mack]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Originally posted by corisai:

Garbage, lol. You will have 95% hit chance with single shot in most cases.

To ANY gun and not just bolter.

95% can still lead to miss.
Having a sure hit means it's a peace of mind.

With the long-lens you will be making automatic single hits with her ultimate from across the map.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Mack:

Originally posted by REhorror:

95% can still lead to miss.
Having a sure hit means it's a peace of mind.

With the long-lens you will be making automatic single hits with her ultimate from across the map.

What long-lens, do you mean the Eldar visor thing?
Still, I don't want to rely on RNG if I don't have to, so 'eavy botler it is.

[Zhein]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by REhorror:

This means the 'eavy Bolter is superior, because Stormbolter means constant reload, even if it's cheap.

I would say for mid-game:

Calibrated Stubber / Xenos long splinter rifle >> M40 autogun >> hot-shot lasgun >> heavy bolter >> any other bolter.

Dude, the Autogun can shot like 4 times before reloading. I'm shooting 100 bullets per turn, I can't reload 5 times every turn, it's clearly not good enough. Hot shot lasgun is even worse, it has rof 5 or 6 ?

Also Heavy weapons benefit from, whatsitcalled, overpower ?
So it's heavy bolter or stubber but nothing else comes close. It's the only thing that has the rof and ammo to use that rof.

Originally posted by REhorror:

EDIT: But oh no, you miss out the single bolter cannot miss charm, that is huge, and pairs very well with Argenta's Soldier ultie.

Nah. Argenta doesn't miss anyway with 5 billion stacks of versatility. The point of her soldier ulti is the +30% rof. Coupled with the helmet that gives rof*2 %damage bonus that works well.

Though that would mean not using the AM heroic, and the fight finishes turn one with the help of AM heroic, so I don't really know.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Zhein:

Originally posted by corisai:

I would say for mid-game:

Calibrated Stubber / Xenos long splinter rifle >> M40 autogun >> hot-shot lasgun >> heavy bolter >> any other bolter.

Dude, the Autogun can shot like 4 times before reloading. I'm shooting 100 bullets per turn, I can't reload 5 times every turn, it's clearly not good enough. Hot shot lasgun is even worse, it has rof 5 or 6 ?

Also Heavy weapons benefit from, whatsitcalled, overpower ?
So it's heavy bolter or stubber but nothing else comes close. It's the only thing that has the rof and ammo to use that rof.

Originally posted by REhorror:

EDIT: But oh no, you miss out the single bolter cannot miss charm, that is huge, and pairs very well with Argenta's Soldier ultie.

Nah. Argenta doesn't miss anyway with 5 billion stacks of versatility. The point of her soldier ulti is the +30% rof. Coupled with the helmet that gives rof*2 %damage bonus that works well.

Though that would mean not using the AM heroic, and the fight finishes turn one with the help of AM heroic, so I don't really know.

Argenta sometimes miss with a sniper shot at 95% accuracy, so nah, I'm not taking that chance.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Zhein:

Dude, the Autogun can shot like 4 times before reloading.

First reload for free thanks to talent. Second reload via heroic action, if even you need third one 1 AP is not issue (-1 from item, -1 from talent) - work like a charm for me in EARLY mid-game. Much better to hit with autogun that miss with bolter thanks to recoil you're unable to counter (as lack good items yet).

Originally posted by Zhein:

So it's heavy bolter or stubber but nothing else comes close.

Yes, Calibrated Stubber >>> all in late-game. I'd already mentioned it.

[Sovieticozasz]

Late game, the more bullets in the magazine the better, since you can increase the burst of weapons with an item. And there are some enemies with 40+ deflection where base damage can be good to kill them turn 1 reliably.

Early-Mid, RF is king.

regarding recoil and BS, i found them mostly useless stats. since by the time you are a good burster, you should have 400+ BS after the first turn of combat. Perception on the other hand was a very very goo stat to dump everything in.

[Sovieticozasz]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by Zhein:

Dude, the Autogun can shot like 4 times before reloading.

First reload for free thanks to talent. Second reload via heroic action, if even you need third one 1 AP is not issue (-1 from item, -1 from talent) - work like a charm for me in EARLY mid-game. Much better to hit with autogun that miss with bolter thanks to recoil you're unable to counter (as lack good items yet).

Originally posted by Zhein:

So it's heavy bolter or stubber but nothing else comes close.

Yes, Calibrated Stubber >>> all in late-game. I'd already mentioned it.

Aeldary Shuriken Cannon is pretty good.

And the freaking insane sniper with burst 6 you can get on commorragh is BY FAR the best weapon in the game, bar none. and it does not require you to dump repu.

(i am obviously not taking into account weapons you can only get in act 5 like "They Shall Weep" or the Necrontech laser)

[Mack]

I loaded up my late game argenta (and added solid weapon expert) and checked the stats against a specific enemy from close range.

The storm bolter isn't even worth checking, it's poor ammo count, mediocre rate of fire and limited damage makes it a total downgrade on the heavy weapons being tested.

Regular Heavy Bolter: 8-11 damage, 35% armor pen, ROF 13, Range 14, Max ammo 96. Rapid Fire shoots 23 times. Against an inquisition enforcer it can do 23 to 44 damage per shot. 530 to 1012.

Imp HB: 15-21 dmg, 35% armor pen, ROF 10, Range 14. Max ammo 60. Rapid Fire shoots 18 times. Against an inquisition enforcer it can do 33 to 60 damage per shot. 594 to 1080.

C H Stub: 7-8 dmg, 5% armor pen, ROF 18, Range 11, Max ammo 156. Rapid Fire shoots 33 times. Against an inquisition enforcer it can do 15 to 27 damage per shot. 495 to 891.

Other notes: The stubber does basically zero overpen, while both heavy bolters regularly over pen for some extra (although not particularly significant) overpen damage. The stubber uses 1 less AP, but it's not that important because of how much AP you have anyway.

There are talents like Rack & Ruin, Muzzle Velocity, Cataclysm, Overpower and Firearm Mastery ultimate where you get a much larger benefit with the bolters as they work for an individual attack in a burst or are a general damage increase which is better for the higher power attacks as higher ROF of the stubber isn't as useful.

The improved heavy bolter increases it's ROF by 1 for every enemy you kill. This is a significant benefit especially once you start stacking your buffs into the 2nd and 3rd turns.

You no longer can use the Blessed Bolter Case, so you are missing out on auto-hitting ultimate Firearm Mastery attacks. When you combine the Case with the increased range sight item you can clear the map of low health enemies while easily triggering the 3% bonus damage with the Exemplar Cataclysm skill.

My summary: Improved Heavy Bolter with it's 1+ ROF ability and high initial damage is superior to the regular Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber, and the Calibrated Heavy Stubber is slightly inferior to the regular Heavy Bolter, so you might as well plan a build around the Heavy Bolter from the start even if you never get the Improved Heavy Bolter. But at the same time, with the right build it's still going to be effective whichever one you choose.