Denuvo

[TehOwn]

I bought Two Point Hospital after Denuvo was removed (great move, btw) but Campus still has it (with no end in sight) and now this?

I refuse to buy a game that has Denuvo with no time-limit and no guarantee of removal in future. I don't want to rent a game. I want to be able to play it 20 years from now, just like Theme Hospital, Sim Tower, Sim Golf, Rollercoaster Tycoon, Transport Tycoon, all the greats.

So, will you guys commit to a removal plan in future? One year? Two years?

Otherwise, I guess I'll just wait for it to be in a free giveaway.

[Pheace]

Originally posted by Level 60 Night Elf Priest:

Steam is inherently DRM, you are buying a license when you buy games and if you don't have an account with that license you cannot play, that is DRM in the most basic and simple form, otherwise you would just get the games completely no strings attached like GOG does.

You're buying a license to play on GOG all the same. The difference is that they can't take it from you if you lose access to your GOG account.

However, if you buy a game today on release day 1, and they pull the game from your account tomorrow or block your account, even if you downloaded it, good luck getting any further patches/updates for that game. You won't even be able to buy expansions/DLC since you don't 'own' the base game on GOG.

[70 IQ Bimbo]

Originally posted by Pheace:

Originally posted by Level 60 Night Elf Priest:

Steam is inherently DRM, you are buying a license when you buy games and if you don't have an account with that license you cannot play, that is DRM in the most basic and simple form, otherwise you would just get the games completely no strings attached like GOG does.

You're buying a license to play on GOG all the same. The difference is that they can't take it from you if you lose access to your GOG account.

However, if you buy a game today on release day 1, and they pull the game from your account tomorrow or block your account, even if you downloaded it, good luck getting any further patches/updates for that game. You won't even be able to buy expansions/DLC since you don't 'own' the base game on GOG.

I don't understand what you're arguing for, it sounds like you're agreeing with me.

1. You pay for a game on the GOG website
2. You are provided a file to download and install it
3. There are no checks to verify you really bought it
4. You can't ever lose access to the game ever again as long as you back up the setup file

You never have to do any authorization for the game(s) after you pay for them, is that not how GOG works?

[Pheace]

Originally posted by Level 60 Night Elf Priest:

Originally posted by Pheace:

You're buying a license to play on GOG all the same. The difference is that they can't take it from you if you lose access to your GOG account.

However, if you buy a game today on release day 1, and they pull the game from your account tomorrow or block your account, even if you downloaded it, good luck getting any further patches/updates for that game. You won't even be able to buy expansions/DLC since you don't 'own' the base game on GOG.

I don't understand what you're arguing for, it sounds like you're agreeing with me.

1. You pay for a game on the GOG website
2. You are provided a file to download and install it
3. There are no checks to verify you really bought it
4. You can't ever lose access to the game ever again as long as you back up the setup file

You never have to do any authorization for the game(s) after you pay for them, is that not how GOG works?

I'm arguing the no strings attached. Your updates are linked to your account for instance. Used to be you just went to a website (in the long long ago), and downloaded the latest update, no strings attached. Here, no ownership, no updates. No ownership, no Galaxy multiplayer. No ownership, no Expansion/DLC sales for you.

I agree they can't take your purchase from you after you buy it. But if linked account is lost in some way I wouldn't feel I got my money's worth with just the download as part of the value is still in the account imo. (this changes for games that are never going to get another update I guess).

It's better than Steam (for the games that aren't DRM-Free on it), but it's still worse than it used to be.

[Jaggid Edje]

Originally posted by Level 60 Night Elf Priest:

Steam is inherently DRM, you are buying a license when you buy games and if you don't have an account with that license you cannot play, that is DRM in the most basic and simple form, otherwise you would just get the games completely no strings attached like GOG does.

I'm sure you are positive that you're speaking correctly, but you are wrong. That link I provided lists the games that do not have the Steam DRM package in the code. Those games can all be played without the Steam client once you purchase them.

Steam is absolutely not inherently DRM. Most studios and publishers choose to enable that feature of Steam, but not all of them do. And for the ones that do not, the Steam client is not needed.

I even provided a link to a list of games for which that is the case. Anyone who owns one of them can easily verify the accuracy of what I'm saying. The link also includes information before the list with the specifics of what I'm saying.

[Supahz]

I always love seeing the thread with the relative handful of Denuvo whiners. Good for you, I guess... you guys get to have your little club echo chamber session. But if a significant number of people cared and complained... i.e. enough to actually matter... then devs would probably consider Denuvo differently. But that's not the case. You all might as well be Abe Simpson yelling at a cloud... years and years and years later, and still yelling at the cloud.

[Jaggid Edje]

Originally posted by Supahz:

I always love seeing the thread with the relative handful of Denuvo whiners. Good for you, I guess... you guys get to have your little club echo chamber session. But if a significant number of people cared and complained... i.e. enough to actually matter... then devs would probably consider Denuvo differently. But that's not the case. You all might as well be Abe Simpson yelling at a cloud... years and years and years later, and still yelling at the cloud.

You have the right of it. There's not enough of them to matter and, despite their claims, they are actually wrong about Denuvo not working to counter piracy. Compared to most other DRM packages, Denuvo is a lot harder to crack.

I don't know if it is still the case, but some years ago, there was (literally) only a single cracker doing it. Either way, there are games protected by Denuvo that have not been cracked yet which have been out for many, many years. So it absolutely is effective.

The only thing open for debate is whether DRM actually makes a difference in terms of profitability. That's debatable and there is research that indicates not-so-much. Not just because of the obvious matter of pirates don't necessarily represent people that will even buy the title if it is not cracked, but also because many people who pirate end up making a legitimate purchase if they like the game (i.e. piracy can actually lead to sales).

What's not debatable is whether DRM has an effect on Piracy. It does, particularly in the case of Denuvo.

[Supahz]

Originally posted by Volker:

Originally posted by H.P. Lovecraft:

Denuvo is a cancer. No thanks.

That´s nonsens. Game runs smooth and fine and wihtout any problems. Like all other games with Denuvo I have. It´s the developers right to protect their "work for living". If you don´t buy, who cares?

Exactly. The Denuvo Whiners live in an echo chamber. They'll never leave it. Funny thing is, the vast majority of people aren't them and don't care at all. But they think that the predictable statement of "no buy for me" on every single game, posted in a Steam forum, is going to achieve something, It's just the same circle jerk of people clapping each other on the back. Hilarious.

[lukaself]

Originally posted by Supahz:

Originally posted by Volker:

That´s nonsens. Game runs smooth and fine and wihtout any problems. Like all other games with Denuvo I have. It´s the developers right to protect their "work for living". If you don´t buy, who cares?

Exactly. The Denuvo Whiners live in an echo chamber. They'll never leave it. Funny thing is, the vast majority of people aren't them and don't care at all. But they think that the predictable statement of "no buy for me" on every single game, posted in a Steam forum, is going to achieve something, It's just the same circle jerk of people clapping each other on the back. Hilarious.

Funny how you accuse others of being in an echo chamber, only to argue that going along with the majority is the right thing to do in the same breath. But I doubt the irony will register with you.

Sarcasm aside, change has always been brought by very engaged minorities. You don't need a majority of people to move people on a topic. It's not about size, it's all about engagement and getting as close as possible to those 3,5% as that's all it takes to change the world.[www.bbc.com]

[70 IQ Bimbo]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/2456740?emclan=103582791474662088&emgid=512953841353752633

Thought this was relevant for the people that say no one cares about Denuvo

[Valar Morghulis]

Would consider without Denuvo drm

Denuvo is known to cause performance issues and comes with free security issues. Why of All the drm, which is unwanted anyways, did it have to be this one?

Such a shame.

[Pheace]

Originally posted by Daedalus007:

Two Point Hospital sold 1.49+ MILLION copies with an all-time peak concurrent players of 34k+ while Two Point Campus sold around 154k+ copies with a concurrent players peak of less than 8k. Hope the Denuvo malware was worth it! :P

While this won't be true for everyone, especially young'uns, Two Point Hospital wasn't just a good game, it was finally a worthy successor to the game Theme Hospital which people had wanted for a long long time already. You'll see the references over and over everywhere in the news related to this game.

Not saying this automatically makes up the difference but don't underestimate what a phenomenon it was either.

[lukaself]

Originally posted by 70 IQ Bimbo:

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/2456740?emclan=103582791474662088&emgid=512953841353752633

Thought this was relevant for the people that say no one cares about Denuvo

You provide a great, albeit isolated, example. The people who say that are either trolling or do not keep up with industry news. They'll deny that the industry is undergoing a major shift in how consumers accept to be treated despite overwhelming evidence from the consumer side but also, from the industry side trying to capitalize on the massive surge of goodwill from giving up on hostile practices:

Following 24 hours of Denuvo-based backlash, Inzoi is taking a surprising step and removing it entirely: 'We want to sincerely apologise for not aligning more closely with player expectations'

Gamers Now Canceling Kingdom Come: Deliverance 2 Pre-orders Due To Denuvo[tech4gamers.com]
And then a week later:
Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 dev says that Denuvo is a hard no[www.pcgamesn.com]

https://steamcommunity.com/games/1721060/announcements/detail/534345939582714004?snr=2___
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27UUF07Gr1Y

Dragon Age: The Veilguard ditches controversial Denuvo DRM because "we trust you"[www.gamesradar.com]
Warhammer 40k Space Marine 2 rejects Denuvo and DRM with a simple “no”[www.pcgamesn.com]
Amid the ongoing Denuvo DRM controversy, Starbreeze Studio has just revealed that Payday 3 will no longer release with the anti-tampering software.[www.pcgamesn.com]

The myth that "no one cares about Denuvo" is being dismantled not just by vocal communities but by actual changes from developers and publishers reacting to the backlash. These examples aren't just isolated incidents - they're part of a visible pattern of companies trying to win back trust and goodwill by removing or rejecting Denuvo, often very publicly.

[Daedalus007]

I've done this song and dance on many[archive.is] other[pcinvasion.com] threads[archive.vn] so rather than repost it all, I will instead just link to them in this post. Denuvo is very much anti-consumer and anti-gamer[whyisdenuvobad.github.io]. Denuvo is NOT for our benefit but for the benefit of already-greedy publishers and studios that feel that hindering the enjoyment of something legally purchased from them is somehow ok. As a thought experiment, think about if games DRM was applied to other stuff (sometimes it has) such as printers[www.theverge.com] or paper[www.eff.org] or coffee machines[www.theverge.com] or even automobiles[www.thedrive.com]. How horrible is that to deal with? It just plain sucks! I don't know about any of you but I'm not the type to support any of that. Now think if those practices didn't apply to just a few manufacturers but EVERY manufacturer of the type of thing you wanted. EVERY coffee machine that uses pods would use DRM, etc etc. You could make coffee the 'old fashioned way' in your grandpa's coffee maker or over the stove every time if you really hated them but that still sucks.

Most importantly for me specifically, the presence of Denuvo explicitly denies anyone on Linux-derived operating systems from ever playing the game now or in the future (in lieu of any kind of bypass or DRM-free re-release later) as well as severely hindering game preservation. Go look at the articles on GoG[www.gog.com] about how time-consuming it was for their technicians to crack the DRM on older games with StarForce/SecuROM and other DRMs.

What gets me is how many corporate bootlicking sycophants continue to shill for corporations. I honestly believe it isn't even 'trolls' doing it but actual paid PR-spinners (similar to China's '50 cent army' which unfortunately has nothing to do with a certain rapper).

[Frission]

Another Denuvo Fail

Once again a game I had hype for and was ready to buy on release immediately turned me and my money away by including this denuvo ♥♥♥♥. I will never let that garbage touch my pc. Prime example of a DRM that actively turns away paying customers.

[Kessra]

All fine and dandy, but there was already a rather large thread on this topic. Your rant therefore doesn't add much to the discussion there was already, I fear.

I also don't think it was the devs wish to include that but more of a requirement by SEGA or someone other responsible for overseeing the project. In future, it may or may not get removed. Future will have to tell.