can someone explain why they made guns so unfair to YOU in particular

[memeules rift]

plasma pistol single shot, miss, single shot, miss, charged shot, hits my guy instead doing crit damage killing him on the spot, enemy turn, has a sniper rifle, crit hit and dose 68 damage killing me, reloads to last save.

can someone explain how an bozo with a scrapy lazgun can do crit dammage to my whole party but every time i dare shoot a gun of any kind i minus well be shooting into the warp? like BRUH

and the fact that the game expects me to do math to find factors dives me insane

[HuffingJenkem]

Forget everything you know about what 40K guns should do - Owlcat chucked that all out to make every gun useful for the theorycrafters. Lasers aren't a ♥♥♥♥-tier mass produced alternative to autoguns, they're a way to build a character to deal with high dodge enemies and cover. Autoguns and stub guns aren't a ♥♥♥♥-tier mass-produced alternative to lasguns, they're a way to build a character around overpenetration.

It's 40K in name only when it comes to equipment.

[Hathur]

Plasma became useful later in game (roughly mid game) when your Ballistic skill has been raised and you have some means to improve your accuracy with gear / abilities. Once you aren't low level, aiming with it is reliable.

At lower levels I stuck to burst fire for most ranged characters, always landed at least a few hits that way.. just had to make sure to keep my characters out of each others firing lines. Later on, single shot weapons become more reliable due to better skill.. but frankl I still stick to burst fire rifles or pistols most of the time, it just kills so much faster in most situations.

[Daliena]

Give a spec-ops veteran and Billy Bob the same gun, and I'm going to say that the former is probably going to be more accurate with it. It's down to Ballistic Skill (among other factors) to determine how likely you are to hit.

Originally posted by HuffingJenkem:

Forget everything you know about what 40K guns should do - Owlcat chucked that all out to make every gun useful for the theorycrafters. Lasers aren't a ♥♥♥♥-tier mass produced alternative to autoguns, they're a way to build a character to deal with high dodge enemies and cover. Autoguns and stub guns aren't a ♥♥♥♥-tier mass-produced alternative to lasguns, they're a way to build a character around overpenetration.

It's 40K in name only when it comes to equipment.

I think you maybe never played the tabletop games (the RPGs, not the wargames) that this is based off of.

Dark Heresy Lasgun - 4-13 damage, 0 armor penetration, resistant to weapon jams. Dark Heresy Bolter - 6-15 damage, penetrates 4 armor, rolls damage twice and keeps the higher result.

Yeah the bolter did quite a bit more damage (though it was harder to get your hands on), but it wasn't anywhere near the colossal difference you'd see in the lore because yaknow.. Balance.

[memeules rift]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Give a spec-ops veteran and Billy Bob the same gun, and I'm going to say that the former is probably going to be more accurate with it. It's down to Ballistic Skill (among other factors) to determine how likely you are to hit.

Originally posted by HuffingJenkem:

Forget everything you know about what 40K guns should do - Owlcat chucked that all out to make every gun useful for the theorycrafters. Lasers aren't a ♥♥♥♥-tier mass produced alternative to autoguns, they're a way to build a character to deal with high dodge enemies and cover. Autoguns and stub guns aren't a ♥♥♥♥-tier mass-produced alternative to lasguns, they're a way to build a character around overpenetration.

It's 40K in name only when it comes to equipment.

I think you maybe never played the tabletop games (the RPGs, not the wargames) that this is based off of.

Dark Heresy Lasgun - 4-13 damage, 0 armor penetration, resistant to weapon jams. Dark Heresy Bolter - 6-15 damage, penetrates 4 armor, rolls damage twice and keeps the higher result.

Yeah the bolter did quite a bit more damage (though it was harder to get your hands on), but it wasn't anywhere near the colossal difference you'd see in the lore because yaknow.. Balance.

first of all yes i have second of all that that means nothing, im not talking about damage, im talking about your players hit chance being severely less then your opponents. what are you trying to prove mister brag alot?

[Daliena]

Originally posted by memeules rift:

first of ah yes i have second of all that that means nothing, mi not talking about damage, im talking about your players hit chance being severely less then your opponents. what are you trying to prove mister brag alot?

I was talking to a different person than you with that. You can see that, right? Me quoting HuffingJenkem before what I wrote there, NOT YOU?

Secondly, tabletop and here, chance to hit has never been equal just like that. There's always been varying modifiers to it. Ballistic skill for your chance to hit, range, obstructions like cover, etc etc.

A derp with a base 30 ballistic skill is obviously going to be a worse shot than someone with 100.

[memeules rift]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by memeules rift:

first of ah yes i have second of all that that means nothing, mi not talking about damage, im talking about your players hit chance being severely less then your opponents. what are you trying to prove mister brag alot?

I was talking to a different person than you with that. You can see that, right? Me quoting HuffingJenkem before what I wrote there, NOT YOU?

Secondly, tabletop and here, chance to hit has never been equal just like that. There's always been varying modifiers to it. Ballistic skill for your chance to hit, range, obstructions like cover, etc etc.

A derp with a base 30 ballistic skill is obviously going to be a worse shot than someone with 100.

i know i said this to your response, it came of as oh look at me i have experience in all these table top games so im better, sorry for the aggressive reaction, i just hate people like that

[HuffingJenkem]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Give a spec-ops veteran and Billy Bob the same gun, and I'm going to say that the former is probably going to be more accurate with it. It's down to Ballistic Skill (among other factors) to determine how likely you are to hit.

Originally posted by HuffingJenkem:

Forget everything you know about what 40K guns should do - Owlcat chucked that all out to make every gun useful for the theorycrafters. Lasers aren't a ♥♥♥♥-tier mass produced alternative to autoguns, they're a way to build a character to deal with high dodge enemies and cover. Autoguns and stub guns aren't a ♥♥♥♥-tier mass-produced alternative to lasguns, they're a way to build a character around overpenetration.

It's 40K in name only when it comes to equipment.

I think you maybe never played the tabletop games (the RPGs, not the wargames) that this is based off of.

Dark Heresy Lasgun - 4-13 damage, 0 armor penetration, resistant to weapon jams. Dark Heresy Bolter - 6-15 damage, penetrates 4 armor, rolls damage twice and keeps the higher result.

Yeah the bolter did quite a bit more damage (though it was harder to get your hands on), but it wasn't anywhere near the colossal difference you'd see in the lore because yaknow.. Balance.

Which means the lasgun is going to do, on average, 2 points of damage to a typical enemy, assuming a Toughness bonus of 3 and Flak armour - (5.5 + 3 - 4 - 3, rounding up)

Bolter is going to do 9 damage on average to the same enemy - (7.15 + 5 - 3), and it's capable of full auto, and it can take specialist loads.

[memeules rift]

Originally posted by memeules rift:

Originally posted by Daliena:

I was talking to a different person than you with that. You can see that, right? Me quoting HuffingJenkem before what I wrote there, NOT YOU?

Secondly, tabletop and here, chance to hit has never been equal just like that. There's always been varying modifiers to it. Ballistic skill for your chance to hit, range, obstructions like cover, etc etc.

A derp with a base 30 ballistic skill is obviously going to be a worse shot than someone with 100.

i know i said this to your response, it came of as oh look at me i have experience in all these table top games so im better, sorry for the aggressive reaction, i just hate people like that

and to add to your statement thats kinda why im confuesd and up set, my guy has a BS of 60, and im fighting people with a BS of 30

[Daliena]

Originally posted by memeules rift:

Originally posted by Daliena:

I was talking to a different person than you with that. You can see that, right? Me quoting HuffingJenkem before what I wrote there, NOT YOU?

Secondly, tabletop and here, chance to hit has never been equal just like that. There's always been varying modifiers to it. Ballistic skill for your chance to hit, range, obstructions like cover, etc etc.

A derp with a base 30 ballistic skill is obviously going to be a worse shot than someone with 100.

i know i said this to your response, it came of as oh look at me i have experience in all these table top games so im better, sorry for the aggressive reaction, i just hate people like that

Yeah, alright. Sorry. I kinda flared off there too. I just kinda get frustrated at the "Devs are desecrating what things should be like!" posts like what that guy made when.. Well, there's been fifty different editions of the tabletop games throughout the decades where it do be like that, and that's what Owlcat drew from.

[memeules rift]

Originally posted by HuffingJenkem:

Originally posted by Daliena:

Give a spec-ops veteran and Billy Bob the same gun, and I'm going to say that the former is probably going to be more accurate with it. It's down to Ballistic Skill (among other factors) to determine how likely you are to hit.



I think you maybe never played the tabletop games (the RPGs, not the wargames) that this is based off of.

Dark Heresy Lasgun - 4-13 damage, 0 armor penetration, resistant to weapon jams. Dark Heresy Bolter - 6-15 damage, penetrates 4 armor, rolls damage twice and keeps the higher result.

Yeah the bolter did quite a bit more damage (though it was harder to get your hands on), but it wasn't anywhere near the colossal difference you'd see in the lore because yaknow.. Balance.

Which means the lasgun is going to do, on average, 2 points of damage to a typical enemy, assuming a Toughness bonus of 3 and Flak armour - (5.5 + 3 - 4 - 3, rounding up)

Bolter is going to do 9 damage on average to the same enemy - (7.15 + 5 - 3), and it's capable of full auto, and it can take specialist loads.

this is true, but not exactly my problem its not damage its the one sided hit chance

[memeules rift]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by memeules rift:

i know i said this to your response, it came of as oh look at me i have experience in all these table top games so im better, sorry for the aggressive reaction, i just hate people like that

Yeah, alright. Sorry. I kinda flared off there too. I just kinda get frustrated at the "Devs are desecrating what things should be like!" posts like what that guy made when.. Well, there's been fifty different editions of the tabletop games throughout the decades where it do be like that, and that's what Owlcat drew from.

well, i guess people just want the best for the game, most people only play the skirmish games though, and arnt used to a system like this, i feel like both sides have valid and some dumb arguments i guess XD

[Daliena]

Originally posted by HuffingJenkem:

Which means the lasgun is going to do, on average, 2 points of damage to a typical enemy, assuming a Toughness bonus of 3 and Flak armour - (5.5 + 3 - 4 - 3, rounding up)

Bolter is going to do 9 damage on average to the same enemy - (7.15 + 5 - 3), and it's capable of full auto, and it can take specialist loads.

Actually, if I'm reading these rules right (it's been a while since I played), both the Lasgun and Bolter are restricted to burst fire, 3 round bursts for the Lasgun and 2 round bursts for the Bolter.

Of course in the lore pretty sure both are capable of full-auto, but them's what Dark Heresy says. The bolter obviously outperforms it, but it's also colossally more expensive - and rare, even if you have the funds.

If you wanted something comparable in acquisition, there's the D'laku Crusade pattern Hellgun. 1d10+3, Pen 4, fire modes of single shot/3 round burst/5 round auto fire. Similar cost but much easier to actually find someone selling one.

Bolter could well win out with specialized ammunition loads (provided you can afford them and find someone who sells them) or with good use of the Tearing special rule to reroll damage and keep the better results.

Honestly though, these things can vary between game lines - and editions. If you jump from DH to Rogue Trader, you've got the Locke-pattern Boltgun (which is still one of the human-usable models) and it's now got a 4-round full auto setting.

Ah well. I'm sorry for getting passive-aggressive like that, all in all.

[HuffingJenkem]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by HuffingJenkem:

Which means the lasgun is going to do, on average, 2 points of damage to a typical enemy, assuming a Toughness bonus of 3 and Flak armour - (5.5 + 3 - 4 - 3, rounding up)

Bolter is going to do 9 damage on average to the same enemy - (7.15 + 5 - 3), and it's capable of full auto, and it can take specialist loads.

Actually, if I'm reading these rules right (it's been a while since I played), both the Lasgun and Bolter are restricted to burst fire, 3 round bursts for the Lasgun and 2 round bursts for the Bolter.

Of course in the lore pretty sure both are capable of full-auto, but them's what Dark Heresy says. The bolter obviously outperforms it, but it's also colossally more expensive - and rare, even if you have the funds.

If you wanted something comparable in acquisition, there's the D'laku Crusade pattern Hellgun. 1d10+3, Pen 4, fire modes of single shot/3 round burst/5 round auto fire. Similar cost but much easier to actually find someone selling one.

Bolter could well win out with specialized ammunition loads (provided you can afford them and find someone who sells them) or with good use of the Tearing special rule to reroll damage and keep the better results.

Honestly though, these things can vary between game lines - and editions. If you jump from DH to Rogue Trader, you've got the Locke-pattern Boltgun (which is still one of the human-usable models) and it's now got a 4-round full auto setting.

Ah well. I'm sorry for getting passive-aggressive like that, all in all.

Not a problem. I was actually looking at RT rules because I couldn't find my DH books, so may be wrong on the full auto. My point though (and maybe I'm being unfair to them) is that Owlcat don't seem to have had much interest in adapting Rogue Trader as much as they wanted to do their own combat system and slapped 40K onto it. It's a bit like when you see a favourite book adapted by Netflix and Amazon and after the first episode you realise the director actually wanted to tell their own story but bought the IP for funding and name recognition.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Originally posted by HuffingJenkem:

Forget everything you know about what 40K guns should do - Owlcat chucked that all out to make every gun useful for the theorycrafters. Lasers aren't a ♥♥♥♥-tier mass produced alternative to autoguns, they're a way to build a character to deal with high dodge enemies and cover. Autoguns and stub guns aren't a ♥♥♥♥-tier mass-produced alternative to lasguns, they're a way to build a character around overpenetration.

It's 40K in name only when it comes to equipment.

Just want to point out that at no point in the lore have Las weapons or Stub weapons been actually weak. Sure there are low end variations like your basic Agrippa autogun or Locke pattern lasgun.... But on the same note we have Stub guns with expander rounds and other specialized ammunition, as well as shotguns to include Naval Shotcannons. And Hotshot lasguns and many many many other variations that all vary heavily in power.

It is Layperson thoughts that would assume the weapons of the Imperium are weak just cause of the ammunition they fire.

Originally posted by memeules rift:

Originally posted by HuffingJenkem:

Which means the lasgun is going to do, on average, 2 points of damage to a typical enemy, assuming a Toughness bonus of 3 and Flak armour - (5.5 + 3 - 4 - 3, rounding up)

Bolter is going to do 9 damage on average to the same enemy - (7.15 + 5 - 3), and it's capable of full auto, and it can take specialist loads.

this is true, but not exactly my problem its not damage its the one sided hit chance

just wanted to point out that some encounters have bugs with high cover not counting properly not sure if they patched it yet. How ever ya its alot of luck and cover. There are a handfull of abilities you can get to help you depending on class like the... i think its warrior w.e class argenta is gets Entrench for a massive cover buff.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Originally posted by memeules rift:

Originally posted by memeules rift:

i know i said this to your response, it came of as oh look at me i have experience in all these table top games so im better, sorry for the aggressive reaction, i just hate people like that

and to add to your statement thats kinda why im confuesd and up set, my guy has a BS of 60, and im fighting people with a BS of 30

Also bear in mind that generally your fighting like 3x as many people so it can feel like there hitting more then you but really its just they get 6x more trys to hit you then you get them cause of the number of enemies.