Don't Insult Me with Female Space Marines. **clickbait title** Its a discussion.

[[Archduke] Scorch-Lord Skrall]

The discussions about gender roles in Space Marines is really strange and weird. Watching people argue about it is like seeing slightly racist grandma screaming at a very angry 14 year old with pink hair about the appropriate types of dress for I dunno... GI Joe Barbie. These debates feel trivial, but they also tap into deeper issues of representation, lore integrity, and the toxic aspects of fandom.

Honestly, enjoy the game. No one is forcing you to buy it. No one is forcing you to play it. Does it have gendered representation? No. Its heavily skewed toward male audiences, both in terms of player demographics and the fiction itself. This makes the discussions about gender representation in 40K complicated, as the game is undeniably masculine. Is that bad? Yes, and no.

For decades, the game has catered to a primarily male audience, and the universe reflects this with its hypermasculine factions, particularly the Space Marines and the Adeptus Custodes. These factions embody military male machismo, aggression, and a glorification of war and sacrifice, and is packed with traditional male power fantasies.

This male focus isn’t necessarily wrong, considering the target audience. Warhammer 40K is a niche game, and it has long served as a form of guilty pleasure and escapism for those who revel in dark, brutal fantasy.

Should there be female representation? Yes. But also think of the scenario. Would it be appropriate for there to thousands of female soldiers storming the beaches of Normandy during WW2? No. There was one brave woman on that beach, Martha Gellhorn, a journalist. She snuck onto a hospital ship and managed to get onto the beach with the medical crew.

Very few measures would say it would have been good for a WW2 game to have thousands of female soldiers storming the beach, because it did not happen. Similarly, for the space marines, and lets include the Custodes here as well. They are entirely a male-dominated segment of fiction.

But the lack of female representation isn’t just about accuracy to the lore. Games evolve, as do their audiences, and the desire for more inclusive representation in Warhammer 40K is valid. At the same time, we must recognize that changing the core elements of a male-dominated game world without care is alienating long-time fans and undermine the universe's internal logic.

Yes, there should be better female representation. You want more girls on the scene? Have more girls in the fiction. You want more girls in STEM, celebrate the female scientists of history. But don't do things like say "There were always female custodes" or "Lets make new female space marines" and sweep the lore, and all the attendant toxicity and patriarchy under the rug.

Why not? Because that would be ignoring the facts. Let me be clear, the Imperium at large is toxic, fascist, unjust, unfair, unmitigatedly horrible, and unapologetically patriarchal., There are very very few redeeming factors for the Imperium, and the ones that are, are treated as aberrations and outliers of the norm.

It’s a reflection of the worst aspects of humanity, exaggerated and magnified a thousand times to the point of horror. This is a post-apocalyptic society that has dehumanized its males, it would have at minimum equally dehumanized its females. That fits the depressing horror of WH40k's grimdark. This is a regime that would absolutely have relegated females to a secondary status.

The Space Marines embody this toxic masculinity. They are tools of a regime that treats humanity as expendable and views war as an eternal necessity. Humanity at large are considered little more than cattle by those in charge. It is the fever-dream of men. It is a guilty pleasure as they essentially celebrate mass death, heroic sacrifice, war, and carnage.

Yet is also anti-war, a scathing satire of politics, WW1 and 2, of the Cold War. It deliberately critiques systems of oppression: British imperialism, Soviet disregard for life, American exceptionalism, manifest destiny, and the glorification of militarism and war across multiple cultures. This is key to the universe’s identity.

Introducing female Space Marines without addressing the patriarchal and fascist systems would be a disservice to this critique. The Imperium wouldn’t suddenly embrace gender equality. If anything, it would treat women just as it treats men: as dehumanized cogs in a brutal war machine. But in today's PR and SJW wary corporate overlords, this is a tough stance to take.

If the few redeeming figures in the Imperium are anomalies, often crushed by the very system they live in, and the grimdark nature of the lore is essential, then changing that to accommodate surface-level inclusivity would sweep the toxic nature of the Imperium under the rug

The largest factions of females are religious zealots, because that is one of the way "females" fit into this world view. They have to be brainwashed and thoroughly indoctrinated, just as the men are.

What is the next prominent group of women? The Sisters of SILENCE. One might argue that this faction, literally voiceless, represent a problematic vision of how women should be in the 40K universe, which reinforces the idea that the Imperium is sexist and oppressive by design.

These women are powerful, but even they are products of the Imperium’s brutal ideology, bound by religious zealotry and fanaticism. Just like men, they are tools of the Imperium, fodder for battle, sacrificed at the alter of survival of the fittest.

Should there be more/better female representation? Yes. But not in Space Marine 2 as Space Marines. Adeptus Sororitas perhaps, for now, though implementing all those models and animations is probably too big an investment to do for very little return unless they are doing a Sororitas game.

No. If they want female space marines, they CANNOT handwave it. They CANNOT change the lore to suddenly introduce Female Space Wolves, though ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I would buy that set.

Instead of retconning female Space Marines into the existing factions, a better, lore-consistent solution would be to introduce one of the two Lost Legions as female Space Marines. The Lost Legions are an established mystery in 40K lore. Two entire Legions and Primarchs that were erased from Imperial records.

These Lost Legions could have been female from the start, and their erasure from history could be tied to the Imperium’s patriarchal oppression. Perhaps these female Space Marines protested the genocidal and fascist actions of the Imperium during the Great Crusade and were wiped from the record as a result. Wiped. There are implications here as well as to how they were wiped.

The idea of introducing female Space Marines isn’t just about adding representation, it’s about reinforcing the grimdark nature of the setting. By reintroducing one of the Lost Legions as female, we maintain the internal logic of Warhammer 40K.

Female Space Marines weren’t erased because they didn’t exist, but true to its fascist, patriarchal structure, they were erased from history because they defied the Imperium’s genocidal tendencies.

This approach answers the call for better female representation without forcing a retcon that feels artificial or out of place. This solution deepens the story, and not only respects the existing lore but enhances it, adding depth to the Imperium’s brutality and systemic flaws, and strengthens the critique of the Imperium’s toxic structure. It offers a way to explore the Imperium’s flaws in more detail while opening the door for new stories, models, and fresh perspectives.

I want Female Space Marines, but don't handwave them in.

I want them to exist in a way that respects the world they’re in, not as a quick fix. Without addressing the deeply ingrained toxicity of the universe would undermine the rich, dark satire that makes the setting compelling.

[The_Dipl0mat]

LevelEndBaddie の投稿を引用：

The_Dipl0mat の投稿を引用：

Because they didn't aid in the defense. That's why the Vox Operator was promoted, for warning the other Custodians. Because who knows, maybe an arch enemy is impersonating a Custodian and managed to spoof all the credentials.

poorly written and full of plot holes.

So then the average for Warhammer?
Seems a bit less plot hole-y than usual though. Had a Custodian board a ship under the guise of being a Custodian because well, she is. And then saw how much it'd take for the orbital defense to nuke the Emperor, thus deeming them a potential to actually do it. The vox operator being the only one to not go with it and warn the Custodes in advance shows they were willing to not actually go through with it

[[RUSSIAN]_我不知道它在这]

Среди космодесанта есть женщины, но они идентифицируют себя мужчинами. Поэтому любое высказывание, что среди космодесанта нет женщин является оскорблением.

[AdAstraWill]

Brainbane の投稿を引用：

AdAstraWill の投稿を引用：

It's forced exclusion. Diversity is normal.
The only thing that used to matter was diversity of thought, now diversity of thought is repugnant and diversity of physical attributes is dominant, thereby reducing the meaning and substance of anything and everything that exists in that space for the sake of "diversity" - Diversity is normal, but not the diversity of the modern (current) day. Modern day (current day) diversity is pure politics and any diversity that occurs as a result of "making them female" in an all male faction or space would be just as stupid as "making them male" if it was an all female faction or space. You cannot claim it is forced exclusion when the entire premise of entering a space where it is male only is automatically forced inclusion in a male only space. You avoid the the original argument to reverse it and present your own without even acknowledging it as valid. Which in context is blatant sexism against men and boys. why should anyone listen to you?

It's not a house. It's a hobby
Its not a house true, but a hobby that has been a hobby for a specific demographic for decades, becomes like a home. A place where they can get away from the frustrations of the modern day and just relax in a place where they get to live out their fantasy, in a place where the real world frustrations of the world do not follow them (clearly a shrinking prospect at this rate). There is nobody serious in this community, who wants to put men as sisters of battle or sisters of silence, in fact most of us wished that they would get more love and lore, because they're unique. By putting female space marines (and even Custodes though they've done that now) into that space, you dilute that uniqueness. More over its insulting to already existing fans of the sisters of battle and sisters of silence because the Sisters of Silence were made to compliment and be the partners of the Custodians as their female counter-part, and the Sisters of battle were mean't to compliment the space marines as their female counter-part. So instead of uplifting those factions, you dilute them and reduce them. How do you not see the damage you do?

How does a woman space marine/custodian/primarily change the tabletop?
It doesn't change the table top in a game sense, it changes the table top in an immersion sense, most people do kit-bash and create crazy things but they usually create lore accurate armies to immerse themselves in which is an enormous draw for many, modern politics damages that immersion and lets be clear about one thing, when you see who has the biggest shares in Games-workshop, it is evident who exactly is pulling the strings for that politics and given their policies for agreeing to invest, it is absolutely a political decision. The entire push is completely forced and desired by people who either do not play the table-top or activists within the table-top who want the universe to reflect how they want it to be rather than accepting it for what it is. The change and addition of this kind to the lore, so far into the universes existence after decades of established lore, will never be forgotten and it will immersion break even after becoming official because its origins will already be widely known (and the fact it barely makes sense to begin with). The other side of it is simply that, they chose to do this with custodians and will try it with space marines eventually because those models sell the most, if they didnt sell the most and sisters of battle did, they wouldn't bother. Politics and economics. Thats it. it has no purpose outside of that and its pathetic.

How is the presence of a woman disrespectful?
The presence of Women in general is not disrespectful, they populate an enormous chunk of the lore, in fact one of the most badass captains of a ship in the 40k Universe is Lotara Sarrin, Captain of the World Eaters Flagship during the heresy and the only normal human to earn Angrons full respect. Then there is Saint-Celestine, arguably one of the most powerful characters in the Imperium. I could go on, there are plenty. So this argument is foolish. We have never had an issue with women being in 40k. It is not about women being there at all and its disingenuous to suggest otherwise. It is disrespectful to force your way into an already well established section of a franchise and fictional universe and demand changes just to suit the few over the many just so you can say "look women can do this too" which then again, dilutes men having something that is their thing and enjoying a space where its about them instead of having to share all the time. I don't know how old you are but most men and women know the men and women need space from each other to coexist with the least conflict without social issues cropping up. This includes in hobbies. Do you think women want men everywhere? Don't make me laugh.

How do you not see how weird your world view is?

Its like throwing a tantrum because kids who already are in the sandbox playing with their toys and the sandbox is full won't let you play with them and their toys and when you don't understand them or disagree with them you demonise them or otherwise imply said demonization.

This entire argument for pushing this nonsense is both absurd and infantile and has absolutely nothing to do with anything that would benefit the lore, the game, the story, none of it. It is purely external nonsense worming its way into the foundation of a long standing fictional universe and a space that is treasured by many for staying the way it is.

First, read the way you write. "We" this and "we" that. Are you in a cult by any chance? Is 40k a cult? No. Whatever cult you're in, it is not part of 40k.

The only people who argue for "diversity of thought" are the sort of people who want that "diversity" to be everyone agreeing that white people are the best, capitalism is awesome, women need to stay in the kitchen and being gay is immoral. Oh, and that "everyone" is just a cult of straight white men. There is no diversity. It's the usual right wing lie.

If you find the existence of women and dark skinned people stressful, that's a you problem and shows how privileged your life must be that the mere existence of other people can trigger you.

Diversity isn't political. Women exist. Dark skinned people exist. Just because you've been brainwashed to embrace white supremacy doesn't mean it's a true fact. You have to let it go, because otherwise you're going to spend your entire life with a head full of mush.

Case in point, you and people like you keep pointing to completely subjective points of reference as if they are fact. "Immersion" is an utterly irrelevant argument. Women are more likely to be space marines than moat people like you are, mate. Women are more likely to be space marines than there is likely to be a realm called the warp that we use to traverse space and that contains chaos, etc.

I' going to bet that you didn't even know who Lotara Sarrin was until other people put the name on your lips.

You have to grow up. Give it a shot. What you're clinging onto is a nonsense world view.

As for age, if you're telling me you're an adult then with all due respect that is pathetic. To reach adulthood and get upset because girls might play the same game as you is literally what young boys get upset about. You have to be better. Be an actual adult. Embrace a rational world view.

Anyway, we've written a lot of words and I' going back to the game. Ultimately, there doesn't need to be a justification for there to be women or dark skinned space marines. Just racists and sexists making terrible excuses as to why there shouldn't be. it's really a decision for GW to make. We'll see what time brings. I hope you get better, I really do. I'm sure behind that brainwashing there's a very cool dude.

I read your first words, and your last words.

Together they form the quotation marks which summarise your intellect and personality;

"I dont understand why I am an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, so I will continue to be an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and thus subsequently dismiss, deflect, ignore and feign ignorance of anything and everything that hurts my sensibilities and somehow manage to proclaim moral superiority over someone actually trying to be sensible and reasonable with me, oh and if they claim their argument is reasonable, I will just attack their mental health"

Well my friend, that is a game that more than one can play. The level of projection you have spewed into this conversation is so staggering that I might just about worry for your health.

Alls I see from your response realistically is weakness. Weakness and spite. There is nothing interesting nor useful about you, nothing purposeful nor helpful, your continued existence is only fuelled by your own self loathing and pity and the arrogant assumption that no matter what, you are right and better than everyone you disagree with no matter the topic, and you will remain this way until you stop taking it out on others. But you will never do that. I have encountered people like you far too many times now in my yes, adult life, which is saddening, it is unfortunate because underneath that disgusting display of vitriol, is a human being who should of been loved at the right time and wasn't, who should have friends but doesn't, who should of been cared for and wasn't, instead you just had people who used you and spit you out over and over again and now you are here, spiting their venom. You let them win.

When you learn to be better. Drop me a message. Everyone can use a friend, even you.