daring difficulty tanking

[Doenyon]

Is a tank build viable for daring difficulty, and I'm just a noob that should get good ?
I know I know, it's the internet I know the answer already.
But I have Heindrix and Abelard as vanguards with full defensive builds (got lots of damage already from my sniper), and even with 50% armor, 90% parry, and a good frontline zone from my strategist they still get one shot by every boss and mini boss since the chaos space marine. (I'm in early act 2 right now, level 17)
Even if they can act before the boss turn 1 and put up their own buffs for defense, they still get one shot.
The chaos space marine, that ember guy on footfall, the forgefiend, all act before any of my team, and one shot even my tanks.
Am I missing something really obvious ? Cause I'm starting to think I should just recruit a full squad of operative snipers and kill everything without trying to be smart or care about the companions.

[CXXXV]

Your source of defense are:
--shield of the emperor (Heinrix - Sanctic Psyker)
--tactical knowledge (Pasqal/Idira - Operative)
--endure (Abelard - Warrior)

any two of them should make you take single digit damage

[dustin1280]

Absolutely 100% viable, even on hard they are viable (I haven't messed with unfair)

Endure is key to using them as a tank. You absolutely have to use that ability every single turn.

Most of their tankiness doesn't kick in till you use endure for the first time. Then after that they both haves ways to have gobs of armor, parry, and temporary wounds.

[Mister Wolf]

Yeah im playing Daring as a Tank Warrior/Vanguard. I taunt enemies making me their priority target. When they swing at me I parry almost everything and with the Defensive Stance ability I attack them back every time I parry.

[katzenkrimis]

Doenyon původně napsal:

I'm in early act 2 right now, level 17.

That's one problem.

Level 19 is when you'll notice a significant difference in party strength.

You'll become much more powerful.

And buffs need to be heavily used and abused.

My main character, that's all he does is buff the tanks to keep them alive.

They never die.

[Howell-Barrex Soldier Ja'kala]

CXXXV původně napsal:

Your source of defense are:
--shield of the emperor (Heinrix - Sanctic Psyker)
--tactical knowledge (Pasqal/Idira - Operative)
--endure (Abelard - Warrior)

any two of them should make you take single digit damage

There is also giving an ally +50 wounds with cassia (more useful at higher difficulties where there is a minimum damage on hits)

[Sevitan]

You know, it was a lot more balanced in the beta, where tanking was pretty effective. But they really amped up enemy damage since, and their hp. So really, the best defense is overwhelming offense. Arch Militant bursting everything to death or Assassin one shotting stuff with Killing Edge is far more effective than a balanced approach.

The further you get into game, the more necessary it feels and the less likely are your tanks going to survive due to the massive enemy modifiers Owlcat put in.

[Gaius]

Doenyon původně napsal:

Is a tank build viable for daring difficulty, and I'm just a noob that should get good ?
I know I know, it's the internet I know the answer already.
But I have Heindrix and Abelard as vanguards with full defensive builds (got lots of damage already from my sniper), and even with 50% armor, 90% parry, and a good frontline zone from my strategist they still get one shot by every boss and mini boss since the chaos space marine. (I'm in early act 2 right now, level 17)
Even if they can act before the boss turn 1 and put up their own buffs for defense, they still get one shot.
The chaos space marine, that ember guy on footfall, the forgefiend, all act before any of my team, and one shot even my tanks.
Am I missing something really obvious ? Cause I'm starting to think I should just recruit a full squad of operative snipers and kill everything without trying to be smart or care about the companions.

A good idea is to have at least one officer with Seize the Initiative in our team always (Cassia can do this), so you can give a turn with 2 AP to any character in all fights. If you want to be tnakier, you can give it to Abelard and use his Brace for Impact! (giving some deflection in a 3 radius around him) and also one more defensive - or charge one eneemy changing the focus from where your team started the fight.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

I honestly dont think Vanguards are that tanky compared to Arch Militants. Most of your defense comes from your heavy armor.

the 2 best heavy armors you need 1 max coercion and 1 max carouse. So you can get 20+ deflection.

Exemplar talent gives you 2x deflection for single attacks.

Remember after debuffs everything caps at 95%. The only way not to get hit is 95% armor,. 95% dodge and 95% parry after debuffs with >20 deflection.

Arch Militant Cautious approach with reckless rush and the associated talents cost you 0 AP and basically max your parry and dodge and you are immune to all basic effects and you get a ton of extra MP. And you get 2% armor for every stack. So that basically max's all of your defense.

You dont really have to go ranged and melee you can stick to whatever your primary attack was from 1st arch type and just your kick+martial arts in between attacks.

Soldier Dual Wielding Xeno pistols bursting then kick then burst again. Run and gun burst again.

Melee guy doing attack then kick then attack. Dual Xeno swords or 1 xeno sword and 1 unique weapon.

I had Ulfar tank that thing with 4000hp in melee range while he just shook off rocket attacks. I dont think Vanguards can do that unless they are getting buffed from others.
Arch Militant can do it himself.

Vanguard doesnt have anyway to buff dodge and you still need high dodge for a tank. Cause bosses can range you from melee and parry doesnt count. and even with max armor and deflection you need that dodge.

[Doenyon]

I mean, first off, if you read my question, you'll notice boss have initiative on me everytime, and can't use the buffs. But maybe I could raise agility is it for higher base initiative ?
Second, I do have the buffs listed in the first reply, I still get one shot. :D
I use Abelard, heindrix, idira, jae, mc as a munchkin operative sniper, and argenta.
Not talking about regular fights, abelard and heindrix don't get hit at all or take 0 when they do between the deflection and the rest. But specifically mini boss + fights.

Sevitan původně napsal:

You know, it was a lot more balanced in the beta, where tanking was pretty effective. But they really amped up enemy damage since, and their hp. So really, the best defense is overwhelming offense. Arch Militant bursting everything to death or Assassin one shotting stuff with Killing Edge is far more effective than a balanced approach.

The further you get into game, the more necessary it feels and the less likely are your tanks going to survive due to the massive enemy modifiers Owlcat put in.

My feelings exactly yeah.
Regular fights were boring as hell, and mini bosses were hard but doable if you knew what you were doing.
But now it's amped up bosses like crazy, and regular ennemies spamming stun grenades with massive area of effect.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

make your buffer a grand strategist they always goes 1st no matter what.

[Doenyon]

JimmysTheBestCop původně napsal:

I honestly dont think Vanguards are that tanky compared to Arch Militants. Most of your defense comes from your heavy armor.

the 2 best heavy armors you need 1 max coercion and 1 max carouse. So you can get 20+ deflection.

Exemplar talent gives you 2x deflection for single attacks.

Remember after debuffs everything caps at 95%. The only way not to get hit is 95% armor,. 95% dodge and 95% parry after debuffs with >20 deflection.

Arch Militant Cautious approach with reckless rush and the associated talents cost you 0 AP and basically max your parry and dodge and you are immune to all basic effects and you get a ton of extra MP. And you get 2% armor for every stack. So that basically max's all of your defense.

You dont really have to go ranged and melee you can stick to whatever your primary attack was from 1st arch type and just your kick+martial arts in between attacks.

Soldier Dual Wielding Xeno pistols bursting then kick then burst again. Run and gun burst again.

Melee guy doing attack then kick then attack. Dual Xeno swords or 1 xeno sword and 1 unique weapon.

I had Ulfar tank that thing with 4000hp in melee range while he just shook off rocket attacks. I dont think Vanguards can do that unless they are getting buffed from others.
Arch Militant can do it himself.

Vanguard doesnt have anyway to buff dodge and you still need high dodge for a tank. Cause bosses can range you from melee and parry doesnt count. and even with max armor and deflection you need that dodge.

carouse and coercion raise deflection ? is that a high level perk or something ?
I'm only at the beginning of act 2 there. :)
Didn't know arch militants could tank, They are described as damage dealers so I made argenta get that.

[Doenyon]

JimmysTheBestCop původně napsal:

make your buffer a grand strategist they always goes 1st no matter what.

hahahaa, I was 0 seconds old when I realized my idira acting first in fights was due to that.
Thanks !
But yeah, giving frontlines to my tank for the +armor (and + damage received on the boss) when she comes up, still not enough.
I don't have that much deflection though, like 2 at best before their own buffs.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Doenyon původně napsal:

carouse and coercion raise deflection ? is that a high level perk or something ?
I'm only at the beginning of act 2 there. :)
Didn't know arch militants could tank, They are described as damage dealers so I made argenta get that.

it is abilities added to the 2 best heavy armors in game. deflection is set to coercion/10.

[Doenyon]

damn, good to know for the future.
Well, you give gave me some pretty good ideas, gotta respect some of my toons. :)
Thanks everybody.

[m3fallen]

Honestly, I don't even know if a tank is viable. Argenta as Arch-Militant or Cassia as a Navigator take out everything before Abelard can even try to tank anything.

Currently got 3 Officers which give them 5 extra turns every turn, it is a bit insane. I would not be surprised if Arch-Militant or Navigator gets nerfed.

WTH is 400+ damage per shot on burst from Argenta?!