MEh combat design

[Porkie]

I guess when you aren't talented enough to design good tactical combat encounters, like in stuff like Divinity or BG3, you instead have to make the player spend more time in the character levelup screen than in the actual game, and flood him with so many useless clutter abilities and perks in an effort to obfuscate the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of the encounter designs.

[Viper]

Origineel geplaatst door HuffingJenkem:

Origineel geplaatst door Viper:

So..Its not using 40K rules in any way. SO why would that matter.

What does 40K have to do with this? I'm talking about the Rogue Trader RPG that Owlcat are claiming to have adapted.

well ITs not part of it..get over it. ANd Rogue Trader is 40K..lol

[Jack Sparrow]

Origineel geplaatst door Viper:

Origineel geplaatst door HuffingJenkem:

What does 40K have to do with this? I'm talking about the Rogue Trader RPG that Owlcat are claiming to have adapted.

well ITs not part of it..get over it.

"Im hilariously wrong about everything i comment on, get over it"

[I Denizen I]

Origineel geplaatst door Viper:

Origineel geplaatst door Revener:

What are you smoking? :)
Overwatch is common in turn based games, so common that players ask why it is not i games that lack the feature.

Over watch is a game ability not a 40 K thing. Live without it. If you can't figure out the combat strategies then its a you problem.

Overwatch was a staple of WH40k.
It was also a staple of SpaceHulk. (another 40k game with Genestealers and Terminators.)

I started playing 40k in the 80's, I also worked for GW, 80's/90's.

[Xafron Chi]

Origineel geplaatst door revan1229:

Stacking barrels is exceedingly fun? Having multiple ways to solve combat encounters is exclusive to Larian...?

Are you so bad at Baldurs Gate 3 that you were forced to stack barrels anytime the combat got a little tough? That's sad,

[HuffingJenkem]

Origineel geplaatst door I Denizen I:

Origineel geplaatst door Viper:

Over watch is a game ability not a 40 K thing. Live without it. If you can't figure out the combat strategies then its a you problem.

Overwatch was a staple of WH40k.
It was also a staple of SpaceHulk. (another 40k game with Genestealers and Terminators.)

I started playing 40k in the 80's, I also worked for GW, 80's/90's.

Always amazes me that the same team who produced the absolute mess of 1st/2nd ed 40K did the incredible Space Hulk.

[Xhal]

Divinity had garbage encounter design, all you can do is cheese stuff to ridiculous degree or get swarmed by way too powerful opponents.

Thankfully they learned their lesson in BG3 and its not as terrible.

[Viper]

I doubt very many care.Its a great game .A lot of fun. Who cares if they faithfully recreated some rules system.Not many 42K where playing earlier.

[DaveDash]

Origineel geplaatst door Illusioneer:

Origineel geplaatst door DaveDash:

The indie developers behind Solasta designed a far better tactical combat system than BG3. BG3's combat system is actually trash, between pathing issues and "can't move here" and LoS issues the combat system in BG3 was probably the worst part of the game. They also made a mockery of the D&D 5e system.

Now having said that, this game also leaves a lot to be desired. Too buggy. If the indie devs behind Solasta can do a great job (Tactical Adventures), there's no excuse for Owlcat games.

Care to elaborate on how Larian mocked 5e's rules?

I've been playing D&D and other TTRPG's for 12 years, and from my perma-dm perspective, Larian did a fantastic, near perfect job of faithfully adapting 5e's rules.

To that end, I strongly disagree that BG3's combat isn't good. It's a whole lot of fun. It wouldn't have won GOTY if it was sub-par, especially considering it's competition. This year was a surprisingly good year for gaming and Larian had some big titles to compete with, yet they won with a crpg. That says something regardless of your personal opinions on the game.

And in regards to the issues, most of those have been or is busy being resolved in patches. I played BG3 earlier today, experienced no issues outside of my ass being handed to me because I'm a dum dum.

Hmm ok where to begin:

- Way too many surfaces and exploding things. My entire party got wiped once entering into the Goblin camp due to one flaming arrow that also hit a barrel. Doesn't exist in D&D 5e.

- Bonuses to attack from high ground. Doesn't exist in D&D 5e and makes high ground way too powerful in BG3.

- Throwables that damage on a MISS. Doesn't exist in D&D and makes AC worthless.

- Butchered so many spells because their engine was not designed for 5e. For example Spiritual weapon is now an actual weapon that can be damaged and has its own initiative? wtf?

- Lack of proper bonus action economy which is actually a core part of the D&D system. Means things like lack of dodge mechanic as well. Limiting tactical options that you get in real D&D. Half assed reactions, no ready, etc.

And a whole host more that I could go into, such as the absolutely pathetic pathing system, SUPER annoying "rubber band" system that keeps your party glued together unless you specifically break it, your party members walking into traps (something other RGPs have solved years ago), JUMPING mechanic (holy heck that was such a stupid addition the game, everything was like leapfrogging), and a whole lot more. Or how about up the ladder, down the ladder, up the ladder, down the ladder. Wee horrible pathing and camera for the win.

It's objective reality that the game is an absolute mess of the D&D system. Again, an INDIE developer absolutely nailed it in Solasta Crown of the Magistar. But between Larian's crappy turn based engine and their own fiddling and tweaking, they made a pretty poor combat system overall. I've played nearly every half decent turn based game on the market and theirs is pretty much near the bottom in terms of quality.

They won GOTY due to emotional investment in Larian themselves as a developer due to their commercial "no DLC model". Gamers lap that up these days. Meanwhile the game was buggy as heck on release, wasn't even finished (the vast majority of players did not make it out of Act 1 and never saw the mess Act 3 was), and it's basically the "my first CRPG for babies" for many people who really didn't know that better games existed out there. Pretty poor character customisation too. It pretty much won on the fact that it was just filled with horny.

[Jack Sparrow]

Origineel geplaatst door DaveDash:

Origineel geplaatst door Illusioneer:

Care to elaborate on how Larian mocked 5e's rules?

I've been playing D&D and other TTRPG's for 12 years, and from my perma-dm perspective, Larian did a fantastic, near perfect job of faithfully adapting 5e's rules.

To that end, I strongly disagree that BG3's combat isn't good. It's a whole lot of fun. It wouldn't have won GOTY if it was sub-par, especially considering it's competition. This year was a surprisingly good year for gaming and Larian had some big titles to compete with, yet they won with a crpg. That says something regardless of your personal opinions on the game.

And in regards to the issues, most of those have been or is busy being resolved in patches. I played BG3 earlier today, experienced no issues outside of my ass being handed to me because I'm a dum dum.

Hmm ok where to begin:

- Way too many surfaces. My entire party got wiped once entering into the Goblin camp due to one flaming arrow that also hit a barrel. Doesn't exist in D&D 5e.

- Bonuses to attack from high ground. Doesn't exist in D&D 5e and makes high ground way too powerful in BG3.

- Throwables that damage on a MISS. Doesn't exist in D&D and makes AC worthless.

- Butchered so many spells because their engine was not designed for 5e. For example Spiritual weapon is now an actual weapon that can be damaged and has it's own initiative? wtf?

- Lack of proper bonus action economy which is actually a core part of the D&D system. Means things like lack of dodge mechanic as well. Limiting tactical options that you get in real D&D. Half assed reactions, no ready, etc.

And a whole host more that I could go into, such as the absolutely pathetic pathing system, SUPER annoying "rubber band" system that keeps your party glued together unless you specifically break it, your party members walking into traps (something other RGPs have solved years ago), JUMPING mechanic (♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that was such a stupid addition the game, everything was like leapfrogging), and a whole lot more.

It's objective reality that the game is an absolute butcher of the D&D system. Again, an INDIE developer absolute nailed it in Solasta Crown of the Magistar. But between Larian's crappy turn based engine and their own fiddling and tweaking, they made a pretty piss poor combat system overall.

They won GOTY due to emotional investment. The game was buggy as ♥♥♥♥ on release, wasn't even finished (the vast majority of players did not make it out of Act 1), and it's basically the "my first CRPG" for many people who really didn't know that better games existed out there. Pretty poor character customisation too. It pretty much won on the fact that it was just filled with horny.

"Emotional investment" lmfao, that pretty much sums up every owlcat fan boy's wilfull ignorance to the vast issues and lack of polish in rogue trader.

[I Denizen I]

Origineel geplaatst door HuffingJenkem:

Origineel geplaatst door I Denizen I:

Overwatch was a staple of WH40k.
It was also a staple of SpaceHulk. (another 40k game with Genestealers and Terminators.)

I started playing 40k in the 80's, I also worked for GW, 80's/90's.

Always amazes me that the same team who produced the absolute mess of 1st/2nd ed 40K did the incredibly Space Hulk.

The 1st edition wH40k Rogue Trader? man I remember getting that book for Christmas with the Crimson Fist marines on the front cover. From what little I can remember it was like a hybrid rpg / army game, rules for units and then heroes had crazy stuff like a power board for stupid movement, or bionic legs that gave em move x4.
I'll never forget a guy actually built a Baneblade super heavy tank and it took up a 3rd of the table in GW Manchester and my mate was playing Harlequins vrs his Imp Guard, and a Solitaire moved like 36 inches across the board flipped itself on the SH and then dropped a Vortex grenade on the middle of it....see you later SH tank, guy was heartbroken lol.

Good memories.

As for the OP, the combat is sufficient, it's not ground breaking, but its a top down rpg I mean it's never going to be ground breaking. And I have like 400 hours in BG3, and combat their is far from perfection, its adequate at best.

[DaveDash]

Origineel geplaatst door Longdick Johnson:

Origineel geplaatst door DaveDash:

Hmm ok where to begin:

- Way too many surfaces. My entire party got wiped once entering into the Goblin camp due to one flaming arrow that also hit a barrel. Doesn't exist in D&D 5e.

- Bonuses to attack from high ground. Doesn't exist in D&D 5e and makes high ground way too powerful in BG3.

- Throwables that damage on a MISS. Doesn't exist in D&D and makes AC worthless.

- Butchered so many spells because their engine was not designed for 5e. For example Spiritual weapon is now an actual weapon that can be damaged and has it's own initiative? wtf?

- Lack of proper bonus action economy which is actually a core part of the D&D system. Means things like lack of dodge mechanic as well. Limiting tactical options that you get in real D&D. Half assed reactions, no ready, etc.

And a whole host more that I could go into, such as the absolutely pathetic pathing system, SUPER annoying "rubber band" system that keeps your party glued together unless you specifically break it, your party members walking into traps (something other RGPs have solved years ago), JUMPING mechanic (♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that was such a stupid addition the game, everything was like leapfrogging), and a whole lot more.

It's objective reality that the game is an absolute butcher of the D&D system. Again, an INDIE developer absolute nailed it in Solasta Crown of the Magistar. But between Larian's crappy turn based engine and their own fiddling and tweaking, they made a pretty piss poor combat system overall.

They won GOTY due to emotional investment. The game was buggy as ♥♥♥♥ on release, wasn't even finished (the vast majority of players did not make it out of Act 1), and it's basically the "my first CRPG" for many people who really didn't know that better games existed out there. Pretty poor character customisation too. It pretty much won on the fact that it was just filled with horny.

"Emotional investment" lmfao, that pretty much sums up every owlcat fan boy's wilfull ignorance to the vast issues and lack of polish in rogue trader.

Owlcat fanboy? Dude I have been super critical of this release from them. It's a mess, I've spent more time fighting bugs that I have fighting enemies.

But they did nail the atmosphere and didn't make horny campy 40k at least.

[HuffingJenkem]

Origineel geplaatst door I Denizen I:

Origineel geplaatst door HuffingJenkem:

Always amazes me that the same team who produced the absolute mess of 1st/2nd ed 40K did the incredibly Space Hulk.

The 1st edition wH40k Rogue Trader? man I remember getting that book for Christmas with the Crimson Fist marines on the front cover. From what little I can remember it was like a hybrid rpg / army game, rules for units and then heroes had crazy stuff like a power board for stupid movement, or bionic legs that gave em move x4.
I'll never forget a guy actually built a Baneblade super heavy tank and it took up a 3rd of the table in GW Manchester and my mate was playing Harlequins vrs his Imp Guard, and a Solitaire moved like 36 inches across the board flipped itself on the SH and then dropped a Vortex grenade on the middle of it....see you later SH tank, guy was heartbroken lol.

Good memories.

As for the OP, the combat is sufficient, it's not ground breaking, but its a top down rpg I mean it's never going to be ground breaking. And I have like 400 hours in BG3, and combat their is far from perfection, its adequate at best.

Vortex and Virus grenades were hilariously broken, as were the Ork weapon customisation rules (sustained fire lascannon pistol with AoE was possible). They couldn't seem to make their mind up whether it was a competitive wargame or a GM'ed RPG with a referee to oversee all the randomness.

[Natas]

Origineel geplaatst door Illusioneer:

Origineel geplaatst door revan1229:

Lol at Larian designing good tactical encounters. Not enough barrels in this game for you?

Lol at this comment. Larian did in fact design exceedingly fun combat encounters that presents the player multiple ways to achieve victory (Or TPK himself)

But to the OP, BG3 and DnD 5e's primary mechanical focus is combat. I'm currently waiting on my Day Before refund to purchase Rogue Trader, but by the looks of it, it puts much more focus on it's general crpg mechanics rather than combat alone. So I don't think the combat is really intended to compete with BG3.

In bg3 you can literally cheese every single combat with a thief and hide while the enemy AI stand still and get shot from range without doing anything. Your high on copium if you think combat in bg3 is ground breaking.

[Illusioneer]

Origineel geplaatst door DaveDash:

Origineel geplaatst door Illusioneer:

Care to elaborate on how Larian mocked 5e's rules?

I've been playing D&D and other TTRPG's for 12 years, and from my perma-dm perspective, Larian did a fantastic, near perfect job of faithfully adapting 5e's rules.

To that end, I strongly disagree that BG3's combat isn't good. It's a whole lot of fun. It wouldn't have won GOTY if it was sub-par, especially considering it's competition. This year was a surprisingly good year for gaming and Larian had some big titles to compete with, yet they won with a crpg. That says something regardless of your personal opinions on the game.

And in regards to the issues, most of those have been or is busy being resolved in patches. I played BG3 earlier today, experienced no issues outside of my ass being handed to me because I'm a dum dum.

Hmm ok where to begin:

- Way too many surfaces and exploding things. My entire party got wiped once entering into the Goblin camp due to one flaming arrow that also hit a barrel. Doesn't exist in D&D 5e.

- Bonuses to attack from high ground. Doesn't exist in D&D 5e and makes high ground way too powerful in BG3.

- Throwables that damage on a MISS. Doesn't exist in D&D and makes AC worthless.

- Butchered so many spells because their engine was not designed for 5e. For example Spiritual weapon is now an actual weapon that can be damaged and has its own initiative? wtf?

- Lack of proper bonus action economy which is actually a core part of the D&D system. Means things like lack of dodge mechanic as well. Limiting tactical options that you get in real D&D. Half assed reactions, no ready, etc.

And a whole host more that I could go into, such as the absolutely pathetic pathing system, SUPER annoying "rubber band" system that keeps your party glued together unless you specifically break it, your party members walking into traps (something other RGPs have solved years ago), JUMPING mechanic (holy heck that was such a stupid addition the game, everything was like leapfrogging), and a whole lot more. Or how about up the ladder, down the ladder, up the ladder, down the ladder. Wee horrible pathing and camera for the win.

It's objective reality that the game is an absolute mess of the D&D system. Again, an INDIE developer absolutely nailed it in Solasta Crown of the Magistar. But between Larian's crappy turn based engine and their own fiddling and tweaking, they made a pretty poor combat system overall. I've played nearly every half decent turn based game on the market and theirs is pretty much near the bottom in terms of quality.

They won GOTY due to emotional investment in Larian themselves as a developer due to their commercial "no DLC model". Gamers lap that up these days. Meanwhile the game was buggy as heck on release, wasn't even finished (the vast majority of players did not make it out of Act 1 and never saw the mess Act 3 was), and it's basically the "my first CRPG for babies" for many people who really didn't know that better games existed out there. Pretty poor character customisation too. It pretty much won on the fact that it was just filled with horny.

In order:

- These "surfaces and exploding things" and other such "traps" are normal staples of DnD games. If your DM was not describing or using your environment during combat nor using traps or hazards as obstacles then you had a bad DM. The DMG includes a guide on how to to describe and use environments and how to prepare traps.

- All it gives you is advantage. Most half-decent GM's would concede giving you advantage for high ground if asked and rules-as-written the player's guide and DMG encourage this kind of usage of the rules. True, this wasn't precisely described as a rule, but if it were a hard-coded rule it would be a good one. It adds a lot of strategic depth and verticality to BG3's combat.

- Completely untrue. If I go buy a gunpowder keg, and describe to my GM that I'm gonna throw it in the general direction of my target rather than aim for him, he will allow me to do so. He will ask for a roll, but if I fail that roll, he will likely have me drop it and kill myself as the consequence.

- This was more done for time and balance reasons than lack of ability. Does the way Spiritual Weapon function honestly and actually bother you? Even if the spells don't follow the exact rules 1 for 1 (Which many do), they certainly follow the spirit of the rules.


- Bonus actions work exactly as written in 5e's rules. Beyond class features, Bonus actions can't be used for things such as dodging. Trying to implement prepared actions would have been a nightmare to achieve and would break the flow of gameplay to implement properly. But this is less a rule break and more an omission of a rule for the sake of the gameplay experience.

The rant you make after these points are either bad points, or points that stand against majority opinion.

Also, when did a game dev trying to align themselves with the emotions of their players become a bad thing?

Also Also, act 3 is fine. Maybe not as good as the previous 2 acts (which I don't completely agree with) but definitely not "Bad" by any standard. The people who was calling it bad was doing so out of bad faith before even playing through the act.

Also Also Also, The fact that Baldurs Gate appeals to non crpg players is a good thing. It may entice new people and therefore funding to give other crpg's a go. And besides, can you honestly name a crpg that gives you more bang for your buck than BG3 does when you take into account everything it offers including visuals, animated and voiced dialogue, content, polish, ect. ?

It seems to me that you're hating on BG3 simply to rebel against the public zeitgeist for the sake of other games that you hold particular emotional attachments to. It's alright to prefer other games, but you have to concede to the fact that you are an extreme minority in the opinions that you're stating.

[katzenkrimis]

Origineel geplaatst door Illusioneer:

I don't think the combat is really intended to compete with BG3.

It couldn't if it tried.

Owlcat's games are far more challenging than Larian's cheese-fest extravaganzas.

Anybody here that has played Wrath of the Righteous knows that. That's why so many people are liking their Baldur's Gate III experience. It's D&D easy-mode.

Entry-level.

The majority of gamers don't like difficult. They'll cry like babies and complain to the developer about the game being broken if they lose a single fight. There's already a thread in here complaining about there being too much writing.

It's not simple enough. There are too many words to read. I want Baldur's...

*Whaaaaahh...*