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One problem I see is that characters feel pretty "Samey" due to lack of weapon options and, I still haven't figured out how best to use certain class combat abilities efficiently. A lot of times it boils down to just shoot something.
Character development is simpler than Pathfinder because:
* there are far fewer "classes"
* progression within "classes" is more predefined, linear and has fewer options
But it may feel more difficult if, like me and I guess most folks, you have no previous experience of playing Rogue Trader on the table top and so have little idea what these "classes" are supposed to do or how they are best used.
Use of characters in combat, in terms of abilities and action economy etc, is more difficult to compare. Some things arguably make it simpler than Pathfinder, others more complex, and again the big issue is it's a totally new system that is very different to D&D, Pathfinder, DOS, PoE etc.
* There appears to be less skills, abilities, passives etc than in Pathfinder however......
* a lot of the abilities are in practice a lot more difficult to understand how to use properly.
Use of characters outside of combat, for skill checks etc, is pretty much exactly the same as Pathfinder.
First off we won't be taking 1-4 "dips" into other classes or playing around with feat and special rules to bypass requirements or exploit stacking mechanics. Or have a list of 20-30 classes which we can dip into.
You choose a starting class, progress with it, then pick a tier two class from a limited selection (2 right now) based on the chosen tier 1 class, progress with it, and maybe get 1-2 special feats based on starting class. Then maybe get a tier 3 class later and do the same(?). So again it will be easy and straight forward to progress. It's just a matter of knowing how you're going to specialize a specific character from the get go:
For example I plan to play a Leader/Inspirational Rogue Trader, so that means I really have one choice based off the classes right now: Leader --> Strategist for Tier 2 Class. Then prioritise buffing action economy and party wide defense/offense. Also I will try to build Cassia as a Leader/Strategist too (she starts as a leader), because her stats/abilities don't mesh with the alternative choice (Leader/Vanguard which is a tanky character combo).
She would be better as a secondary Leader/Strategist with alternative abilities that synergize with my PC leader. With her high willpower I would try to take advantage of that and use her mutant gaze attack ability which uses willpower as a main attack since her stats in normal weapons/martial stuff sucks.
I can even see now how beneficial it can be to have two Strategists taking advantage of eachother's Voices of Commands and "marked areas" for capture, and continuously giving free action points to your martial characters so they can do what they do best: kill stuff faster. It reminds me of turn-based/4x games like Age of Wonders Planetfall, playing factions with the ability to give free actions points or reset other unit abilities. Very powerful when used on powerful units in your stack/squad.
So just to summarize: Classes are easy to progress keeping in mind what you want to do with a character. Then based off their character stats/skills and their party role, you take one of two tier 2 class choices that best fits the stats and the team role.
As for combat mechanics they seem to be a lot easier to understand too. Pretty much just another variation of basic turn based combat mechanics with your usual flanking, attacks of opportunities, buffs/debuffs, line of sight, etc.
To get the most out of your party it seems like you want optimize action economy (kill stuff asap), generate temporary wounds (health) and stack party wide buffs that make each attack hit harder and each enemy attack hit for less. That's why i'm so interested in using two strategists so again other party members can attack + use special or defensive abilities in one turn, outpacing the enemy (hopefully).
After 60 hours or so I'd say the combat may be easy to understand in principle but an awful lot harder to make work in practice. There are several reasons for this:
1. Many abilities don't kick in until the next turn, for example the assassins mark. When the next turn comes around the use of an ability may no longer be relevant. For example assassins marks are not useful on dead enemies or enemies no longer in range/LoS.
2. Other abilities apply to other team members over a limited time period and come with significant caveats and restrictions. Examples are strategies. In practice it can be very difficult engineer successful use of strategies and the like.
3. Furthermore there are typically so many enemies against you that will move before your other team members get a chance to take advantage of things like strategies, either because they get blocked/engaged or because the enemy has now moved away from the designated areas or because enemy movement forces a change of plan.
4. Many abilities have very limited range and it can be difficult/unwise to keep team mates in range as battle circumstances change. Things like cover and dealing with enemies coming at you from several directions at once tend to make you split your team up.
5. It is very difficult to understand the actual practical effect a lot of the abilities have when used, on extra damage caused or avoided etc. This is partly because to long time delay between cause and effect and partly because the game does a poor job at the moment of showing this information. This makes it difficult to evaluate when and where to use these delayed effect abilities.
The big difference is that in Pathfinder when you cast a spell it will always have the desired effect immediately, across your team if a buff and across the enemies if a debuff. In RT this is frequently not so, there are actually a limited number of abilities that kick in with immediate observable results.
My experience is it takes a long time to figure out how to use these abilities effectively in practice. After 60 hours I'm still struggling. My impression is RT abilities are easier to understand in principle than Pathfinder spells etc but much harder to use in practice.
I can see what you're talking about with abilities. It's not just a buff everyone and go nuts combat. There's a lot of next turn/this turn rules followed by some cooldowns. Further complicated by many secondary effects you may want to pull off with abilities, but may be too hard to fit into the mix.
Voice of Command seems pretty important for those secondary effects and giving some abilities longer/infinite range, but it's limited by a 2 turn cooldown on the effected character.
I noticed the Vanguard's "Fight me!" (3 hex taunt on failed enemy willpower saves) could help a bit with enemy crowd control and keeping them in place(ish). Especially if you can exploit chokepoints and get a lot of enemies taunted (that's all based on area design though which seems quite open so far).
I also noticed "Fight Me!" says the enemy must attack "a vanguard." Do you know, or anyone else know, if that means having two-three vanguards will force enemies to randomly pick one of them to become a primary target? And that any descriptions with "a (insert class here)" descriptor basically means the subject doesn't have to be the user of the class ability, but can be any character of that class in the party? If that makes sense.
Anyways I will have to watch some more lets plays to get a better picture of the situation personally. :)
Voice of Command and Back into the fight is a great combo for healing.
The other problem is the special abilities (the ones you get to play with enough Momentum).
The ones Soldiers and Fighters get are absolutely fantastic. Both Heinrix and Argenta can murder enemies wholesale with their special and there's no messing about. Click the button, instantly murder enemies, simple.
All the other special abilities are really hard to use, hard to understand, hard to figure out what they did (if anything) and generally feel hardly worth the AP or the trouble. They all rely on something happening afterwards, later, someone else doing something etc. Whether they worked or not is mostly a mystery.
I'm thinking part of the problem here is these rules were obviously designed for table top play. In that situation:
a) Since most likely at least half the players and for sure the DM would already know how to use this stuff properly as a new player you're going to get a lot of help from them as you play.
b) You're most likely working with three other players and four characters - four heads instead of one to work out these complex moves.
c) On the table top folks are always all talking about the attack and damage calculations, arguing with the DM about bonuses/enemy debuffs they feel they should get etc, so it's probably a hell of lot easier to get the hang of exactly what effect all these complex abilities have.
Strikes me getting this stuff across in a video game setting is gonna be tricky.
I was just looking at Bring it Down and a few other leader abilities for build strategy purposes. So here's the abilities I was looking to combo as a semi standard thing every 3 turns, minding the fact i'm assuming you can use multiple abilities in one turn (big assumption). If not I would have to split some actions between two leaders which would be less effective for sure:
Use this first of course to eliminate range issue of other leader abilities. I'm only guessing the cell range is essentially hexes from other TB games. A Leader in the demo is gonna have 40-60 fellowship so this will buff all characteristics about 13-17 points of targeted ally.
So a free extra turn for ally, gains about 2-3 action points in the demo based on fellowship. Then will be getting 4-6 extra momentum. Once you get 80 fellowship you can give 4 AP to an ally.
Used for 4-6 movement points if the character that just got the Bring it Down ability needs the movement points and needs to not provoke AoO, since Bring it down only gives action points in the new turn. Or instead of Move Move Move:
If the target is already in place and needs status effect removal and/or healing, which is about 8-12 temporary wounds (which i'm guessing is hit points).
So the long story short is that after your prime martial character uses their turn, you hit them with Voice of Command, then Bring it Down, then Move Move Move (or Get Back in the Fight) on leaders turn for a total of 4AP use. Videos seem to show 4 AP per character turn as baseline.
That target character's bonuses for their new turn instead of leader attacking etc themselves with less accuracy, worse weapons etc:
- +13-17 Weapon/Balistics in addition to all other characteristics (maybe though, because Bring it On may cancel this bonus on the new extra turn).
- +2-3 Action Points, and 3-6 Momentum on each kill.
- +4-6 Movement Points and AoO immunity or status effect removal +8-12 temp wounds/health.
That's a big swing if it can be pulled off of course or even possible combat mechanics wise. You're basically trading the leader's turn for a supercharged puppet 33% of the time (2 turn cooldown on VoC). Then use your other more AoE abilities that don't need VoC on the 2 turn cooldown.
Two leaders would likely solve any combat mechanic issues of the above and also allow you to apply this strategy to two martial experts. There's another possibile strat too which is to use two leaders abilities on one another. Not sure if this would work since haven't put too much thought into it. Or whether it's just plain less effective than using on martials and other classes to buff their utility.
Sure you could bring another martial instead, but you lose out on all the buffs, the healing, the momentum charging and the ability to take another great combat turn before enemies get a chance to use their turns... in theory since i'm quite ignorant of how things actually work in-game lol :p
But they are also distinctly tier 2 abilities, they have nothing like the devastating impact of abilities from the groups:
* Strategies
* Study Enemies
* Assassins Mark
* Special abilities available to Leaders, Adepts, Strategists and Assassins
These are much more complicated and typically subject to a plethora of conditions, spacial limitations, range limitations, LoS limitations, time constraints, delayed effects and so on. When they work they are absolutely devastating. *IF* you can get them to work
Yeah from our discussion and the videos it definitely sounds and looks like a lot of annoying savescumming/trial&error for getting the most out of more complicated abilities. Or waiting for that "omg they're all together! My abilities are ready omg it happened!" moment lol. :D
Also good to know that by basic understanding is mostly on the mark for AP usage. I was afraid there would be more limitations on them that I wasn't seeing.
Let's face it, Grandmaster, you are intrigued now are you not?
absolutely ;) nah but for real i dont mind complexity, but rather in form of paradox strategy games. rpgs i just prefer straight baldurs gate / divinity 2 style