Black Ultramarines break established lore

[Tibi]

Here's why:
-Space Marines get their DNA rewritten at a young age. This has to be done because the extra organs they’re implanted with carry the DNA of their Primarch. So in order to prevent organ rejection, the aspirant’s entire DNA has to be rewritten to match their Primarch’s. This causes most marines to develop facial, and physical features similar to their gene father. And since their Primarch Girlyman was a blond white dude, most Ultramarines should look like a blonde white dude.
-Space Marine biology automatically changes their skin color to adapt to their environment. One of the organs they’re implanted with can quickly change the melanin content of their skin. So if they’re in an environment where the sun doesn’t shine harshly, the melanin content is removed from their skin to increase their vitamin D production. But if they’re in a radiation dense environment, their skin is pumped full of melanin to give them some protection. So while it IS possible for an Ultramarine to be black in a sunny environment, it does break the lore when they stand next to a battle brother who remained white.

But yeah… I guess diversity points are more important than decades of lore. At least there are no female marines YET… The Custodes sacrificed themselves to protect us from those chaos spawns. May we never forget their sacrifice.

[Thrasymachus]

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

Първоначално публикувано от Thrasymachus:

Are you also pissed that the Dark Angels are space knights now instead of space Native Americans?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know anything about Dark Angels.

Shows how little you know.

The Dark Angels were originally portrayed as Native Americans. not as Arthurian knights. Games Workshop changed that. If you want the "established lore" to be respected then you should want the Dark Angles to be portrayed as they were originally portrayed. You know, that pesky logical consistency.

[Tibi]

Първоначално публикувано от Moonlight Knight:

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

None of that contradicts what I said.

It does, though. Because the three chapters that are the most like their primarchs in this regard either have a skin mutation or are all recruited from the same place.

Hell, the Blood Angels are all recruited from Baal, and the White Scars only recruit from Mundus Planus, so this argument goes further.

There's no actual evidence that the geneseed implantation changes skin color.

Again, skin color is determined by DNA. DNA is rewritten by gene seed. Even if that wasn't true, the melanochrome organ would make sure all of them have the same skin color in the same environments.

[Thrasymachus]

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

Първоначално публикувано от Moonlight Knight:

That would seem to indicate to me that that the Space Marine creation process would have been known to whoever made said cover. Newer things are not less canon just because you don't like them.

Primarchs who were more heavily mutated tended to leave stronger impacts on the geneseed of their genesons. Yes, the Blood Angels didn't become winged, but no other chapter is noted for having its geneseed make their Space Marines more handsome.

If two lore fragments contradict each other, then the one that makes more sense wins out. That's how it always worked. And all ultramarines being white because their DNA has to be rewritten makes more sense than "u racist if you don't like black marine". Sorry.

So how do you reconcile a Luna Wolf with ebony skin? Did that not occur?

[Tibi]

Първоначално публикувано от Thrasymachus:

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know anything about Dark Angels.

Shows how little you know.

The Dark Angels were originally portrayed as Native Americans. not as Arthurian knights. Games Workshop changed that. If you want the "established lore" to be respected then you should want the Dark Angles to be portrayed as they were originally portrayed. You know, that pesky logical consistency.

You can't expect me to keep track of lore from chapters that don't interest me. You're using the argument from authority fallacy.

[Tibi]

Първоначално публикувано от Thrasymachus:

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

If two lore fragments contradict each other, then the one that makes more sense wins out. That's how it always worked. And all ultramarines being white because their DNA has to be rewritten makes more sense than "u racist if you don't like black marine". Sorry.

So how do you reconcile a Luna Wolf with ebony skin? Did that not occur?

If it makes no sense, it didn't happen. It's that simple.

[Thrasymachus]

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

Първоначално публикувано от Thrasymachus:

Shows how little you know.

The Dark Angels were originally portrayed as Native Americans. not as Arthurian knights. Games Workshop changed that. If you want the "established lore" to be respected then you should want the Dark Angles to be portrayed as they were originally portrayed. You know, that pesky logical consistency.

You can't expect me to keep track of lore from chapters that don't interest me. You're using the argument from authority fallacy.

There is no fallacy here, you are citing established lore as your standard, but are then dismissing examples that show where you are ignorant of the lore and how it has evolved.

The authority fallacy refers to stating something is true because someone in authority has said so. Where have I done that? I gave you an example that challenges your premise. If you don't like that then maybe your premise sucks.

[Thrasymachus]

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

Първоначално публикувано от Thrasymachus:

So how do you reconcile a Luna Wolf with ebony skin? Did that not occur?

If it makes no sense, it didn't happen. It's that simple.

From The Solar War:

The second figure stepped into Abaddon’s blurred sight. This one wore the same grey-white armour as the first and held a comb-topped helm under his left arm. Abaddon’s eye caught the sign of a crescent moon marked on the helm above the right eye. The man’s skin was the black of polished cinder-wood. A close-cropped mohawk of hair ran across his scalp. Wide, silver-grey eyes glittered above a smile. ‘That’s right, isn’t it? You will look upon us and not say a word, even if we reach into you with knives and cut out your soul.’

[Moonlight Knight]

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

Първоначално публикувано от Moonlight Knight:

That would seem to indicate to me that that the Space Marine creation process would have been known to whoever made said cover. Newer things are not less canon just because you don't like them.

Primarchs who were more heavily mutated tended to leave stronger impacts on the geneseed of their genesons. Yes, the Blood Angels didn't become winged, but no other chapter is noted for having its geneseed make their Space Marines more handsome.

If two lore fragments contradict each other, then the one that makes more sense wins out. That's how it always worked. And all ultramarines being white because their DNA has to be rewritten makes more sense than "u racist if you don't like black marine". Sorry.

Okay, so why does Astorath the Grim have black hair? Why is Hastur Sejanus (a pre-Heresy Luna Wolf) noted as having skin the color of cinderwood? On the topic of the Luna Wolves, why is Horus Aximand noted as being weird for the fact he looks like a short genetic copy of Horus Lupercal if it's normal for Space Marines to mutate into a genetic copy of their Primarch?

[zmanbuilder]

Първоначално публикувано от Moonlight Knight:

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

Salamanders originate from a planet that has extreme volcanic activity. This damaged their melanin controlling organ, which causes it to go on a permanent overdrive, regardless of the environment, giving them an unnaturally dark, charcoal black skin. I don't know much about the Raven Guard tho. All I know is Corvus Corax had Ivory skin, so it makes sense that it would be passed down by his gene seed.

No, the Salamanders had a melanochrome mutation to begin with. The problem with their Melanochrome organ is that it doesn't "turn off," so individual members would get darker and darker and never become their natural skin-tone again... Or they would if their home planet wasn't high-radiation, which is why they're all legit obsidian-black.

The Raven Guard has the opposite mutation. They're all literally inhumanly white because their Melanochrome organ just doesn't give any outward indication of doing its job.

There IS a chapter of all pasty-white-skinned space marines who don't have a Melanochrome dysfunction... But that's because they were all recruited from a night world with no daylight to speak of. The chapter, or rather legion, is called the Night Lords.

With ravenguard The melanchrome organ does not work, so they have little to no radiation resistance, Though the ravenguard gene seed has a lot of other issues like them going berserk over time. Why? Ask alpha legion.

[Tibi]

Първоначално публикувано от Thrasymachus:

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

You can't expect me to keep track of lore from chapters that don't interest me. You're using the argument from authority fallacy.

There is no fallacy here, you are citing established lore as your standard, but are then dismissing examples that show where you are ignorant of the lore and how it has evolved.

The authority fallacy refers to stating something is true because someone in authority has said so. Where have I done that? I gave you an example that challenges your premise. If you don't like that then maybe your premise sucks.

You literally said I don't know anything because I don't know somethign very specific about one chapter. You tried to establish that you're a better fan than me because of this, therefore what you say is true, and what I say is fals. That is arguing from authortity.

[Tibi]

Първоначално публикувано от Thrasymachus:

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

If it makes no sense, it didn't happen. It's that simple.

From The Solar War:

The second figure stepped into Abaddon’s blurred sight. This one wore the same grey-white armour as the first and held a comb-topped helm under his left arm. Abaddon’s eye caught the sign of a crescent moon marked on the helm above the right eye. The man’s skin was the black of polished cinder-wood. A close-cropped mohawk of hair ran across his scalp. Wide, silver-grey eyes glittered above a smile. ‘That’s right, isn’t it? You will look upon us and not say a word, even if we reach into you with knives and cut out your soul.’

GW writers being GW writers, don't communicate with each other. ♥♥♥♥ like this does happen, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have any standard of canon, and everything is possible.

[Tibi]

Първоначално публикувано от Moonlight Knight:

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

If two lore fragments contradict each other, then the one that makes more sense wins out. That's how it always worked. And all ultramarines being white because their DNA has to be rewritten makes more sense than "u racist if you don't like black marine". Sorry.

Okay, so why does Astorath the Grim have black hair? Why is Hastur Sejanus (a pre-Heresy Luna Wolf) noted as having skin the color of cinderwood? On the topic of the Luna Wolves, why is Horus Aximand noted as being weird for the fact he looks like a short genetic copy of Horus Lupercal if it's normal for Space Marines to mutate into a genetic copy of their Primarch?

Already adressed in previous comments.

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

Първоначално публикувано от darth.crevette:

More like, two days ago. Actually, there's probably on of these posts made every other day.

I also love how the mere existence of Horus Aximand undermines their entire argument.

In the book Horus Rising, Loken specifically stated that every one of his battle broters has a similarity to Horus, to the point where most regular humans had a trouble telling them apart from each other. Little Horus was special because even the Space Marines couldn't tell him apart from Horus if it wasn't for the height difference.

[Moonlight Knight]

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

GW writers being GW writers, don't communicate with each other. ♥♥♥♥ like this does happen, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have any standard of canon, and everything is possible.

Why do you think that what you think should be canon should be set as the standard? And why do you think, in spite of the dearth of evidence, that "there are no black Ultramarines" should be canon?

[Plastikloser]

There are many worlds in the segmentum solar that ulrat marines pull from. It represents all of human ethnicities as most worlds do, given it has different climates and humans adapt accordingly. So you will see ALL types of humans as space marines. Which is true of many chapters, there are also dark skinned space wolves from the warmer island parts of Fenris (in the codex)

In addition, only certain primarchs passed on specific generic traits like appearance to their chapter. Sanguinus passed on his good looks (though not exact copy), Corax passes on pale skin, Vulcan passes on dark skin. It doesnt mean They change ethnicity, thats not how genetics work even in fiction.

Im doing this to help show others, not the clown.

[Moonlight Knight]

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

Първоначално публикувано от Moonlight Knight:

Okay, so why does Astorath the Grim have black hair? Why is Hastur Sejanus (a pre-Heresy Luna Wolf) noted as having skin the color of cinderwood? On the topic of the Luna Wolves, why is Horus Aximand noted as being weird for the fact he looks like a short genetic copy of Horus Lupercal if it's normal for Space Marines to mutate into a genetic copy of their Primarch?

Already adressed in previous comments.

Първоначално публикувано от Tibi:

In the book Horus Rising, Loken specifically stated that every one of his battle broters has a similarity to Horus, to the point where most regular humans had a trouble telling them apart from each other. Little Horus was special because even the Space Marines couldn't tell him apart from Horus if it wasn't for the height difference.

And it was still noteworthy enough to be made mention of, which means that it isn't common.