Your thoughts on the block weapons?

[Mohrrunkel]

Quick disclaimer: This is not supposed to be another fencing rant. Please keep their mentions to a necessary minimum (e.g. in an objective comparison). Thank you.


So I've been playing around with them for a bit. They seem.... underwhelming?

To explain myself a bit, I first need to talk about gaining stacks. You gain them by perfect parrying blocking. So gameplaywise there is no difference between the different weapon types, you get rewarded for literally the same action. So good so far. That the foes combo doesn't get interrupted is both a curse and a blessing. You want them to go on to gain max stacks. On the other hand it means you stay on the defensive.

And here's where the problems I have with this weapon start. Killing quickly is an important part of the gameplay, this weapon slows it down. The damage buff on 1 or 2 stacks is almost negligible. To gain anything from the new mechanic, gaining 3 stacks is imperative. But Ihave little control over how fast you can gain them. All kinds of attack spend them instantly, so should I wait for the enemies to attack me again? Or is that slower than just attacking without 3 stacks? In most cases the latter is the better option. When I decide to be patient the foes just seem to have a sixth sense and delay forever.

So I have the impression that I'm collecting stacks for something that rarely gets the big damage off and feels like I have to get out of my way to force it, which slows me down massively. Compare that to the other weapon types. Quick instant reward (Gunstrike) and Minoris die on the spot and get you armor. The interruption of combos lets you attack back or do something else. As of right now I see blocking weapons as inferior, although the changes are a step in the right direction.

Here is my idea of how to improve the new mechanic: Give me more control over the stacks. Make them spendable on heavy attacks only. It means I don't have to be completly defensive but I also can decide when and where to use them. I simply don't heavy attack. And nobody wants to spend a percentage buff on a weak attack anyway.

What do you think are the most important issues. How would you address them?

[Kotzi]

It is stupid to build up your buffs when with fencing weapons you can obliterate the horde in that time. This system doesnt make any sense.

Let me hit harder, faster and more enemies per se otherwise there is no valid reason to forgo the advantages parrying has.

[Silverquick]

I will agree, I tried the Block Hammer again on Assault... and its really no noticable difference.

They would have needed to make it a good 50% more damage for that kind of trade off for no parries.

[MeToLee]

I kinda liked the block weapons now. That being said I mostly used them on the new operations against chaos. They feel better and things die a lot more easily. Didnt have much trouble getting Adrenaline Surge stacks with amount of things attacking me. And it felt satisfying to make the aoe damage attack.

Originally posted by Mohrrunkel:

And here's where the problems I have with this weapon start. Killing quickly is an important part of the gameplay, this weapon slows it down. The damage buff on 1 or 2 stacks is almost negligible. To gain anything from the new mechanic, gaining 3 stacks is imperative. But Ihave little control over how fast you can gain them. All kinds of attack spend them instantly, so should I wait for the enemies to attack me again? Or is that slower than just attacking without 3 stacks? In most cases the latter is the better option. When I decide to be patient the foes just seem to have a sixth sense and delay forever.

You kind of kill enemies more quickly if you can press the attack thanks to damage buffs but like you said when you need to block you need to block one move after the other until they finish their attack chain. So I think dodge gains a little more value at this point. Block until you get your stacks and dodge out of the way to make your attack.

[w10-20-2000]

My problem is this:
Lack of perks. Perfect parry has a lot of buffs. Assault has non-finisher armor restor, and gunstrike damage increase.

Bulwark has parry AOE damage and same gunstrikes armor restore

Van is the only one who can increase perfect block window. But considering how fast you can die if you make a mistake.

I just can't find a reason to give up gunstrikes, even with stacks seem like a bad trade

[revswindler]

At this point it sounds like they just need to get rid of Block, Balance, and Fencing as the distinctions entirely. Make all weapons perform as Fencing, and just focus on damage, speed, and cleave stat differences.

[w10-20-2000]

Originally posted by revswindler:

At this point it sounds like they just need to get rid of Block, Balance, and Fencing as the distinctions entirely. Make all weapons perform as Fencing, and just focus on damage, speed, and cleave stat differences.

Would work a lot better, and allow us to use all class perks and gunstrikes. Actually like this idea, burn this whole system down instead of shoehorning block in parry oriented game

[Silverquick]

Originally posted by revswindler:

At this point it sounds like they just need to get rid of Block, Balance, and Fencing as the distinctions entirely. Make all weapons perform as Fencing, and just focus on damage, speed, and cleave stat differences.

I'd say a better solution would be something like... Fencing gives you 3 Paries within a certain amount of time, while Balance gives you 2 and Block gives you 1.

[VANGUARD]

I've tried the relic combat knive with blocking in the Inferno operation multiple times as vanguard.
Since I played with bots most of the enemies were swarming around me a lot of the time.
It took some getting used to since you can't interrupt enemies' combos with parry anymore, so you're more on the defensive.
In that situation it's not difficult to build up stacks - I just move around and cull the herd with the melta in the mean time.
The problem is using the stacks with a heavy attack.
A lot of the time I ended up using the stacks on light attacks instead.

So far my experience with it.
Only using the stacks on heavy attacks would be a good start.
Not sure if the current implementation gives enough benefits to outweigh the loss of control over the battle flow though (interrupting combos).
Being on the defensive is always a disadvantage since the opponent has the initiative.
Personally I'd rather have it as a passive melee damage increase that builds up with each perfect block.
The stacks shouldn't get used up in that scenario.

[MeToLee]

Originally posted by VANGUARD:

I've tried the relic combat knive with blocking in the Inferno operation multiple times as vanguard.
Since I played with bots most of the enemies were swarming around me a lot of the time.
It took some getting used to since you can't interrupt enemies' combos with parry anymore, so you're more on the defensive.
In that situation it's not difficult to build up stacks - I just move around and cull the herd with the melta in the mean time.
The problem is using the stacks with a heavy attack.
A lot of the time I ended up using the stacks on light attacks instead.

So far my experience with it.
Only using the stacks on heavy attacks would be a good start.
Not sure if the current implementation gives enough benefits to outweigh the loss of control over the battle flow though (interrupting combos).
Being on the defensive is always a disadvantage since the opponent has the initiative.
Personally I'd rather have it as a passive melee damage increase that builds up with each perfect block.
The stacks shouldn't get used up in that scenario.

I liked the idea of heavy attack. but I would like to add this: If you light attack you do incresed damage for duration of the buff or you heavy attack and use it all at once for an aoe attack.

[Bardiele]

In my opinion they should give more of a "oomph" to blocking weapons. More damage for no parry it's a no brainer to me when parrying is still not only better but MUCH MORE COOL to do, apart from the fact that it also give you some space to breath in a swarm.

I'd say they should give block weapons the ability to parry orange hits, this way you can actually tank almost everything.

Melee damage it's never been a problem to me, even on ruthless enemies do go down pretty quickly once you pummel them a bit (still not saying no to a 20% buff all around).

[Realmonster]

Ive been using the block and balance hammers a lot today and I have to say that it seems to not give adrenaline rush to me even when i get the perfect block. BUT, even if it did and the system was working perfectly; even if it was 3x damage, which its not, it wouldnt hold a candle to balance hammers damage output.

the parry knockback provides a window to get the first swing out of a charge attack before you have to parry again. if there is a single enemy you're fighting you can parry/stagger, then get the first swing AND slam done on the enemy before he can get a hit in AND your gunstrike is still up to use to regain armor.

im going to keep trying it out, but right now its looking like although they intended block to be the damage dealing choice, the damage output is nowhere near the damage output of balance.

i havent touched fencing, i cant see how it would be useful when i dont have a problem with the timing on balance

[Chindian]

It doesnt make a difference. The block weapons are still trash and the bulwarks isnt fun to play.

[PJ]

Block weapons should function just like the Bulwark's shield: Hold them down, and just constantly block everything coming at you with full damage reduction. Only difference would be it doesn't block ranged attacks, only melee. This starts to make them a bit more distinct and gives them a clear advantage over fencing weapons with ease of use.

For damage buff, I would do something like this: Every time you block an attack you get a stack of the Defender buff (certain big attacks might give more), and every time you take damage you lose a certain number of stacks. Each stack of this buff has the following effects:
- increases your damage by a small percent
- gives an increasing chance that enemies you block will enter the Gun Strike state

This makes the Block weapons have a different play style from other weapons where you're playing very defensively and being rewarded for it (if you do it well) with a constant high damage buff and random gun strike opportunities.

Honestly, Balanced and Fencing weapons should be just as distinct from one another, rather than just being a bit different in stats.

[Riqcrow]

this new "block to get buff" concept is stupid, plain and simple. While I get that perfect parry + gunshot was way too boring and repetitive, this is not helping melee class (bulwark) at all. Bulwark is just for heals now.

parrying should be fluid part of warrior duels, giving time to sink more melee hits in. I understand tiers would be powersword > chainsword > knife > hammer > powerfist. In opposite direction (thunderhammer and fist) should be 1v1 damage gods, slow and cumbersome (no parry) but devastating in damage. So powerfists and thunderhammers excel in erasing big objects and swords cleaving through smaller objects with ease while being good duel weapons against warriors (parry). Knife is good to clear small trash but not optimal on bigger enemies.

Overall damage should be increased. I dont want to empty one clip to kill a Warrior, or hit it 15 times with relic weapon in lethal. already hitting hormagaunt 3 times with relic powerfist kills any power fantasy vibe this game should give. Compensate with even more enemies, I don't care.

[Shield]

Strong step in the right direction for the game. Not gonna move me off FENCINGCOPE just yet, but maybe now running Block isn't a objectively a mistake.