The space marines are not good or likeable.

[Dean Winchester]

They are constantly fighting, bickering, angry at one another. Overly emotional. Hardly the well-coordinated, seasoned killing machines that they are supposed to be as per lore.

As for Titus, he doesn't sound, speak, or act like the Titus of game 1. He is very passive aggressive and constantly arguing with everyone. Like some sort of emotional teenager. And I would know because I bought & beat the original game a few days before starting this one. See my recently played games.

While there was some tension and disagreement about Titus's decisions, they were a well-coordinated squad. Titus was stoic, spoke confidently and clearly, and acted like a courageous commander. Everyone did their duty. In contrast, the squad members in SM2 are constantly at each other's throats and are regularly getting emotional & disobeying orders. Neither of the squad mates in this game seem particularly likeable.

Perhaps they wanted more drama and tension in this game, but I don't think this is the place for it. It detracts from the experience of playing as a fanatical, genetically engineered superhuman whose craft is death. I still enjoy the gameplay, visuals, and spectacles but these characters aren't doing it for me. Maybe if this was the 30K era marines, but they're not.

What do you think?

[L O]

I finally got around to start reading the books, finished Brothers of the Snake, and they are well tuned killing machines, but they don't all sit around the camp fire clapping hands and singing kumbaya,

They have faults and argue but even when at odds with one another they would still die for their brothers.

[Chaoslord 87]

Titus change in character is plausible.
He got thrown into the clutches of the Inquisition by one his own Brothers (Leandros)
Got tortured interrogated and put between these sessions into stasis for a century by Inquisitor Thrax who already hates Astartes for their role in the Badab War.

And after he got reintegrated into the Ultramarines as a Lieutenant, he has been given a direct order by the Chaplain to keep his mouth shut about his past in regards of the Chaos incursion on Graia and his time as a Blackshield in the Deatwatch which puts him into a very uncomfortable place.

It is only after he opened up towards Gadriel and Charion and the incident at the Astropathic Choir on Avarax, that he slowly becomes his old self again.

[[TUUONCUOGB]BothChicken]

Originally posted by Skibidirizzler:

They are constantly fighting, bickering, angry at one another. Overly emotional. Hardly the well-coordinated, seasoned killing machines that they are supposed to be as per lore.

I don't think they're that emotional all things considered. Titus is constantly doubted and insulted, yet he obeys his orders all the same. Gadriel and Charion do have moments where they break down, but those were special moments in line with how Space Marines think. They are psychically indoctrinated to be murder machines, to crave war and bring death, as well as purge any corruption and treachery. Charion had the rage, the blood lust, whereas Gadriel emphasized the need to purge corruption. Charion himself was a kid when the Word Bearers attacked Calth, he is traumatized by that event and this explains why his goes nuts after finding traitors. Gadriel I think had every right to be suspicious of Titus.

I think DoW 2, the vanilla campaign, did this the best with how they talked and how they dealt with being post human.

Originally posted by Skibidirizzler:

As for Titus, he doesn't sound, speak, or act like the Titus of game 1. He is very passive aggressive and constantly arguing with everyone. Like some sort of emotional teenager. And I would know because I bought & beat the original game a few days before starting this one. See my recently played games.

That's because he isn't, he was banished from his own chapter by his own subordinate, forced to go with the indignity with being a Black Shield in the Deathwatch, something only those from chapters which are dead or turned traitor undergo and he's done this for hundreds of years in game. He did exactly what he was supposed to do, and was rewarded with being branded a traitor for merely being able to resist the touch of the warp. He has a lot of bitter feelings bottled up, that he needs to keep bottled up lest they doom him and everyone around him, as well as manifesting in him wanting to be quiet about his past and not be straight with his squad mates.

Originally posted by Skibidirizzler:

While there was some tension and disagreement about Titus's decisions, they were a well-coordinated squad. Titus was stoic, spoke confidently and clearly, and acted like a courageous commander. Everyone did their duty. In contrast, the squad members in SM2 are constantly at each other's throats and are regularly getting emotional & disobeying orders. Neither of the squad mates in this game seem particularly likeable.

That's because they're not his squad mates. In SM1 they've been with Titus for some time, he's fought with them for awhile. They already know and trust him. In SM2 they are brand new marines, in fact born 10k years ago during the Horus Heresy and kept in stasis. They randomly come into the fact that they now have to take orders from someone who did something he will not share that resulted in his banishment from the chapter. I'd be suspicious as hell. Marines with much cleaner records than that turned traitor within Warhammer 40k, and they should always be on guard for heresy .

Originally posted by Skibidirizzler:

Perhaps they wanted more drama and tension in this game, but I don't think this is the place for it. It detracts from the experience of playing as a fanatical, genetically engineered superhuman whose craft is death. I still enjoy the gameplay, visuals, and spectacles but these characters aren't doing it for me. Maybe if this was the 30K era marines, but they're not.

I disagree, that's not really what makes Warhammer 40k special. I mean, it's not exactly THAT special, but what makes it stand out is the medieval inquisition style society. Conveying the themes of suspicion of corruption, the backwards nature of society in this universe through its technology and the rampant dark militarism, there's a point to it. It's not just a battlefield where you throw your toys from different franchises together, it's a universe with themes around fanaticism, superstition, totalitarianism and religion. The fact that they weren't just loyal foot soldiers but at times defied their commander and doubted him adds to the story, not detracts.

Also yes, Charion at least is from the 31st Milenium. I think the lore for Primaris is kind of dumb, but basically the head honcho at the Adeptus Mechanicus collected a bunch of people back then to create the first batch of Primaris Marines. He worked on it for 10k years and created legions of Primaris Marines, enough for every chapter! All he needed was the permission of the Primarch Roboute Gulliman who just happened to come back to life at the right moment to do so as Chaos is breaking through the Imperium. This first batch were from the 31st Millennium and Horus Heresy Era, Charion in particular talks about being on Calth during the Word Bearers attack. I don't know about Gadriel, but it seems like he is as well, though he never directly says so.

[DragonSoundxSG]

Beta male confirmed. Go back to doing laundry for your wife's boyfriend.

[i_kill_pikachus]

F*male writers, limp wristers, and a mentally ill man in a wig. This is what they produce everywhere. They have an inherent hatred of actual masculinity.

[Mutant1988]

Space Marines being depicted as emotionally volatile teenagers is probably more consistent in the lore than the stoic warriors, because they're literal child soldiers.

The usual emotional development a regular human gets is denied them because from the age of 12 to 14, they're basically being psycho-indoctrinated, relentlessly trained, pumped full of growth hormones and other concoctions and surgically/genetically augmented (With incredibly invasive surgery) up until the age of 20-22 and then they're shipped off to a life dedicated to nothing but waging war.

If a situation is not covered by their training as soldiers, they legitimately don't know how to act and in stressful situations, they're basically wired towards taking violent actions.

They're hyper competent at waging war and the minutiae of fighting, tactics and military strategy.

They're not trained for social interactions.

[i_kill_pikachus]

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

Space Marines being depicted as emotionally volatile teenagers is probably more consistent in the lore than the stoic warriors, because they're literal child soldiers.

The usual emotional development a regular human gets is denied them because from the age of 12 to 14, they're basically being psycho-indoctrinated, relentlessly trained, pumped full of growth hormones and other concoctions and surgically/genetically augmented (With incredibly invasive surgery) up until the age of 20-22 and then they're shipped off to a life dedicated to nothing but waging war.

If a situation is not covered by their training as soldiers, they legitimately don't know how to act and in stressful situations, they're basically wired towards taking violent actions.

They're hyper competent at waging war and the minutiae of fighting, tactics and military strategy.

They're not trained for social interactions.

And of course, they have zero Chapter culture and zero experience speaking to their fellow Space Marines as well, which leads to these situations which are, as mentioned, entirely internal to the Ultramarines Chapter as depicted. If that wasn't the case, then nothing you wrote would be even remotely relevant to the situation at hand, so it must be that none of them have ever spoken to another Space Marine, ever.

[Chaoslord 87]

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

They're not trained for social interactions.

Salamanders and Blood Angels want have a word with you.

[Mutant1988]

Originally posted by i_kill_pikachus:

And of course, they have zero Chapter culture and zero experience speaking to their fellow Space Marines as well, which leads to these situations which are, as mentioned, entirely internal to the Ultramarines Chapter as depicted. If that wasn't the case, then nothing you wrote would be even remotely relevant to the situation at hand, so it must be that none of them have ever spoken to another Space Marine, ever.

Ultramarines are canonically absolutely ♥♥♥♥♥♥ towards anyone that deviate from established doctrine. The entire Uriel Ventris book series is evidence of that.

If you want to fault the game writing, the cardinal sin it committed is exaggerating the whole "Chaos corruption" thing.

Someone being resistant against warp effects, like Titus is, doesn't mean they're Chaos corrupted and the Ultramarines of all chapters would not make that leap of logic.

They have librarians, they write things down, they would not make that assumption.

But that's a fault carried over from Space Marine 1. And it being the core of the inter-personal conflict going on, characters end up acting stupid.

As always, it's Leandros fault. He started this whole idiotic thing and his lack of communication, even circumspect as to not reveal secrets, is what kept it going.

Originally posted by Chaoslord 87:

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

They're not trained for social interactions.

Salamanders and Blood Angels want have a word with you.

That's 2 out of 18 of the original legions.

[Teran]

Originally posted by Skibidirizzler:

They are constantly fighting, bickering, angry at one another. Overly emotional. Hardly the well-coordinated, seasoned killing machines that they are supposed to be as per lore.

Hahahaha good god. This dude thinks seasoned soldiers never fight with each other when they aren't on mission.

Originally posted by Skibidirizzler:

As for Titus, he doesn't sound, speak, or act like the Titus of game 1.

You should be more aware than anyone else then that Titus used to be the 2nd Company Captain before he was betrayed by one of his own, was tortured by an inquisitor, and eventually joined the Death Watch as a black shield and had to learn to get along with marines from all the other chapters before coming back to the Ultra Marines, being demoted, and then given command of another sergeant's squad.

No kidding his personality has changed and he has some conflicts with his own guys. HE DOESNT TRUST THEM. That's one of the central points of the game's story.

Originally posted by Skibidirizzler:

Perhaps they wanted more drama and tension in this game, but I don't think this is the place for it.

Perhaps they severely over estimated some of their audience's ability to understand character development.

[Chaoslord 87]

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

Originally posted by Chaoslord 87:

Salamanders and Blood Angels want have a word with you.

That's 2 out of 18 of the original legions.

Speaking of Legions.
It´s quite ironic and sad that some of the Traitor legions were equally if not more invested in uplifting and protecting Humanity as a whole than the Loyalists before their corruption.

Fulgrim said to the Emperors Children, that they should uplift humanity from the dirt as high as possible, while reminding them about his very humble beginning full of hardship on Chemos.

The Death Guard saw themselves in their early days as Slayers of Tyrants and Opressors to protect the weak.

[Teran]

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

But that's a fault carried over from Space Marine 1. And it being the core of the inter-personal conflict going on, characters end up acting stupid.

As always, it's Leandros fault. He started this whole idiotic thing and his lack of communication, even circumspect as to not reveal secrets, is what kept it going.

Story wise I thought it was insane that Leandros snitched directly to an inquisitor and not someone of higher rank within the chapter. There is no way they would have allowed him to become a chaplain after such a flagrant violation of the codex astartes.

[Mutant1988]

Originally posted by Teran:

Originally posted by Mutant1988:

But that's a fault carried over from Space Marine 1. And it being the core of the inter-personal conflict going on, characters end up acting stupid.

As always, it's Leandros fault. He started this whole idiotic thing and his lack of communication, even circumspect as to not reveal secrets, is what kept it going.

Story wise I thought it was insane that Leandros snitched directly to an inquisitor and not someone of higher rank within the chapter. There is no way they would have allowed him to become a chaplain after such a flagrant violation of the codex astartes.

Everything about Leandros and the whole "Corruption" thing is a much bigger issue with the game writing than anything else in my opinion.

Like the 2nd Company would have other senior Sergeants for him to turn to (Remember here, Titus is the Captain and thus the commander of the 2nd Company).

A Chaplain?

A Librarian?

If that fails, there's other chapters present too which a Space Marine would be more likely to turn to over the Inquisition.

[Naus]

Guys above devastated your statements enough already so I will just post lol.
Lol.

[Chaoslord 87]

Originally posted by Teran:

Story wise I thought it was insane that Leandros snitched directly to an inquisitor and not someone of higher rank within the chapter. There is no way they would have allowed him to become a chaplain after such a flagrant violation of the codex astartes.

Maybe to not raise even more suspicion right after Graia.
It would raise some unwanted eyebrows at the Inquisition, wouldn´t they "promote" Leandros for flushing out the "Heretic" Captain Titus.