Any plans to remove the Profit Factor cost from respeciing?

[Ken]

I really just want to be able to respec my characters without feeling arbitrarily punished for making decisions in the early game without fully understanding the systems.

[drager55891]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von drager55891:

Wow, great cherry picking and attack other people instead of trying to counter what they say.

How am I charry picking? Each one of those is a way to fix a poor build. Please explain how they are different - in any way - other than amount of time spent.

Sorry I was thinking you were including all the reason that a person could use a casual respec. My mistake with the straw man you were attacking also included into it.

[Glimmer]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von drager55891:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

How am I charry picking? Each one of those is a way to fix a poor build. Please explain how they are different - in any way - other than amount of time spent.

Sorry I was thinking you were including all the reason that a person could use a casual respec. My mistake with the straw man you were attacking also included into it.

I suppose I need to spell things out for you very, very simply. What "consequence" - which you and the other extremely popular kids claim is the reason for making respec a pain in the ass - is there except wasted time?

[Riftwalker]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

The people that think this is a good design decision have absolutely lost the plot. I challenge them to note any difference between these three scenarios:

(1) someone who makes a mistake, then fixes it via respec

(2) someone who makes a mistake, then reloads a save, and

(3) someone who makes a mistake, and restarts their campaign

Other than time wasted. That's what they are literally advocating for - a mechanic that does nothing but waste time.

OP - you will have to rely on third-party modders, because Owlcat listens only to the social shut-in sycophants.

'3'

there's also
(4) someone who makes a mistake and keeps playing anyway

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

I suppose I need to spell things out for you very, very simply. What "consequence" - which you and the other extremely popular kids claim is the reason for making respec a pain in the ass - is there except wasted time?

the consequence is having a character with that suboptimal choice, that you made?

[drager55891]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von drager55891:

Sorry I was thinking you were including all the reason that a person could use a casual respec. My mistake with the straw man you were attacking also included into it.

I suppose I need to spell things out for you very, very simply. What "consequence" - which you and the other extremely popular kids claim is the reason for making respec a pain in the ass - is there except wasted time?

Having you adjust how you deal with for elements that you current build instead of just casually respecing you team.

I enjoy having to make a call between pick a talent that would help now but be as good later or holding out for a talent more useful later. It is all apart of role playing in the game play.

If those thing are stuff you do not enjoy in game then find a skirmish games since this game would be just like that with extra time wasting elements added in.

[drager55891]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Riftwalker:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

The people that think this is a good design decision have absolutely lost the plot. I challenge them to note any difference between these three scenarios:

(1) someone who makes a mistake, then fixes it via respec

(2) someone who makes a mistake, then reloads a save, and

(3) someone who makes a mistake, and restarts their campaign

Other than time wasted. That's what they are literally advocating for - a mechanic that does nothing but waste time.

OP - you will have to rely on third-party modders, because Owlcat listens only to the social shut-in sycophants.

'3'

there's also
(4) someone who makes a mistake and keeps playing anyway

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

I suppose I need to spell things out for you very, very simply. What "consequence" - which you and the other extremely popular kids claim is the reason for making respec a pain in the ass - is there except wasted time?

the consequence is having a character with that suboptimal choice, that you made?

There the odd happy moments like Argenta to a bounty hunter and finding the shredding armor talent. Went from a mistake to the best defuffer in the game.

These long continuous game are not much fun and a huge waste of time if things you did in the past have no impact on where you are now.

[Mr.Hmm]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von DarkFenix:

Two things:
1) You can spare profit factor, there isn't a strict finite amount where if you don't make 100% optimal choices you won't have enough.
2) You don't have to play the game 100% optimally. It's not that hard, you can afford to make a mistake or two building a character, just roll with it.

Owlcat chose to make your character building decisions have consequence. You are not "being arbitrarily punished", extricate yourself from the mindset most modern games encourage, which is that you can have anything you want, any time you want. It wasn't so long ago that you couldn't respec in RPGs at all.

But! If you disagree with Owlcat's choice on this matter, go grab Toybox mod, it will let you respec for free, as many times as you like, any time, anywhere. The beauty of PC gaming.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Longdick Johnson:

its literally just impossible to build your characters properly without the ability to try things out

This is factually incorrect. I've never played RT tabletop, I didn't play any alpha/beta version of this, I built my characters purely off reading abilities in game. Were my characters from that completely optimal? Of course not, but I wasn't struggling with the game on daring either, my party was still 'properly' built.

Well said.

[DarkFenix]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von drager55891:

Sorry I was thinking you were including all the reason that a person could use a casual respec. My mistake with the straw man you were attacking also included into it.

I suppose I need to spell things out for you very, very simply. What "consequence" - which you and the other extremely popular kids claim is the reason for making respec a pain in the ass - is there except wasted time?

The consequence is having a less than perfect build. The concept is to live with your failures rather than just retcon them away.

Do you save scum every skill check? It's the same idea, an unwillingness to accept anything less than a perfect result, it's honestly quite an unhealthy state of mind in my opinion.

Accept imperfection, move forward. Unless it's a skill that specifically isn't working at all, then ♥♥♥♥ it, nuke that mothertrucker.

[Soul in Shadow]

If a mechanic is never used because the price of using it is considered too high, then the mechanic itself is pointless

[gurugeorge]

Yeah, one understands the developers' rationale: they are trying to encourage you to settle and live with your choicse. And that WOULD be a good idea, except with a system as new and unfamiliar as this, it's not. You'll likely respec several characters quite a few times before you even begin to get a handle on how the system really works.

What I would suggest, if the developers still want to keep that rationale, is to have all respecs free on the first playthrough, but have costed respecs on all subsequent playthroughs - by which time you should know what you're doing, and it makes sense to encourage you to stick with your choices and stop faffing about.

[SynZ77]

What they should do is turn profit factor into a prerequisite for respeccing, that increases every time you respec someone, instead of something you're spending for respeccing. Basically like "shops" work in this game, you're not spending profit factor there either.

That way you can't indefinitely respec, you're automatically getting the ability to respec more as you progress through the game, and it doesn't directly impact anything else in the game.

[Ishan451]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von DarkFenix:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

I suppose I need to spell things out for you very, very simply. What "consequence" - which you and the other extremely popular kids claim is the reason for making respec a pain in the ass - is there except wasted time?

The consequence is having a less than perfect build. The concept is to live with your failures rather than just retcon them away.

If we were talking about a Fantasy game that would be an argument but we are playing 40000 years in the future as the captain of a ship the size of a small city.

In a world where, if rich enough, you can sit in a chair and download skills into your brain.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hypno-Indoctrination

You could argue that installing a hypno chamber should cost something but once installed respecs should be free.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von DarkFenix:

Do you save scum every skill check? It's the same idea, an unwillingness to accept anything less than a perfect result, it's honestly quite an unhealthy state of mind in my opinion.

Accept imperfection, move forward. Unless it's a skill that specifically isn't working at all, then ♥♥♥♥ it, nuke that mothertrucker.

And to nuke it you need to install a cheat program. Toybox doesn't just let you respecc after all. Your argument is counterproductive. You slag people for save scumming but then suggest to widen the temptation to install a full on cheat program.

There is no reason for scaling respec costs. You can argue for an initial cost but ongoing costs and scaling costs make no sense. (Not that they did in pathfinder... its a bit like saying first class in community college costs 150 and then exponentially scales up each new class you take)

[Grimm]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

The people that think this is a good design decision have absolutely lost the plot. I challenge them to note any difference between these three scenarios:

(1) someone who makes a mistake, then fixes it via respec

(2) someone who makes a mistake, then reloads a save, and

(3) someone who makes a mistake, and restarts their campaign

Other than time wasted. That's what they are literally advocating for - a mechanic that does nothing but waste time.

OP - you will have to rely on third-party modders, because Owlcat listens only to the social shut-in sycophants.

my reasons are different than others on why i don't like free respec. think that you are doing a fight with a boss that does a lot of burning , and you have build your character as you normally would, good for most encounters. you find this fight tough , you go respect all your party to have every talent that gets you stronger against flame attacks , you do that specific boss fight and come back and respect to what you were before.
if you had to go back to your own save file in order to respect you would still need to consider the game as a whole and not based on one encounter , maybe what you have to sacrifice in order to make this encounter easy makes other encounters much harder. with free respect , you can optimize every time for the exact encounter your going be doing next. you learn the encounter , load the closest save to that encounter , respec your self , do the encounter and do the same thing for the next one. so here is the consequence of the free respect vs going back to a save file . one makes you optimize for the whole game , and the other lets you optimize for each encounter.

[Draken]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grimm:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Glimmer:

The people that think this is a good design decision have absolutely lost the plot. I challenge them to note any difference between these three scenarios:

(1) someone who makes a mistake, then fixes it via respec

(2) someone who makes a mistake, then reloads a save, and

(3) someone who makes a mistake, and restarts their campaign

Other than time wasted. That's what they are literally advocating for - a mechanic that does nothing but waste time.

OP - you will have to rely on third-party modders, because Owlcat listens only to the social shut-in sycophants.

my reasons are different than others on why i don't like free respec. think that you are doing a fight with a boss that does a lot of burning , and you have build your character as you normally would, good for most encounters. you find this fight tough , you go respect all your party to have every talent that gets you stronger against flame attacks , you do that specific boss fight and come back and respect to what you were before.
if you had to go back to your own save file in order to respect you would still need to consider the game as a whole and not based on one encounter , maybe what you have to sacrifice in order to make this encounter easy makes other encounters much harder. with free respect , you can optimize every time for the exact encounter your going be doing next. you learn the encounter , load the closest save to that encounter , respec your self , do the encounter and do the same thing for the next one. so here is the consequence of the free respect vs going back to a save file . one makes you optimize for the whole game , and the other lets you optimize for each encounter.

Personally I would never do that.
I would rather lower the difficulty than respec my whole party. Because that is honestly a ton of work and clicks.
Doing that just for one fight? Or dozens of times in one game? Definitely too much effort.
Maybe it's me that is strange, but I can't see many people doing that.

I usually do a respec for the following reasons:
1. Something isn't working as expected. A talent, an ability or an interaction that was central to the build I am going for doesn't work that way I expected it to. Something that would lead to me restarting with a new character if I couldn't fix it.

2. The game changed. In wrath I made a kineticist azata to use zippy magic on my kinetic blasts. It worked first, but was then patched out. Azatas only get 5 super powers and slowly as that, meaning having my first pick be completely unusable for my character would also have been a reason to restart the game with another character.

I would also point out: It's a single player game. With mods. If a player really wants to respec their character they can do that.
The current system just forces vanilla players to play with characters they are unsatisfied with or take a progress penalty.

I am currently in the situation that I actually want to respec my whole party. I went into the game blind, not knowing what worked, what didn't, what to look out for and what companion types I would be getting. I am no in the middle of act 2 and want to fix a few flaws in my MC and companion characters that are the result of that lack of knowledge. I already used a respec to remove a non-working talent and to fix the [Seize the Initiative] loop before it got hotfixed. So respecing my core team would cut into my profit factor which I am currently really wanting to build up to get the next set of juicy items.

Is that the intended purpose of the respec cost? Force people to play with characters they are unsatisfied with? Or delaying a reward you work towards? Because if so it's working pretty good.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grimm:

with free respect , you can optimize every time for the exact encounter your going be doing next. you learn the encounter , load the closest save to that encounter , respec your self , do the encounter and do the same thing for the next one.

That's why free respecs should be an option that you can turn on through the custom difficulty setting. You should be able to use them if that's how you want to play, but not to earn any of the difficulty-related achievements.

[Starrok]

We're planning to make the increase of the cost separate for each character, not be in the same pool for all of them at once as it is now. More freedom in respeccing within archetypes is also being discussed (not set in stone yet though).