heresy is way too unrealistic. No way you could get away with it

[VladK02]

During the electro-priest monastery, one of the dialogue lines is...
(heresy +3 or whatever) Back away from the console Aurora, im our new masters' favorite !!!

And Inquisitor's acolyte goes "Interesting choice of words"

Bruh. Thats not an "interesting choice of words". That's a bolt pistol to the temple right then and there. From the inquisitor boy, from the sister, from the not one but TWO psykers that can see literally everything youre doing, like stealing sword shards, making pacts with the warp... What kind of Emperor's servants are you lot?? Im balls-deep in chaos, right in plain sight!

I fully expected to have to kill the inquisitor boy in the temple. But no, he let it go. (At least, for now).

I feel that heresy in the game is too obvious, at least in chapter 1.

The Dogmatic choices of comedic 'execute everything and everyone for any slight whatsoever just because - then execute some more" - thats 40k staple, sure. Thats well done.

But heresy? Meh...

And if the Theodora or whatever, the original captain, was also a heretic - which she was, according to the xenos loot stash in her ship - then why are her (and now mine) companions not heretics?? Irida is just cool with witnessing chaos corruption everywhere and not speaking up? And same with the navigator chick?

[Voodoo]

Originally posted by lazur22:

Some inquisitors had deamonhost pets, like Eisenhorn - if that's not bordering heresy, then I am Sanguinus.

It is, despite claiming to be puritan at start of xenos by 3rd book hes as radical as it gets and it costs him dearly.

[Voodoo]

Originally posted by The Colgate King:

You're arguing from a pragmatic viewpoint, additionally the flavor text from the dark heresy books doesn't stay strong when set next to the rest of SoB lore. Sisters get rejected by the ecclesiarchy often, Sister Superior Augusta was rejected by a planetary Deacon when the Canoness sent her to retrieve a holy relic.

The SoB are not pragmatic or reasonable, they adhere strictly to the dogma of upholding The Emperor's will. It doesn't matter what or who, if someone suggest the SoB do something other than that (even when what the SoB are doing currently is in opposition to His will) they will refuse. A perfect example, the Age of Apostasy. Even when several chapters of space marines (Black Templars among them) showed up to shutdown Vandire, the SoB fight them because they believed Vandire was blessed by Emps. Then when the Custodes, the guardians of The Emperor himself showed up and said "Look, Vandire is off his rocker and this whole thing is threatening Him" the SoB still kept fighting because in their minds Vandire was the blessed one. It was only after one of them was taken to the throne room (and they had the audacity to demand hostages from the Custodes while they went to this audience) did they finally switch sides

And there in lies the rub. A Warrant of Trade (a true one) isn't just some scrap of vellum, it's a holy relic, proported to have been touched by His own hand. Some of them have even been annointed with a drop of His blood. Just blasting a Rogue Trader on a whim would be akin to heresy itself because a Rogue Trader was hand picked by The Emperor himself to serve. Doing so would be akin to saying the The Emperor made a mistake.

If a sister was under orders from an inquisitors or walked in on a trader with a handful of chaos artifacts while making a deal with a daemon, yeah they would likely blow them away. But the SoB are so prone to being blind to heresy around them, even ascribing it as "His will", that even their origins are steeped in it.

Yeah a sister will die in service without hesitation, but a failure of faith? Ohhh no that's too far gone, and suggesting that He was wrong in anything and acting on your own volition is a quick way to the repentia. That is why they live in constant fear of the repentia, because it represents a loss of faith.

So no, a SoB is not going to blast a rogue trader on suspicion. Even if it's a strong suspicion with a load of evidence to back it up, because at the end of the day he is still one of The Emperor's chosen agents. If it's not acting on "The Emperor's will" or an outright confession, they probably aren't doing it.

What can i say? nobody is faultless, if required the sister can demand and will resort to force if she deems it necessary. You can convince them that relic is safe, you can convince them that astartes which they often refer to as mutants are traitors(and we can argue if theyre even wrong considering track record) but once they discover treason there will be no mercy from them like in afforementioned age of apostasy example.

However it have to at least be hidden, open chaos symbols or relics, outright chaos worship or denouncing of emperor and theres no convincing sister.

[Antearz]

Originally posted by Voodoo:

Originally posted by Antearz:

Beyond that as explained. There is also Simply the Issue of Sisters Generally being very Obedient to Authority.
They have often been Fooled by Ruinous Agents in the Lore unable to Realize their Plans.
And they dont easily Question those who hold Exceedingly High Authority like a Rogue Trader or Inquisitor.

I disagree on that, entire reason theyve even been allowed to guard ecclesiarchy as loophole for "no men at arms" was due to their ties with inquisition which makes them perfect to execute a heretic priest.

also to quote inquisitors handbook.

"This is not simply because the Sororitas Career is a powerful option (and it
is unashamedly so) but because, if played correctly, a Sororitas
character is completely and utterly unforgiving of anyone and
anything that has truck with the forbidden in any form—
including other Acolytes, Radically inclined Inquisitors and
anybody marked by mutation or the alien. Be warned!"

they had to neuter the sister cause she simply would kill idira on the spot, eldar ranger on the spot, dark eldar on the spot and scoff at space wolf, navigator and techpriest and interrogator whenever she could.

The Simple Answer to that is that its a Difference between Reality and Ideal.
Dont Forget the Handbook effectively States the Imperial Truth. Not the Reality.

Sisters are Humans. A Fact all too often Highlighted in the Lore.

Its the same as Sisters of Battle if they Sin in Tought or Action Supposedly Reporting themselves to their Superior and if the Offense is Serious being turned into a Sister Repentia.

Not to mention that Sisters will Generally not "Scoff" at Astartes which are effectively the Sons of the Emperor.
Insulting an Astartes is a very Quick Way to have a Bolter Round in the Face.



Something to always be Noted in 40k Lore.
Do not Mistake Ideals for what is actually happening.
If everything Worked as the Ideal. Corruption and Heresy would basicly not Exist and Chaos would never be able to take Hold ;)

[Shad]

The thing about the heretical choices is that it is not a series incremental compromises gradually corrupting you, like for example the Eisenhorn series.

Nope, we go straight to "I love daemons and chaos gods" level heresy. I mean, actual in-game cultists are often much more subtle. It comes across as downright silly and immersion breaking sometimes.

And no, the Warrant in no way justifies it. Such open heresy is a violation of the obligations of a RT so the duty of any loyal servant of the imperium is to either take him down, or to report to all relevant authorities.

[Antearz]

Originally posted by Shad:

The thing about the heretical choices is that it is not a series incremental compromises gradually corrupting you, like for example the Eisenhorn series.

Nope, we go straight to "I love daemons and chaos gods" level heresy. I mean, actual in-game cultists are often much more subtle. It comes across as downright silly and immersion breaking sometimes.

And no, the Warrant in no way justifies it. Such open heresy is a violation of the obligations of a RT so the duty of any loyal servant of the imperium is to either take him down, or to report to all relevant authorities.

Its not about Justification. Its about Authority.

If You go Purely by what Qualifies as Heresy in the Imperium. 80% of the Imperial Nobles could be Executed on the Spot.
Which is often exactly what happens if an Inquisitor decides to Investigate them.
Becauuse he will Literally Walk in on a Bunch of Nobility which is far down the Chaos Route that they have Horns Growing out of their Bodies and Parts of their Skin Decaying or being Blackened Leather at this Point....
Yet. Until the Inquisitor Arrived. Nobody touched them.


Because here is where the Ideal of the Imperial Truth and the Actual Situation in the Lore go apart.
In Effect many an Inquisitor will Tolerate Debauchery and Heresy to a certain Level if his Goals are different.
And the Imperium itself often doesnt give a Crab what happens on a World as long as the Tithe is being Paid Reliably.
(This is no Joke by the Way. This goes as far as that the Imperium simply Ignored Rebellions taking over a Planet simply because the Rebels Proclaimed to be Loyal to the Imperium and Continued Paying the Tithe.)

If You go Purely by the Ideal. 99% of Rogue Traders are Heretics. So are over half of the Inquisitors themselves. Because they will often Employ Unsanctioned Psykers, Handle Heretic Artifacts and even Converse with Daemons sometimes.


But thats the thing.
If Your Authority is High Enough. You will not be Questioned. No matter your Actions.
Openly Accusing the Highest Present Authority. Or Attacking it. Is Generally a Quick Ticket to Execution as a Heretic.


Lets Face it.
If the Sister or the Interrogator had raised his Hand in this Situation.
The other Companions and the Ships Crew would Open Fire on them without Hesitation.
They would be Executet as Traitors and Heretics themselves Immediately.

[RestInPieces]

From my experience heresy has a lot of murder-hobo stuff that don't fit the rest of the dialogue. It has its great moments too, subtle corruption and justification, but it felt very rushed and not well thought of much of the time...

Unfortunately the game has great potential, but it feels REALLY rushed and unfinished and this extends to not only bugs and mechanics not working as intended, but also its content as well...

This is much worse than P:K in my experience and tbh if they crunched for this, their decision makers are idiots.

[Shad]

Originally posted by Antearz:

Its not about Justification. Its about Authority.

If You go Purely by what Qualifies as Heresy in the Imperium. 80% of the Imperial Nobles could be Executed on the Spot.

Yes and no.

Nobles hoarding the some xeno artifacts and such, sure it usually is overlooked until the neighbourhood inquisitor has some real questions.

Openly using xeno tech in battle: now it gets a bit iffy. Entire chapters of space marines were sent on penance crusades for this. Especially given the techpriest in your ranks/

Using heretical tomes/daemonic gear: now we are getting into iffy territory. Radical inquisitors are more or less the only people in the Imperium who can get away with this. And even they are regularly declared to have crossed the line and hunted down by other branches of the inquisition.

But as MC, you can go further and make open proclamations of love of chaos powers and open interest in chaos.


It's completely fine to have a heretical Rogue Trader. But subtlety and nuance are sorely lacking.

[Antearz]

Originally posted by Shad:

Originally posted by Antearz:

Its not about Justification. Its about Authority.

If You go Purely by what Qualifies as Heresy in the Imperium. 80% of the Imperial Nobles could be Executed on the Spot.

Yes and no.

Nobles hoarding the some xeno artifacts and such, sure it usually is overlooked until the neighbourhood inquisitor has some real questions.

Openly using xeno tech in battle: now it gets a bit iffy. Entire chapters of space marines were sent on penance crusades for this. Especially given the techpriest in your ranks/

Using heretical tomes/daemonic gear: now we are getting into iffy territory. Radical inquisitors are more or less the only people in the Imperium who can get away with this. And even they are regularly declared to have crossed the line and hunted down by other branches of the inquisition.

But as MC, you can go further and make open proclamations of love of chaos powers and open interest in chaos.


It's completely fine to have a heretical Rogue Trader. But subtlety and nuance are sorely lacking.

1.
I am not Talking about Hoarding Xeno Artifacts. Thats so Normal among Nobles that nobody even Bats an Eye. Most Inquisitors wont even bother with that unless one of the Artifacts is especially Dangerous.

I am Talking about Nobles effectively being Genestealer Cults, Mutants and Outright Chaos Worshippers which are so far down that Path that they barely Look Human anymore. And they will be Left alone for Literal Centuries because Nobody with the Authority to Oppose them is on the Planet.

2.
Fun Fact. For PDF Forces and Rogue Traders. Using Xeno Tech in Battle is Fairly common.
Same for the Inquisition itself.
The PFD often because Local Authorities especially on the Fringe Worlds away from the Core Imperium. Will often Trade with Xeno Planets and even have Formal Relations with some of them. Thus also often using Stuff from these Xenos.
Its actually the main Way for the Tau Empire to Usurp Human Worlds.
Needless to Say. While the Rogue Trader can Generally get away with this due to his Authority. Any Planetary Governor or Nobility which is Found doing this by a high enough Authority will usually be Purged.
But again. This can take literal Centuries before anyone of high enough Authority even Notices.

Imperial Guard is a bit of a Different Story of course. Because they tend are not under Local Authority but from the Start are under the Astra Militarum. Which is alot less Lax on that Front.

3.
That is False. You are not making this Declaration Openly.
You are making it inside a Small Group of Your Trusted Retinue. You are not Voxcasting it to the Imperium.
Check the War for Badab. And You will Find that even entire Space Marine Chapters can be turned to Chaos by their Leader. And that other Chapters will even Continue Supporting them for Decades and Centuries even after it has become Painfully Obvious that they are Traitors.
Chaos Cults form constantly in the Imperium exactly because it happens again and again that this kind of thing is Ignored and not immediately Challenged.

As I said before. You guys need to think about this a bit.
If like You guys claim here. Such stuff would get You Shot right away regardless of your Position. Then 90% of the Entire Lore would no longer make Sense and Chaos should barely ever be able to Subvert a Planet, Space Marine Chapter or other Imperial Authorities.





4.
Finally.
As on this clearly not being all to fluid and often being presented in a heavy handed and awkward way.
Uhm Yeah. We are Talking about Owlcat here.
I mean Seriously. Check out the Game.
40k Rogue Trader in terms of Story is Basicly a Reskin of Wrath of the Righteous.
Owlcat is not exactly Creative on this Front.
I mean Seriously. The Prologue, Chapter 1, Chapter 2 and even the massive Disconnect in Chapter 3.... Its all the same as Wrath of the Righteous.....

[Solomon Kane]

Originally posted by Antearz:

Originally posted by Shad:

Yes and no.

Nobles hoarding the some xeno artifacts and such, sure it usually is overlooked until the neighbourhood inquisitor has some real questions.

Openly using xeno tech in battle: now it gets a bit iffy. Entire chapters of space marines were sent on penance crusades for this. Especially given the techpriest in your ranks/

Using heretical tomes/daemonic gear: now we are getting into iffy territory. Radical inquisitors are more or less the only people in the Imperium who can get away with this. And even they are regularly declared to have crossed the line and hunted down by other branches of the inquisition.

But as MC, you can go further and make open proclamations of love of chaos powers and open interest in chaos.


It's completely fine to have a heretical Rogue Trader. But subtlety and nuance are sorely lacking.

1.
I am not Talking about Hoarding Xeno Artifacts. Thats so Normal among Nobles that nobody even Bats an Eye. Most Inquisitors wont even bother with that unless one of the Artifacts is especially Dangerous.

I am Talking about Nobles effectively being Genestealer Cults, Mutants and Outright Chaos Worshippers which are so far down that Path that they barely Look Human anymore. And they will be Left alone for Literal Centuries because Nobody with the Authority to Oppose them is on the Planet.

2.
Fun Fact. For PDF Forces and Rogue Traders. Using Xeno Tech in Battle is Fairly common.
Same for the Inquisition itself.
The PFD often because Local Authorities especially on the Fringe Worlds away from the Core Imperium. Will often Trade with Xeno Planets and even have Formal Relations with some of them. Thus also often using Stuff from these Xenos.
Its actually the main Way for the Tau Empire to Usurp Human Worlds.
Needless to Say. While the Rogue Trader can Generally get away with this due to his Authority. Any Planetary Governor or Nobility which is Found doing this by a high enough Authority will usually be Purged.
But again. This can take literal Centuries before anyone of high enough Authority even Notices.

Imperial Guard is a bit of a Different Story of course. Because they tend are not under Local Authority but from the Start are under the Astra Militarum. Which is alot less Lax on that Front.

3.
That is False. You are not making this Declaration Openly.
You are making it inside a Small Group of Your Trusted Retinue. You are not Voxcasting it to the Imperium.
Check the War for Badab. And You will Find that even entire Space Marine Chapters can be turned to Chaos by their Leader. And that other Chapters will even Continue Supporting them for Decades and Centuries even after it has become Painfully Obvious that they are Traitors.
Chaos Cults form constantly in the Imperium exactly because it happens again and again that this kind of thing is Ignored and not immediately Challenged.

As I said before. You guys need to think about this a bit.
If like You guys claim here. Such stuff would get You Shot right away regardless of your Position. Then 90% of the Entire Lore would no longer make Sense and Chaos should barely ever be able to Subvert a Planet, Space Marine Chapter or other Imperial Authorities.





4.
Finally.
As on this clearly not being all to fluid and often being presented in a heavy handed and awkward way.
Uhm Yeah. We are Talking about Owlcat here.
I mean Seriously. Check out the Game.
40k Rogue Trader in terms of Story is Basicly a Reskin of Wrath of the Righteous.
Owlcat is not exactly Creative on this Front.
I mean Seriously. The Prologue, Chapter 1, Chapter 2 and even the massive Disconnect in Chapter 3.... Its all the same as Wrath of the Righteous.....

There are exceptions as in Mutants not getting the Hammer, one would be the noble Navigator houses, which are all Bred Mutants in one way or another, the next would be the Ogryn.

There exist also, planets that have actual Orcs fighting under the Imperial Banner, big exceptionns, but, it happens.

[Goatmanpig]

Heinrix does draw a line with certain things, like Halo Devices

[Polupostage]

Originally posted by Goatmanpig:

Heinrix does draw a line with certain things, like Halo Devices

It doesn't mean much, Yrliet also prevents you, forcefully if it comes to it, from implanting it too. Which makes her ending even more bad seeing another proof of how she cares about you, thinking ot it.

[A Random ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Plebian]

Originally posted by Voodoo:

Originally posted by Solomon Kane:

This is utter nonsense, the Inquisition has branded several high ranking people in the past as Heretic, while this works on low ranking people and no names, Astartes or High Ranking people do not give a ♥♥♥♥, only because the Inquisition THINKS they can do, does not mean, they have any kind of pull outside the Inquisition.

Well argue with owlcat cause thats exactly what they put into game...

Hell in established lore only people who actually could go against inquisition and not face consequences were other inquisitors and guilliman

Bar some hiccups with companions relationships, maagical frigate and certain weapons owlcat did a pretty bang up job on lore in my opinion, with huge ceveat that i didnt play through entire game yet.

If we're being entirely fair, the Space Wolves declared open war on the Inquisition, killed a Lord Inquisitor, fronted off with the Grey Knights and actively and openly subverted several inquisitorial decrees. They technically WON the Months of Shame and the only comeuppance thus far as been "well don't do it again". The Inquisition has limitless authority in theory, but there are certain organisations - like First Founding Astartes chapters - that they don't have the resources to actually combat. Not least because the Inquisition isn't a unified group.

It's not unreasonable for a particularly established Rogue Trader to tell the Inquisition to eat ♥♥♥♥, but in game I don't think any of the three traders we're introduced to have that sort of power. MAYBE Calligos, but only because he loves collateral damage.

[Johnny 5]

Originally posted by XartaX:

Originally posted by PureOrionBelt:

Who is putting the bolter into the head? None of your companions would dare to do it, even Heinrix. It would take an Inquisitor or Crusader Leader to have the power over a Rogue Trader in their own worlds and ships. They are literal kings and answer only to the
Inquisitorial order and the High Lords of Terra

There are people in your party who already have

Explicit spoiler

Last warning

Argenta shot Theodora for fiddling with a chaos tainted item

I thought the spoiler warnings were referring to Hendrix 😭

[Antearz]

Originally posted by Solomon Kane:

Originally posted by Antearz:

1.
I am not Talking about Hoarding Xeno Artifacts. Thats so Normal among Nobles that nobody even Bats an Eye. Most Inquisitors wont even bother with that unless one of the Artifacts is especially Dangerous.

I am Talking about Nobles effectively being Genestealer Cults, Mutants and Outright Chaos Worshippers which are so far down that Path that they barely Look Human anymore. And they will be Left alone for Literal Centuries because Nobody with the Authority to Oppose them is on the Planet.

2.
Fun Fact. For PDF Forces and Rogue Traders. Using Xeno Tech in Battle is Fairly common.
Same for the Inquisition itself.
The PFD often because Local Authorities especially on the Fringe Worlds away from the Core Imperium. Will often Trade with Xeno Planets and even have Formal Relations with some of them. Thus also often using Stuff from these Xenos.
Its actually the main Way for the Tau Empire to Usurp Human Worlds.
Needless to Say. While the Rogue Trader can Generally get away with this due to his Authority. Any Planetary Governor or Nobility which is Found doing this by a high enough Authority will usually be Purged.
But again. This can take literal Centuries before anyone of high enough Authority even Notices.

Imperial Guard is a bit of a Different Story of course. Because they tend are not under Local Authority but from the Start are under the Astra Militarum. Which is alot less Lax on that Front.

3.
That is False. You are not making this Declaration Openly.
You are making it inside a Small Group of Your Trusted Retinue. You are not Voxcasting it to the Imperium.
Check the War for Badab. And You will Find that even entire Space Marine Chapters can be turned to Chaos by their Leader. And that other Chapters will even Continue Supporting them for Decades and Centuries even after it has become Painfully Obvious that they are Traitors.
Chaos Cults form constantly in the Imperium exactly because it happens again and again that this kind of thing is Ignored and not immediately Challenged.

As I said before. You guys need to think about this a bit.
If like You guys claim here. Such stuff would get You Shot right away regardless of your Position. Then 90% of the Entire Lore would no longer make Sense and Chaos should barely ever be able to Subvert a Planet, Space Marine Chapter or other Imperial Authorities.





4.
Finally.
As on this clearly not being all to fluid and often being presented in a heavy handed and awkward way.
Uhm Yeah. We are Talking about Owlcat here.
I mean Seriously. Check out the Game.
40k Rogue Trader in terms of Story is Basicly a Reskin of Wrath of the Righteous.
Owlcat is not exactly Creative on this Front.
I mean Seriously. The Prologue, Chapter 1, Chapter 2 and even the massive Disconnect in Chapter 3.... Its all the same as Wrath of the Righteous.....

There are exceptions as in Mutants not getting the Hammer, one would be the noble Navigator houses, which are all Bred Mutants in one way or another, the next would be the Ogryn.

There exist also, planets that have actual Orcs fighting under the Imperial Banner, big exceptionns, but, it happens.

Yes. But these are considered Stable Abhuman Strains.
Not Mutants.

[Voodoo]

Originally posted by A Random ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Plebian:

Originally posted by Voodoo:

Well argue with owlcat cause thats exactly what they put into game...

Hell in established lore only people who actually could go against inquisition and not face consequences were other inquisitors and guilliman

Bar some hiccups with companions relationships, maagical frigate and certain weapons owlcat did a pretty bang up job on lore in my opinion, with huge ceveat that i didnt play through entire game yet.

If we're being entirely fair, the Space Wolves declared open war on the Inquisition, killed a Lord Inquisitor, fronted off with the Grey Knights and actively and openly subverted several inquisitorial decrees. They technically WON the Months of Shame and the only comeuppance thus far as been "well don't do it again". The Inquisition has limitless authority in theory, but there are certain organisations - like First Founding Astartes chapters - that they don't have the resources to actually combat. Not least because the Inquisition isn't a unified group.

It's not unreasonable for a particularly established Rogue Trader to tell the Inquisition to eat ♥♥♥♥, but in game I don't think any of the three traders we're introduced to have that sort of power. MAYBE Calligos, but only because he loves collateral damage.

Again yes and no.

Halfway through campaign inquisition had to acknowledge that they just lost control over situation, even if the lord inquisitor wasnt killed he would most likely face some consequences not because space wolves but because he destroyed couple irreplacable worlds for honestly no good reason.

Also the only forces inquisition had at hand were grey knights(which have to kill anyone who learns about their existence) and the point was to stop information about chaos spreading, both were reasons why inquisition couldnt just requisition more forces.

Entire situation was more "ok we ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, so you can get away with it this time" rather than hard limit on inquisition power.

Finally, no amount of authority will protect you from bullet, if inquisitor get killed inquisitions position will largely be "if he didnt prepare its his fault".

So yes, rogue trader(and anyone else by extension) can tell inquisitor to get bent and its "you and what army" situation, but competent inquisitor will already have some contingency plan prepared, be it assassin, fleet or anything else they might use.

Its already outright spelled out that inquisition have spies on both your worlds and on your ship, your aquilla lander might just have an accident, aa cannon might "malfunction" and shoot it down as you prepare to land on your capital planet, assassin might just sneak into quarters and take you out, poisoned food, life support sabotage...etc etc.