SAY NO TO APOTHECARY (IF IT BECOMES A CLASS)

[Perturabo]

THIS IS A HOT TAKE

Guys who are we kidding here? It seems like the developers are trying to pave the way to add a new class, and I was dreading that they might add the apothecary.

Tell me, how many of you will actually want to play 30-45 minutes in an absolutely chaotic game where the only job you have is focused on supporting the other players (which may or may not play well)? Your survival will depend completely on them and your skill at healing them. This doesn't sound appealing to me at all. Does it to you? (honestly)

In what game do you actually enjoy playing a healing based class? This isn't like a paladin or a cleric from DND. This isn't some incredible 40k-roleplay-fantasy either.
Who in their right mind thinks "I want to be an apothecary!" when they think about 40k or space marines? Any other class is better and there is already a versatile class that exists which would likely do the healing better, can tank, and can cut down enemies with AOE and individually pick them apart. (BULWARK)

The bulwark is fun because it has the capability to hold a point, save its allies by healing them occasionally throughout the mission (*ALL AT ONCE*), and tank enemies. If they get rid of a perk for a versatile class, and replace it with an entire class dedicated to healing its teammates, I think the community will flip out. Exchanging versatility for specialization when the versatile class already completely heals it's allies seems like a mistake.

This is a preemptive post, I'm just curious about what other people think. This is my OPINION(*so don't freak out*), but I am not and never have been the type of guy to play a healer in any game unless the healer is capable of some serious damage output at some level, or if i'm playing a game like D&D.

Any thoughts?

[Perturabo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Slithy:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Perturabo:

Tell me, how many of you will actually want to play 30-45 minutes in an absolutely chaotic game where the only job you have is focused on supporting the other players (which may or may not play well)? Your survival will depend completely on them and your skill at healing them. This doesn't sound appealing to me at all. Does it to you? (honestly)

Firstly, this says more to your lack of knowledge of what an Apothecary in 40K is capable of. Secondly, I'd love to be the support class in this game. It's actually why I enjoy the Bulwark. Nothing gives me more warm fuzzies than seeing somebody about to die, running up to them, planting a banner and watching them heal.

I disagree. In any of the books I read, the only apothecaries out on the battlefield in 40k are the ones pulling gene-seed from the deceased. (unless they are chaos apothecaries) When a space marine really needs medical attention, they really need it in the form of organ transplants and limb replacements and that usually happens behind the battlefield, not on its front line.

I think I'm right about that, at least so far within the seige of terra novels and the first two horus heresy novels I've read that seems to be the case. I've never played the board game because i'm not spending hundreds-thousands of dollars on plastic miniatures carrying the GW logo. I've played dnd, you don't have to spend that much money.

[[HN]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Perturabo:

I disagree. In any of the books I read, the only apothecaries out on the battlefield in 40k are the ones pulling gene-seed from the deceased. (unless they are chaos apothecaries) When a space marine really needs medical attention, they really need it in the form of organ transplants and limb replacements and that usually happens behind the battlefield, not on its front line.

I think I'm right about that, at least so far within the seige of terra novels and the first two horus heresy novels I've read that seems to be the case. I've never played the board game because i'm not spending hundreds-thousands of dollars on plastic miniatures carrying the GW logo. I've played dnd, you don't have to spend that much money.

Yup. In theory apothecary can perform battlefield surgery, but space marines are so sturdy that they basically never need it. They can take massive injuries and keep going, or just die.
They have a high healing factor, their would close almost instantly, they don't bleed out, and when they take too much damage that they have to stop they fall into a self induced coma to keep them alive for as long as possible.

A space marine seldome need a "booster" (their body and armour can literally do that for them), or have their wound bet patched up on the battlefield.

The main role of an apothecary is to follow the developement and maintenance of the highly complex bio-engineering creatures that are the astartes.
They follow the creations of new marines, keep the purity of their gens in check (to make sure there is no random mutation or degradation going on that could taint the chapter genestock), check marines vitals between missions, making sure their complex bio engineered body function as expected and rectify any problems with various Chemotherapy (which is why many are bald btw), or deal with stuff like bionic implantation etc, etc.

On the battlefield their real function is to gather the geneseed of the fallen marines.
For the people that don't know here's a quick run down of how marines "lineage" work:
To create a marine you implant a gland that contains all the gene stuff into a regular human (it's more complicated, but that's the big part of it).
When the marine "mature" they grow another gland" (so now they have 2).
When they die, the glands are harvested on their bodies and used to create new marines.

The battlefield role of an Apothecary is to harvest these things to ensure the continuation of the chapter (because without glands, no more new marines).

Trying to pretend they are battlefield healer just don't work from a lore standpoint, but also from a gameplay standpoint (there would be nothing lamer than having to walk up to your teamate, press Q and fill their HP bar as an ability, and it would be something pretty annoying to do in the middle of battle where everyone is rolling around).

[The_Dipl0mat]

Additional ideas is increasing overall weapon accuracy for the entire squad/turning all hits into critical hits as the class ability. Based off the Apothecary Biologis surgical precision ability in 10th ed

[Vandorix]

I approve of the raging gene seed enthusiast class.

[Oh that's a baseball]

I am more concern with when can we wear terminator armour or calling dreadnought for help

[argenex]

Diposting pertama kali oleh The_Dipl0mat:

Additional ideas is increasing overall weapon accuracy for the entire squad/turning all hits into critical hits as the class ability. Based off the Apothecary Biologis surgical precision ability in 10th ed

Probably this and some sort of health boon.

Didn't they already just say this week that they don't want to alter the bulwark anymore because of how much we as a community have come to rely on it?

All they did was tone it down.

An Apothecary does more on the battlefield than just pick up geneseeds after battle;
- They have a unique device that could add a new interesting dynamic during melee combat
- They can heal mortal wounds; in tabletop they literally can bring a unit back from life, of course it's a die roll but that's what they do. Units all have wounds, when they are out of wounds pool, they are 'technically' dead for the purposes of the battle. During a campaign, after a battle you roll to find out if units are recovered from the wounds. In this game, it could be a simple skill to recover someone's wound. They are also able to do so if within range the following round, to recover a unit's wound. This is why you attach them to hero/specialized unit groups.
- The banner recovering health isn't perfect to rely on; you need timing, positioning, and a unit to execute for people to heal. So it's kind of situational and not a gauranteed heal for the team. Will it be useless with an apothecary? Of course not, we have no idea how one will fit.
- It would be a good opportunity to introduce a chain fist melee weapon, but the assault should also have access to that weapon.
- Apothecaries have access to specialized wargear, even including Terminator armor

Lastly; bulwark isn't even a 'class', that is more of a mosh-posh of different items. Storm shields are classically used by Terminators or inquisition units, Banners are carried by standard bearers who are usually in a command company and squad. Power swords are usually command or veterans who have access to specialized equipment.

So while I can understand the concern over how it will affect an existing character class people have come to rely upon, remember that the w40k universe is VAST and has way more content even with space marines, than the game itself can barely show.

edit;
Lastly I vote for all the classes being represented in some way, but also they are trying to marry the operations and PVE segments, with the game's story.

Here's what I wish for regardless;
- Apothecary
- Chaplain
- Techmarine

[McDinglefart]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Perturabo:

In what game do you actually enjoy playing a healing based class?

My favorite MMO class.

[[HN]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh argenex:

Lastly; bulwark isn't even a 'class', that is more of a mosh-posh of different items. Storm shields are classically used by Terminators or inquisition units, Banners are carried by standard bearers who are usually in a command company and squad. Power swords are usually command or veterans who have access to specialized equipment.

You've spinned a lot of bs in that post that I don't have the time (or will) to adress, but that one is so blatant it's actually hillarious you even tried to pull it.
The Bullwark is literally the Bladeguard veteran, just like the "vanguard" is literally the Reaver.
Cmon bro.

[argenex]

I feel I need to add that 90% of the randoms I encounter have no idea about the mortal wound mechanic and refuse stoically to use the 2 stimpaks I've had to spam ping on that they picked up.

[argenex]

Diposting pertama kali oleh HN:

Diposting pertama kali oleh argenex:

Lastly; bulwark isn't even a 'class', that is more of a mosh-posh of different items. Storm shields are classically used by Terminators or inquisition units, Banners are carried by standard bearers who are usually in a command company and squad. Power swords are usually command or veterans who have access to specialized equipment.

You've spinned a lot of bs in that post that I don't have the time (or will) to adress, but that one is so blatant it's actually hillarious you even tried to pull it.
The Bullwark is literally the Bladeguard veteran, just like the "vanguard" is literally the Reaver.
Cmon bro.

When were they introduced?
If it's within the last 10 years I've probably not known it. I started playing about 38 years ago and I admit I haven't really added any of the new units to my chapter. Gets costly.

I see they were added in 2017.
So, from my perspective, I did not know they were a specific unit that was introduced.
I apologize, but I wasn't spinning anything, just from my limited knowledge. Please oh forgive me. /s

[argenex]

Diposting pertama kali oleh HN:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Perturabo:

I disagree. In any of the books I read, the only apothecaries out on the battlefield in 40k are the ones pulling gene-seed from the deceased. (unless they are chaos apothecaries) When a space marine really needs medical attention, they really need it in the form of organ transplants and limb replacements and that usually happens behind the battlefield, not on its front line.

I think I'm right about that, at least so far within the seige of terra novels and the first two horus heresy novels I've read that seems to be the case. I've never played the board game because i'm not spending hundreds-thousands of dollars on plastic miniatures carrying the GW logo. I've played dnd, you don't have to spend that much money.

Yup. In theory apothecary can perform battlefield surgery, but space marines are so sturdy that they basically never need it. They can take massive injuries and keep going, or just die.
They have a high healing factor, their would close almost instantly, they don't bleed out, and when they take too much damage that they have to stop they fall into a self induced coma to keep them alive for as long as possible.

A space marine seldome need a "booster" (their body and armour can literally do that for them), or have their wound bet patched up on the battlefield.

The main role of an apothecary is to follow the developement and maintenance of the highly complex bio-engineering creatures that are the astartes.
They follow the creations of new marines, keep the purity of their gens in check (to make sure there is no random mutation or degradation going on that could taint the chapter genestock), check marines vitals between missions, making sure their complex bio engineered body function as expected and rectify any problems with various Chemotherapy (which is why many are bald btw), or deal with stuff like bionic implantation etc, etc.

On the battlefield their real function is to gather the geneseed of the fallen marines.
For the people that don't know here's a quick run down of how marines "lineage" work:
To create a marine you implant a gland that contains all the gene stuff into a regular human (it's more complicated, but that's the big part of it).
When the marine "mature" they grow another gland" (so now they have 2).
When they die, the glands are harvested on their bodies and used to create new marines.

The battlefield role of an Apothecary is to harvest these things to ensure the continuation of the chapter (because without glands, no more new marines).

Trying to pretend they are battlefield healer just don't work from a lore standpoint, but also from a gameplay standpoint (there would be nothing lamer than having to walk up to your teamate, press Q and fill their HP bar as an ability, and it would be something pretty annoying to do in the middle of battle where everyone is rolling around).

We use them on tabletop to heal specialized / hero units, it's common to keep them attached or within range (motorcycles for speed) to bring a unit immediately back into battle by healing wounds.

I can understand you don't want an apothecary, but they do more than just harvest geneseed.

[lissi]

Diposting pertama kali oleh argenex:

I feel I need to add that 90% of the randoms I encounter have no idea about the mortal wound mechanic and refuse stoically to use the 2 stimpaks I've had to spam ping on that they picked up.

yep but thats because the game really does a poor job explaining the mechanic.

[The_Dipl0mat]

Diposting pertama kali oleh argenex:

Diposting pertama kali oleh The_Dipl0mat:

Additional ideas is increasing overall weapon accuracy for the entire squad/turning all hits into critical hits as the class ability. Based off the Apothecary Biologis surgical precision ability in 10th ed

Probably this and some sort of health boon.

Didn't they already just say this week that they don't want to alter the bulwark anymore because of how much we as a community have come to rely on it?

All they did was tone it down.

An Apothecary does more on the battlefield than just pick up geneseeds after battle;
- They have a unique device that could add a new interesting dynamic during melee combat
- They can heal mortal wounds; in tabletop they literally can bring a unit back from life, of course it's a die roll but that's what they do. Units all have wounds, when they are out of wounds pool, they are 'technically' dead for the purposes of the battle. During a campaign, after a battle you roll to find out if units are recovered from the wounds. In this game, it could be a simple skill to recover someone's wound. They are also able to do so if within range the following round, to recover a unit's wound. This is why you attach them to hero/specialized unit groups.
- The banner recovering health isn't perfect to rely on; you need timing, positioning, and a unit to execute for people to heal. So it's kind of situational and not a gauranteed heal for the team. Will it be useless with an apothecary? Of course not, we have no idea how one will fit.
- It would be a good opportunity to introduce a chain fist melee weapon, but the assault should also have access to that weapon.
- Apothecaries have access to specialized wargear, even including Terminator armor

Lastly; bulwark isn't even a 'class', that is more of a mosh-posh of different items. Storm shields are classically used by Terminators or inquisition units, Banners are carried by standard bearers who are usually in a command company and squad. Power swords are usually command or veterans who have access to specialized equipment.

So while I can understand the concern over how it will affect an existing character class people have come to rely upon, remember that the w40k universe is VAST and has way more content even with space marines, than the game itself can barely show.

edit;
Lastly I vote for all the classes being represented in some way, but also they are trying to marry the operations and PVE segments, with the game's story.

Here's what I wish for regardless;
- Apothecary
- Chaplain
- Techmarine

Tbh seeing apothecary executions would be absolutely baller. And that'd also be a nice ability that wouldn't overshadow Bulwark but compliment it (healing mortal wounds). Though as HN said, Bulwark is an actual model.

Currently on tabletop, they can't really heal wounds though. It's just bringing back destroyed non-character models while leading a unit. With the biologis variant being a firepower enhancer. Though the standard one has an ability where when a bodyguard unit is destroyed you can roll a 2+ to harvest their geneseed and gain a command point. So it'd be neat to see a class that could pick up geneseed after someone else drops it.

[[HN]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh argenex:

You're a very rude person, as my grandfather used to say; just because it's important to you, doesn't mean it's important to anyone else.

If you don't like other folk's opinions, you don't need to be rude about it.

And you are a liar and someone that like to speak with authority despite being clueless of the topic you speak off. I imagine my grandfather would have called you many things, none of them pretty.

[argenex]

Diposting pertama kali oleh The_Dipl0mat:

Diposting pertama kali oleh argenex:

SNIP.

Wait, they changed the "Lookie here I'm back from the dead!" mechanic?

I guess it's good I never relied on it then.