Reputation and Trade systems are bad and make no sense

[Blackdragon]

This game's attempt to "reinvent the wheel" with its own special reputation and trade system is such a failure right now. It makes absolutely no sense either mechanically or lore-wise.

There are two main problems with it, on the short-term and long-term ends of the gameplay scale.

1. The short-term problem: you can't get very simple and mundane items until well into the game. This includes items that might be basic elements of a character build.

Example: you won't get plasma, melta, or flame weapons until at least the tail end of Chapter 1, i.e. when you're almost finished leveling your first archetype. (yes, that includes the heretical melta pistol, because it requires Rank II Heresy which you won't get until Chapter 2). So if you built your character around one of these weapon types (e.g. Forge World or Ministorum Priest), you'll spend quite a long time not being able to use your relevant abilities.

For example, you can get the Flensing Faith talent for yourself (if you play a Priest) and for Argenta. And you even encounter several Daemons in Chapter 1. But no Flamers to burn them with.

It makes zero sense, since not only you are a filthy rich Rogue Trader with his own private army, but you literally see that Theodora's bodyguard does actually have a flamer (or a melta), but you can't even take it from his corpse. Nor can you just requisition or buy a simple entry-level weapon. You have to jump through a lot of hoops and play through a goodly portion of the game to get something that you should have received at character creation or at most in the Prologue.

And seriously, the game craps all over your "origin story" by giving you literally zero starting equipment. I mean, an Astra Militarum Commander without even a decent gun on his person? A Sanctioned Psyker without a psyker staff? (I had to borrow Idira's just to be able to cast a decent offensive power). An unarmed Crime Lord? An unarmed/unarmored Warrior/Soldier/Officer? Again, zero sense, and it is compounded by the trade system which doesn't allow you to access even basic items during the entire early game.

As a result, you don't feel at all like a rich mogul and head of a private trade empire with its own enforcement. You feel worse than a 1st level D&D adventurer, because they at least get a few gold coins to purchase starting equipment appropriate for their builds.

But hey, this problem is only short-term, right? Well yeah, but then you're faced with the much more serious issue -

2. The long-term problem: you don't know what items will be available from merchants at higher ranks, so you can't plan which merchants to invest reputation in, and since there is only enough loot to max out one or at most two (maybe) merchants, this means you will lose access to a ton of unique, possibly build-defining items.

Even if you look up merchant stores on the wiki (which is already a design fail), most of the higher level items don't have their stats listed yet.

This includes iconic, unique, game-defining items such as the ONLY Power Armor wearable by your main character, which is locked behind max rank of one of the Merchants (it's Drusians, btw). So if you invest into other merchants, you will not be able to get it. And, again, the game doesn't show you items available at all ranks, only about 12 ranks ahead (and the highest rank with Drusians is 29, so you will need something like rank 15+ reputation to even see it).

This too makes no sense, as there is no logical reasons for merchants to "hide" their inventory from you. If anything, they should be flaunting it to persuade you to invest in them.

So, if you play the game without meta-knowledge, you may easily lock yourself out of the best items. Even WITH meta-knowledge, you will still not be able to buy more than half of these items, even if you have the necessary Profit Factor, simply because there's not enough loot to max out merchants reputations.

All of this makes itemisation in this game unnecessarily cumbersome and frustrating. While Profit Factor sounds like an interesting mechanic on paper, its realisation in practice, and especially the tying in with faction reputations, is so badly designed that I'm sure most players would much rather prefer classic trade.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Origineel geplaatst door olsongc:

Origineel geplaatst door JimmysTheBestCop:

yup. its basically completely worthless. you have to know which colony projects to build to get the best gear if not you just find anything.

there are powerful items but the entire equipment mechanic in this game isnt satisfying at all.

I think the ship should have had a weapons locker and each Act gets unlimited Tier equal to act. Base weapons non unique and non named.

Then all of the named gear is projects, reputations or quests.

Might as well teach everyone xeno weapons cause you find them by the truck load and even through 4 acts you barely find any human stuff. if you do its like 1 off. oh a new bolter for Argenta a new Plasma for Pasqal.

You dont find like enough bolters say for the entire party. Or even Heavy Armor most of the heavy armor you find in 3 acts is worst then light. like wtf?

I want to make heavy soldier platoon. but you cant cause there is no gear.

1) If you loot enough and pace out your reputation you'll be fine. I'm barely into Act 4 and have one at 10 and the rest at 5 and 6.

2) Define "tier" for a weapon? I'm using a Thunder Hammer, Plasma Gun, Multi Melta, Needle Gun, Plasma Pistol, Bolt Pistol, and Staffs I found in Act 2...and I'm in Act 4. As for Armor, you tend to want to worry about your Parry and your Dodge to save you over Armor. You also have to worry about your opponent's Armor penetration.

3) Not sure what you're looking for. The equipment mechanic is the same as most RPGs. You're not going to find multiple copies of the Super Awesome Sword of Mega Smiting.

4) You have Unlimited numbers. It's called loot your enemies.

5) Lol, what are you talking about? I found more "human" weapons than I have Xenos, and only Act 3 gives you a boatload of them...because guess what....*gasp* **SPOILER**

6) If you are trying to make everyone use Bolters, you are forcing yourself to interact down a narrow field and aren't going to cover yourself in the territories you need. That said, I've got a Modified Bolter and Precise Bolter sitting in my cargo hold and I think at one point I said 5 regular Bolters.

7) A Heavy Soldier Platoon? Cool. You'll want to specialize in someone with Melta, someone with Plasma, some with Heavy Bolters, and maybe some heavy-duty melee weapons.

You need 120k with each of the 4 non navy factions to max them out. I am almost done Act 4 and I looted everything even if I focused on just 1 of them I would never max it out.

You need the colony projects to max them.

What is the point in maxing out Rep in Act 5 the game is over.

I have 1 thing left to do in Act 4.

So you get power armor for the last 5 hours. yeah thats fun.

[Blackdragon]

Origineel geplaatst door Khloros:

Origineel geplaatst door Blackdragon:

LOL they don't even give you XP/loot for killing the demons your unsanctioned psyker literally summons from the Warp, and you're asking for farmable random encounters.

The encounters on your ship?
We are not talking about xp we are talking about loot, which yes they do drop loot if you spawn cultists in there.

The demons you encounter normally drop loot (and give XP). The demons you summon through perils of the warp do not (for some reason). So you already kinda have "random encounters" in the game, especially if you roll with Idira - BUT those encounters don't reward you with either XP or loot, so are absolutely useless.

[Marcos_DS]

In act 1 you didn't even take control of your planets (lost contact, no communication) - so all you have is whats on your ship and the power of the warrant. The system in act 1 doesn't belong to you, and its overrun by a cult.
Sure you should be able to get basic weapons & equipment from the stores of your voidship, but otherwise it makes sense that you don't have access to the full power of your dynasty yet. No coronation, no contact to your own planets & lots of problems on them as well,,

[Megapewpew]

Origineel geplaatst door Blackdragon:

Origineel geplaatst door Khloros:

The encounters on your ship?
We are not talking about xp we are talking about loot, which yes they do drop loot if you spawn cultists in there.

The demons you encounter normally drop loot (and give XP). The demons you summon through perils of the warp do not (for some reason). So you already kinda have "random encounters" in the game, especially if you roll with Idira - BUT those encounters don't reward you with either XP or loot, so are absolutely useless.

I'm actually fine with that, there should only be negatives for psykers pulling ♥♥♥♥ out of the warp. The problem is our only option to grind rep is warp jumping; which fine, whatever, but if you are going to do that, have us be able to find new/random "voidship wrecks" after a jump that we can can board and kill/collect loot and allow us to run into random pirates for space battles for leveling the navel faction, or even add planetary defense missions that happen randomly that makes us go protect our outposts.

But imo, what they should have done is have repeatable missions that these factions give out, where we can go to "generic location X and board/Land and complete objective for rep/loot".

To me these are basic things they forgot, when they put the rep needs so high.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Origineel geplaatst door Necrosian:

Origineel geplaatst door olsongc:

1) If you loot enough and pace out your reputation you'll be fine. I'm barely into Act 4 and have one at 10 and the rest at 5 and 6.

It's not an issue with pacing the rep. It's an issue of it scaling with overall investment. There is simply not enough loot to get enough reputation before the end of the game, if you have invested in more that two factions.

Origineel geplaatst door olsongc:

2) Define "tier" for a weapon? I'm using a Thunder Hammer, Plasma Gun, Multi Melta, Needle Gun, Plasma Pistol, Bolt Pistol, and Staffs I found in Act 2...and I'm in Act 4. As for Armor, you tend to want to worry about your Parry and your Dodge to save you over Armor. You also have to worry about your opponent's Armor penetration.

I think it the different patterns you can find in the game.

Origineel geplaatst door olsongc:

3) Not sure what you're looking for. The equipment mechanic is the same as most RPGs. You're not going to find multiple copies of the Super Awesome Sword of Mega Smiting.

There are total 2 or 3 force swords in the game. and 4? power armours, even those are locked by the last levels of reputation. If you are like me and unknowingly invested in all factions, you wont be able to get those by a reasonable time if at a all.

Origineel geplaatst door olsongc:

4) You have Unlimited numbers. It's called loot your enemies.

Sure, grinding is fun in a singleplayer rpg and doing it for a long time even more so.

Origineel geplaatst door olsongc:

5) Lol, what are you talking about? I found more "human" weapons than I have Xenos, and only Act 3 gives you a boatload of them...because guess what....*gasp* **SPOILER**

Sure, more loot for the cargo throne.

Preach. WH40K Chaos Gate handled it proper. Grey Knights had unlimited Tier 1 weapons. You could get all the frag and med kits you wanted.

Anything named in higher Tiers you had to earn by requisition. This could have easily been adjusted to the reputation system.

If you want 6 guys in heavy armor with 2 handed bolters and scale in each act you cant do it. Not enough equiment.

But I have 40x xeno pistols that are better than all but the final bolter in game. I got about 20x alderai guardian sniper rifles which is in top 3. Xeno melee weapons coming out of my butt crack.

Mean while one of the best dmg melee from a lvl 5 project does about the same dmg as the xeno blades but you only get 1 from projects mean while you get stacks of xeno stuff.

[Blackdragon]

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

Origineel geplaatst door Blackdragon:

1) Those are "hand" (i.e. pistol) flamers which suck;
2) You have to loot them from enemies, which means random rabble from a backwards planet are better equipped than the Rogue Trader;
3) You fight your first Daemon in the Prologue, and you've already gained several levels by then, but there are no flamers, you can't even pick one from the bodyguard's corpse, so if you picked a unique talent specifically for this purpose you can't even use it because the game did not supply you with a basic weapon type.

I don't remember where I found it, but I had a Flamer (the two handed variety) in chapter 1, found it on the station with Cassia or in the prison, because I remember using it in the prison boss fight in a playthrough where I went Cassia Station -> Prison Planet -> System Capitol.

That is already half-way through Chapter 1, after having done Prologue where you battle your first Daemon. And all this time, you didn't have access to this very basic weapon, which according to TTRPG rules you could have acquired at character creation.

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

And I don't think it is a good argument to expect equipment to be made available just because you picked a talent related to that equipment. Should Power Armor be made available in Chapter 1 because I can get proficiency for it?

You know that using demagoguery like reductio ad absurdum just makes your own argument look ridiculous? Nobody asked for Power Armor in chapter 1, just like nobody's asking for +5 Full Plate at level 5 in D&D. But like in D&D you can expect to have at least access to your preferred weapon type that you want to spec into, so it is in Rogue Trader tabletop, where you can indeed outfit your character with a weapon of almost any type (though not quality) at character creation. For some reason, though, this game completely eschews this logic and makes you scrap for leftovers from fallen rabble enemies.

And speaking of Power Armor, with this game's absurd reputation system there's a big chance you won't EVER be able to get it for your main character, unless you pour all resources into maxing out reputation with one specific faction. But which faction, you cannot know in advance, only through meta-gaming. Bravo, Owlcat.

[Shadowkire]

Origineel geplaatst door Blackdragon:

That is already half-way through Chapter 1, after having done Prologue where you battle your first Daemon. And all this time, you didn't have access to this very basic weapon, which according to TTRPG rules you could have acquired at character creation.

I am pretty sure the TTRPG rules are for making a Rogue Trader, who is already a Rogue Trader. This game starts you off as some random guy who happens to be related to a Rogue Trader.

And if the Flamer is on Eurac IV that is, or can be, the very beginning of Chapter 1.

Origineel geplaatst door Blackdragon:

You know that using demagoguery like reductio ad absurdum just makes your own argument look ridiculous? Nobody asked for Power Armor in chapter 1, just like nobody's asking for +5 Full Plate at level 5 in D&D. But like in D&D you can expect to have at least access to your preferred weapon type that you want to spec into, so it is in Rogue Trader tabletop, where you can indeed outfit your character with a weapon of almost any type (though not quality) at character creation. For some reason, though, this game completely eschews this logic and makes you scrap for leftovers from fallen rabble enemies.

And speaking of Power Armor, with this game's absurd reputation system there's a big chance you won't EVER be able to get it for your main character, unless you pour all resources into maxing out reputation with one specific faction. But which faction, you cannot know in advance, only through meta-gaming. Bravo, Owlcat.

Demagoguery:
noun
Political activity or practices that seek support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument.

Do I have to point out what you sound like when you use terms like that? I believe you meant to say fallacy. And your retort is also a fallacy, as getting heavy armor proficiency in D&D would not create the expectation for getting +5 version of that equipment.

In addition, you can't expect to to at least have access to your preferred weapon in D&D, as there are many, MANY games where the scenario, setting, or DM preference would prevent you from doing so.


I do agree with you that the rep and trade system are bad though.

[Drake]

Profit factor is owlcat's take on the original system. There as absolutely no currency system in the pnp game, items don't have a cost, instead there is an availability check. If you want an item, you roll for it and if you pass the test, it is available to you.
Now the catch is that every item has an availability stat, and some items have a very low rate (a power armour for exemple pretty much needs a 1 to 5 on a d100), and your haggle skill, reputation, actual location and profit factor are what modify that check (like if you are on a feral world, a bolter is agoing to be at 0% availability, so you won't even be able to roll for it).

While it works fine in pnp witha GM, with the whole save/reload thing on a computer game, it's just impossible to do in a crpg (unless you only allow one save file). You need to have an item list (the alternative would be to generate a unqiue seed for the whole save, but that can be manipulated with a save editor, so it won't prevent cheating anyway).

So while the system is flawed, it's still trying to be close to the original pnp mechanics.

I saw people talking about Chaos Gate. Don't forget that this game is a tactical game, not an rpg, has limited save slots for that specific reason and you can only know your loot after doing a mission (and I'm pretty sure the roll is done when a new wave of mission is generated, so you can't really cheat that unless you hack the save).
Those are 2 completely different types games.

The issue isn't as simple as people think it to be, at least if you want to be faithful to the original material.

Now, as a personal opinion, I would argue that rogue trader should have been a sandbox crpg, with no fixed companions (you create your own crew) and heavily focused on rerolls and death, with the rogue trader being a separate mechanic from the rest of the party and with only one save file (something like kingdom come).
Warhammer 40K pnp rpgs are really not like D&D, they are heavily reliant on rerolls, missions and investigation. They are not your standard D20 dungeon crawlers.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

There was no need for reputation. Owlcat had profit factor and it scales based on the Act because colony projects scale with the Act. More projects more PF.

No need for reputation all gear should be solely based on PF. You want Power Armor well its 125 rep. Go and get it from your lackey.

Reputation ruins the end of the game because there isnt enough loot to get rep. Maybe with 1 faction.

[Shad]

Origineel geplaatst door JimmysTheBestCop:

There was no need for reputation. Owlcat had profit factor and it scales based on the Act because colony projects scale with the Act. More projects more PF.

No need for reputation all gear should be solely based on PF. You want Power Armor well its 125 rep. Go and get it from your lackey.

Reputation ruins the end of the game because there isnt enough loot to get rep. Maybe with 1 faction.

I mean "some" reputation system with faction could well be implemented. By for example fulfilling major requests or actions in game. For example, fight alongside the navy fight off a major incursion, they like you more. Be a good dogmatic boy that acts as a faithful servant of the Imperium: good relation with Drusians. Or conversely, get in on heavy xeno-artifact trade, and Kabalistica love you, but Explorators, not so much. That solves the problem of trying to please all factions, as it's clearly impossible to please everyone.

What the reputation should NOT be is: rifling through the local slum trash bins and cultist bodies for looter underpants to "gift" to factions. That's something more appropriate for a Necromunda hive gang, not a person who owns multiple star systems.

[Blackdragon]

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

Origineel geplaatst door Blackdragon:

That is already half-way through Chapter 1, after having done Prologue where you battle your first Daemon. And all this time, you didn't have access to this very basic weapon, which according to TTRPG rules you could have acquired at character creation.

I am pretty sure the TTRPG rules are for making a Rogue Trader, who is already a Rogue Trader. This game starts you off as some random guy who happens to be related to a Rogue Trader.

No, you're playing the Rogue Trader, the beginning is just the plot hook installing you as the RT. And it would make zero sense otherwise, the game is called "Rogue Trader", not "Some random guy who happens to be related to a Rogue Trader", and is ostensibly based on the RT TTRPG.

Either way Owlcat just ditched the entire Equipment Acquisition part of the RT character creation process, which is just mind-bogglingly stupid because if any RPG character should have access to a wide range of equipment off the bat, it's WH40K Rogue Trader.

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

And if the Flamer is on Eurac IV that is, or can be, the very beginning of Chapter 1.

I did Eurac IV first and I don't recall getting the flamer there.

Nor in the prison colony which I did second.

The first flamers I saw were hand held ones used by pyroclast rebels on the big planet. But hand flamers suck.

The first real flamer was for me at least half way into chapter 1 when my characters were already level 10+. I think I bought it from the pirate ship, which I hesitated to approach before gathering all my crew because I thought it would be a ship battle.

And this one flamer is still the ONLY flamer I have in the entire team (excluding hand ones which I sell for rep), even though I've got some ranks with three merchants and bought all their lower stock. So if I wanted to equip my main char and Argenta with flamers, I CAN'T - even though my team is at level 17 now.

Does this make any sense? That a 17th level Rogue Trader can't get a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ basic flamer to give his Sister of Battle for her Flensing Faith talent, because he only has one for the entire team and his own build needs it?

The first (and only) plasma gun I got even later than the flamer.

And I still don't have a SINGLE MELTA WEAPON (with the exception of the heretical melta pistol that only Idira can use - and she's a psyker not specced into ballistics; and yes I'm playing heretical but the pistol needs second rank, which I still don't have even in chapter 2). Imagine wanting to play a Melta guy and not getting any Melta weapons even by level 17.

This is totally moronic. In Table Top, each of the characters would have his or her signature weapon straight from level 1.

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

Origineel geplaatst door Blackdragon:

You know that using demagoguery like reductio ad absurdum just makes your own argument look ridiculous? Nobody asked for Power Armor in chapter 1, just like nobody's asking for +5 Full Plate at level 5 in D&D. But like in D&D you can expect to have at least access to your preferred weapon type that you want to spec into, so it is in Rogue Trader tabletop, where you can indeed outfit your character with a weapon of almost any type (though not quality) at character creation. For some reason, though, this game completely eschews this logic and makes you scrap for leftovers from fallen rabble enemies.

And speaking of Power Armor, with this game's absurd reputation system there's a big chance you won't EVER be able to get it for your main character, unless you pour all resources into maxing out reputation with one specific faction. But which faction, you cannot know in advance, only through meta-gaming. Bravo, Owlcat.

Demagoguery:
noun
Political activity or practices that seek support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument.

Do I have to point out what you sound like when you use terms like that?

Demagoguery is simply the methods or practices of a demagogue (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/demagoguery), logical fallacies being common among such methods. Reductio ad absurdum is not an appeal to logic, because it is entirely illogical; it is an attempt to draw a non-existent parallel by emotional exaggeration, which is exactly what a demagogue would do.

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

And your retort is also a fallacy, as getting heavy armor proficiency in D&D would not create the expectation for getting +5 version of that equipment.

Funny how you don't even say your argument wasn't fallacious, but instead try to accuse me of a fallacy by using the same ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ fallacy the second time. Classic demagoguery.

You're again comparing a BASIC item of a certain item type to the most advanced version of an item. An ordinary flamer or plasma gun in WH40K RT is not the same as a +5 Full Plate in D&D. In RT tabletop, you can get an ordinary flamer or plasma gun for your Rogue Trader at character creation, like in D&D you can get a two-handed sword and heavy armor for your fighter at character creation.

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

In addition, you can't expect to to at least have access to your preferred weapon in D&D, as there are many, MANY games where the scenario, setting, or DM preference would prevent you from doing so.

WRONG, you CAN expect to have access to a weapon of your preferred weapon type in D&D at character creation, it says so right in the Player's Handbook and DMG. In D&D 5e (which I personally don't like but it's the simplest and most current example), a Fighter gets an average of 125 gp at character creation, which is enough to buy a greatsword (most expensive martial weapon) and a set of heavy armour (chainmail). That way you can use your proficiencies and specialisations from the very beginning.

If you are robbed of this opportunity in a D&D game (while notably other players weren't because they got their signature weapons early), it means either DM fiat or a heavy homebrew rule, in either case - a very strong deviation from both RAW and RAI.

In this game I only got my first greatsword and heavy armor at level 10+. And they were both of "primitive" quality. So the famously rich Rogue Trader is worse off than a first level D&D adventurer.

Origineel geplaatst door Shadowkire:

I do agree with you that the rep and trade system are bad though.

Indeed they are.

[talemore]

simulates our world.

Can't get the toys before you too old to use them

Working 2o years to do what you wanted to do 20 years ago

[Blackdragon]

Origineel geplaatst door JimmysTheBestCop:

There was no need for reputation. Owlcat had profit factor and it scales based on the Act because colony projects scale with the Act. More projects more PF.

No need for reputation all gear should be solely based on PF. You want Power Armor well its 125 rep. Go and get it from your lackey.

This is literally the best solution. Buy stuff from merchants with profit factor. Maybe do some specific quests (available to every player) for access to special items.

The "loot" concept is ridiculous anyway. I've found piles of literal gemstones and other valuables just lying around in the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sewers inhabited by penniless outcasts. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

You should increase your profit factor by performing big missions (like conquering or restoring control over a planet), concluding trade deals and investing in planetary projects. Not by shuffling through refuse in the town's sewage system.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Origineel geplaatst door Blackdragon:

Origineel geplaatst door JimmysTheBestCop:

There was no need for reputation. Owlcat had profit factor and it scales based on the Act because colony projects scale with the Act. More projects more PF.

No need for reputation all gear should be solely based on PF. You want Power Armor well its 125 rep. Go and get it from your lackey.

This is literally the best solution. Buy stuff from merchants with profit factor. Maybe do some specific quests (available to every player) for access to special items.

The "loot" concept is ridiculous anyway. I've found piles of literal gemstones and other valuables just lying around in the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sewers inhabited by penniless outcasts. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

You should increase your profit factor by performing big missions (like conquering or restoring control over a planet), concluding trade deals and investing in planetary projects. Not by shuffling through refuse in the town's sewage system.

And you don't have access to the merchants in act 3 or act 5.

If you want to max anyone you have to do it before 5.

You need over 100k with each of the 4 equipment factions. I think you can max maybe 1 and have a little left over for the others.

I honestly don't know how players like this system or defend it. Unless you got way more reputation before release.

It is entirely meta knowledge. You have to know which companions or mercs you will bring the majority of the time. You have to know their builds. And you have to go read like 150 pieces of equipment to see which store benefits your party. Cause they sell completely different things and you will only MAX one.

I don't understand how that is fun or entertaining or even makes sense.

I didn't feel pathfinder games was so META. Or combat just about abusing talents.

Difficulty doesn't matter in RT. You get 2 officers. 2 grand strategiest. Sniper and 2 mast tacts and you win. And it scales.

I started act 5 combat to became less and less fun. It is a gimmick or puzzle of which builds to bring since the initiative and turn system completely suck in the game.

You bring officer grand strat so they move first. Give turn to ranged that can kill 3-4 guys for max monteum. Officer turn again and use heroic.

I so should have respecced lol. My officers suck and I have no grand strategiest.

If you don't play optimal you have to rely on luck of init or luck of 95% to not get hit in first turn since you sent buff.

Expeditions Rome was a cRPG with true squad turn based combat.

RT combat I thought would be better then pathfinder since it was turn base in design. It's probably worst. Or at least personally less fun and less satisfying

[zpc]

Meh - found this thread after making my own one

I too came to the same conclusion now - the best thing I got by spreading my wings was
Drusians rank 19/29 despite them being my "main trading house" ...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3119155567

Definately needs meta gaming knowledge - or better: a rework by Owlcat.