This game expertly showcases positive masculinity

[CDXX]

I've seen this game compared to Gears of War a lot. The gameplay comparisons are obvious, but people have also compared the masculinity. Back when Gears came out, it was viewed as overtly macho, almost to a fault. I personally found all the testosterone in it to embody toxic masculinity, even before that term had been coined.

Space Marine 2 is much different in that regard, I'd say. Titus, Chairon, and Gadriel all make relatable mistakes. Each character eventually admits their fault, and learns from it. The other two are able to empathize and forgive, which deepens their bond. There is no sarcasm or casual disregard (except during the moments where it is an obvious jest during banter). For example, when Gadriel tries to kill Titus for suspicion of heresy, and fails, Titus says something to the effect of, "I understand what you did, but your suspicion ends here." That's probably the best possibly reaction for a leader to take in that scenario. What Gadriel did is understandable. We kind of have a third-person perspective, as the audience, but Gadriel doesn't, and his actions were obviously motivated by good intentions. Titus, as the leader, recognizes this using empathy, but then he immediately reasserts his authority to regain control of the situation. This is similar to what he does when Chairon goes beserker, which was a segment that I felt was very well done, as it seems to contrast positive and negative masculinity. Chairon goes crazy-town-banana-pants for a while out of a sense of brotherhood, and a feeling of debt for a friend he just watched die. These are positive, manly emotions. They become a problem when he lets rage overtake him. He shirks his responsibilities to his other brothers, and puts them in danger to indulge his hate, rather than focusing that hate into completing the mission. Titus correctly puts him in his place. But Titus himself also has to own the fact that his failure to open up to his subordinates created a rift of trust that was rendering his team ineffective. As the audience, it's easy to forgive the offenses of each character, because they all openly, and humbly, own their mistakes. The other characters then use this as an excuse to strengthen their bond, rather than harbor resentment. These men are more than mere alphas, they are sigmas.

And how well done was that scene where Titus raises the standard to rally the Ultramarines against Chaos? I got goosebumps. You're not really having an effect on the outcome, so you're able to focus more on the conversations, while still feeling the stakes as an active participant. At one point, someone laments a fallen brother. That got me. I lost my best friend from childhood early this year, a brother in strife. I can't imagine losing him in a situation like that. I'm not really a badass, but if that did happen, then I could probably become one in that moment. That scene did a good job of capturing that comradery.

I just wanted to share these insights, and see if others agree. I'm glad to see Titus finally get to resolve his story. And let me say that as a white person, if Space Marine 3 decided to follow the story of Chairon or Gadriel next, as they lead their own squad, then...I would play the ♥♥♥♥ out of that. Based on what I've read, I bet most white players would agree. These are three diverse characters who are not defined by their diversity. THIS IS HOW YOU MAKE DIVERSITY ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ NORMAL. You put it in the story and then ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ignore it, not draw attention to it. Complicated, forced diversity almost feels like voyeurism. If the characters are ignoring the diversity, this communicates to the audience that the characters perceive the diversity as normal. This can have a positive social influence by inspiring empathy for each other. Drawing attention to the diversity artificially, through things like dialogue, will counteract this effect.

Let me also say, as a male, that if they made a third-person shooter called Warhammer 40k: Sisters of Battle, with comparable gameplay, quality, lack of live service ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, etc., then...I would play the ♥♥♥♥ out of that, too. Hell, I'll play as female Guardsman if the game is good. I bet a lot of male players would agree with this sentiment, too. Part of being a strong man is recognizing the strength of the women, which this game actually does show through the valiance of the Cadians. They probably have to be braver than Space Marines to actually charge some Tyranids or daemons, since they don't have the advantage of essentially being a small mech, and it's obvious that the main characters respect this. Titus also never asks the female Cadian to go get the man in charge, or anything like that, but instead treats her role with proper deference, like a gigachad.

I even think it's a missed opportunity to not have Sisters of Battle skins for PvP. I feel like their emphasis on faith would fit thematically with the Bulwark class, for example.

It's ironic that such a healthy display of positive masculinity comes from the grimdark future.

[CHAO$$$]

gay

[CDXX]

Originally posted by CHAO$$$:

gay

Fair point

[Θαλασσινός]

#firstworldproblems

[Captain Worthy]

Well yeah, Space Marines are meant to be the champions of humanity and thus would exemplify positive masculine traits. I agree that the game has indeed showcased this well.

[Dick Daley]

Didn't read, responding to the title instead.
Marines aren't positive masculinity. Orks are.

[DeusEstMachina]

While I'm no fan of the idea of diverse Ultramarines, Chairon grew on me during the relatively short campaign. Agree with OP, the story is one of brotherhood. I'd rather have this given to young boys than all the "men bad" and "I'm a woman, hear me roar" trite we've been seeing for the last decade.

[cTrix]

Originally posted by ♥♥♥♥ Daley:

Didn't read, responding to the title instead.
Marines aren't positive masculinity. Orks are.

Orks are mushrooms, next.

[H4NS]

Too bad SM2 is very far from good game design lol.

[Dick Daley]

Originally posted by cTrix:

Originally posted by ♥♥♥♥ Daley:

Didn't read, responding to the title instead.
Marines aren't positive masculinity. Orks are.

Orks are mushrooms, next.

Orks are boys.
Also someone who talks like a fairy shouldn't be the arbiter of what is good masculinity.

[cTrix]

what

[Dick Daley]

Originally posted by cTrix:

what

Yes

[cTrix]

no literally, wtf are you even saying

[johnweythek]

"If the characters are ignoring the diversity, this communicates to the audience that the characters perceive the diversity as normal. This can have a positive social influence by inspiring empathy for each other. Drawing attention to the diversity artificially, through things like dialogue, will counteract this effect."

This is the answer to all of it. Put it in, don't make it the identity of the game. It feels normalized bc it is just normal in the story. This is how real life works. You have an important job; you can't pick your coworkers, but all your salary (lives) are based on your success. So you just work together bc it's a job and you eventually admire these people for their work ethics if they help you finish the job or realize the dream or whatever you're doing. The "content of character" is more on display here than any race, sex, or inclusion initiative.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by CDXX:

I've seen this game compared to Gears of War a lot. The gameplay comparisons are obvious, but people have also compared the masculinity. Back when Gears came out, it was viewed as overtly macho, almost to a fault. I personally found all the testosterone in it to embody toxic masculinity, even before that term had been coined.

Space Marine 2 is much different in that regard, I'd say. Titus, Chairon, and Gadriel all make relatable mistakes. Each character eventually admits their fault, and learns from it. The other two are able to empathize and forgive, which deepens their bond. There is no sarcasm or casual disregard (except during the moments where it is an obvious jest during banter). For example, when Gadriel tries to kill Titus for suspicion of heresy, and fails, Titus says something to the effect of, "I understand what you did, but your suspicion ends here." That's probably the best possibly reaction for a leader to take in that scenario. What Gadriel did is understandable. We kind of have a third-person perspective, as the audience, but Gadriel doesn't, and his actions were obviously motivated by good intentions. Titus, as the leader, recognizes this using empathy, but then he immediately reasserts his authority to regain control of the situation. This is similar to what he does when Chairon goes beserker, which was a segment that I felt was very well done, as it seems to contrast positive and negative masculinity. Chairon goes crazy-town-banana-pants for a while out of a sense of brotherhood, and a feeling of debt for a friend he just watched die. These are positive, manly emotions. They become a problem when he lets rage overtake him. He shirks his responsibilities to his other brothers, and puts them in danger to indulge his hate, rather than focusing that hate into completing the mission. Titus correctly puts him in his place. But Titus himself also has to own the fact that his failure to open up to his subordinates created a rift of trust that was rendering his team ineffective. As the audience, it's easy to forgive the offenses of each character, because they all openly, and humbly, own their mistakes. The other characters then use this as an excuse to strengthen their bond, rather than harbor resentment. These men are more than mere alphas, they are sigmas.

And how well done was that scene where Titus raises the standard to rally the Ultramarines against Chaos? I got goosebumps. You're not really having an effect on the outcome, so you're able to focus more on the conversations, while still feeling the stakes as an active participant. At one point, someone laments a fallen brother. That got me. I lost my best friend from childhood early this year, a brother in strife. I can't imagine losing him in a situation like that. I'm not really a badass, but if that did happen, then I could probably become one in that moment. That scene did a good job of capturing that comradery.

I just wanted to share these insights, and see if others agree. I'm glad to see Titus finally get to resolve his story. And let me say that as a white person, if Space Marine 3 decided to follow the story of Chairon or Gadriel next, as they lead their own squad, then...I would play the ♥♥♥♥ out of that. Based on what I've read, I bet most white players would agree. These are three diverse characters who are not defined by their diversity. THIS IS HOW YOU MAKE DIVERSITY ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ NORMAL. You put it in the story and then ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ignore it, not draw attention to it. Complicated, forced diversity almost feels like voyeurism. If the characters are ignoring the diversity, this communicates to the audience that the characters perceive the diversity as normal. This can have a positive social influence by inspiring empathy for each other. Drawing attention to the diversity artificially, through things like dialogue, will counteract this effect.

Let me also say, as a male, that if they made a third-person shooter called Warhammer 40k: Sisters of Battle, with comparable gameplay, quality, lack of live service ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, etc., then...I would play the ♥♥♥♥ out of that, too. Hell, I'll play as female Guardsman if the game is good. I bet a lot of male players would agree with this sentiment, too. Part of being a strong man is recognizing the strength of the women, which this game actually does show through the valiance of the Cadians. They probably have to be braver than Space Marines to actually charge some Tyranids or daemons, since they don't have the advantage of essentially being a small mech, and it's obvious that the main characters respect this. Titus also never asks the female Cadian to go get the man in charge, or anything like that, but instead treats her role with proper deference, like a gigachad.

I even think it's a missed opportunity to not have Sisters of Battle skins for PvP. I feel like their emphasis on faith would fit thematically with the Bulwark class, for example.

It's ironic that such a healthy display of positive masculinity comes from the grimdark future.

The game represents brotherhood within space marines chapters. It's not focusing in gender-identity which some (or most) of the players did regards to the discussions.

It's a game. It's fiction. Sometimes it implements some reality facts based on science, culture, etc. or was born from the imagination of the developers. Like books did. For most of the dev's (i know one personally as animator - but not for this game) it's kind of artistic work. Himself he did and will not implement messages between the lines in his creations as i know. This game does. But only communicated from the guidelines of GW itself i think. There is an official thread in the discussions what message WH40k has.

Computer games itself could be more than a medium of entertainment. But that must always commented by the devs or the inventor whether it is or not. Like movies does.

[cTrix]

Originally posted by johnweythek:

"If the characters are ignoring the diversity, this communicates to the audience that the characters perceive the diversity as normal. This can have a positive social influence by inspiring empathy for each other. Drawing attention to the diversity artificially, through things like dialogue, will counteract this effect."

This is the answer to all of it. Put it in, don't make it the identity of the game. It feels normalized bc it is just normal in the story. This is how real life works. You have an important job; you can't pick your coworkers, but all your salary (lives) are based on your success. So you just work together bc it's a job and you eventually admire these people for their work ethics if they help you finish the job or realize the dream or whatever you're doing. The "content of character" is more on display here than any race, sex, or inclusion initiative.

In this forum, nobody even noticed that the main squad is a white guy, a black guy, and an asian guy.

q.e.d.