[ SPOILER ] So if you false claims about heresy you get promoted ?

[Huntard]

So Titus was proven innocent but still had to serve 100 years in BLACK SHIELD in the death watch

and the other who lied and who did not even respect the codex by snitching directly to the inquisition instead of his chaplain, was PROMOTED ?!

this is crazy stuff, is this common in the warhammer 40k universe or did the devs of space marine 2 not play the first one ?

it would have been much more logical for Titus to see Leandros become a servitor

[Padds]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Leandros Adeptus Snitchus:

this is crazy stuff, is this common in the warhammer 40k universe or did the devs of space marine 2 not play the first one ?

yes suspicion is enough, being suspect is a crime , ignorance be your shield hate be your weapon , Duty is life and questions are heresy.

in the first one Leandros reports titus for heresy to drax , titus is woried about the people of graia and knows the inquisition could execute the entire planet. so titus takes one for the team so to say.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Yeah I don't think Leandros has enough charisma/faith to be a Chaplain.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von DeusEstMachina:

Leandros, while an unlikable character, likely got into the chaplaincy through his own merit. You don't just get awarded such a prestigious rank based on one event, and I don't think the chapter looked favourably at his action regarding Titus.
Leandros was already part of a battle company command squad, so he was most likely a veteran with a lot of experience and accolades. His zealousness likely got the attention of the company chaplain who took him under his wings as a chaplain candidate. That alone won't guarantee your future as a chaplain, so he probably proved his skill and devotion to the chapter and his brothers, until he was vouched for.
At the point of the current game, 200 years after the 1st one, he's implied to be the company chaplain, so despite his past misstep, he probably earned his position.

I cannot assume so because Leandros is still visibly buttmad at Titus despite Titus numerous feats and fighting toe to toe against Chaos.

In fact a question can be raised on why the Chaplain is not present in battles where Chaos sorcery is involved, a Chaplain's zeal and inspire would be duly needed to counter Chaos corruption.

But he hides back in the ship and casts doubt on Titus.

It's ridiculous. He should have been there to knock Imurah's head off.

[Toosoft]

the modo of inquisitors are litteraly "innocence prove nothing"

[REBirthTheEdge]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Exide:

the modo of inquisitors are litteraly "innocence prove nothing"

The point is the L-♥♥♥♥♥ man needs to follow the Codex Astartes that he loves so much, he needs to go over his suspicions with the Chaplain first before going to the Inquisition.

[Ishan451]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grove of Dreams:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ishan451:

No, those are the "Blackshields". A Forge World creation and only mentioned in the Forge World supplement "The Horus Heresy Book Six - Retribution". Blackshields are not Deathwatch Black Shields, not even tangentally related. The Blackshields are more akin to a "Chapter" than anything else, and the main difference is that you write them as one word, while the Black Shield of the Deathwatch is two words. Since you are pendantic about my mistake i can be too, right?

Blackshield is Blackshield, champ.

I went into detail why they are not, you doubling down, doesn't change the fact that Blackshields are not Black Shields. The Deathwatch Black Shields are something entirely different from the Warbands of 30k that went by the name Blackshields.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grove of Dreams:

One man's "slightly embelishment" is another man's "just making stuff up". Sadly, I can't find any volumes of White Dwarf that talk about why a Blackshield would join the Death Watch.

Except, i didn't make anything up. I quoted the relevant part and gave you the source for the Fantasy Flight Roleplaying game that goes into more detail. You on the other hand have no sources, because Blackshields do not exist in 40k, to my knowledge.

At best they are about as canon as the Fantasy Flight addition, which cover the possible personal motivations of a Black Shield, not however the rest i mentioned.

You are just wrong, and you have nothing to base your speculation on.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grove of Dreams:

all chapters respect the Deathwatch

They don't. Just like not every chapter respects the Inquisition, there are a lot of Chapters that do not like serving in the Deathwatch and will try to avoid it, if possible. Pretty much all Chapters that are in danger of their "secret" to be spilled to the Inquisition are very apprehensive to send people to the Deathwatch. Dark Angels, for example, do not send anyone initiated into the deeper secrets to the Deathwatch, leaving it solely a position for the Uninitiated and blissfully unaware of the Fallen.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grove of Dreams:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ishan451:

Are you seriously going to claim that 2 centuries ain't two centuries on the sole basis that some people have been alive for 10000 years or more? Like say Astelan of the Dark Angels.

Two centuries is a lot of time and a lot of stuff can happen in two centuries. To put this in perspective... A bit over 200 years ago we have had the French Revolution, where people fought with Muskets. We are talking Napoleon and such. Lot's of stuff happened since then.

How does that apply here?

You ask me how me pointing out that 200 years are a long time, even for beings with absurdly long lifespans, does apply to you suggesting that 200 years aren't a long time because they can life for a couple centuries?

I am not even sure how to begin to explain to you that 200 years are 200 years, regardless of how long you life.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grove of Dreams:

The point isn't hat "some" marines live longer lives, the point is that *everything* about an Astartes is warped from our own perspectives.

200 years are 200 years. Time is fixed, and while you can, in theory, stumble into a warp current and be whisked 300 years into the future, the same thing can happen in reverse.

We do not know what happened to Leandros. For all we know in Titus 200 years he lived 10000, after he was cast into an unfortunate warp current. It is equally likely that he only lived 2 months. We have nothing to go on, so all we can do is assume, based on the fact that he has a respectable position, he managed to serve his penance and gain enough accolades to gain the position (Unless you wish to engage in a bad faith argument and simply assume that the Devs put Leandros in the position just because they couldn't fit him anywhere else, where he could remain a thorn in Titus side).

Even humans, today, can redeem their past deeds within the span of a regular lifetime... there is no reason to assume Leandros couldn't have done so in the two centuries that have passed.

I never claimed more than that. We lack information, but 2 centuries are enough to serve a penance and still manage to gain recognition. We know this much, because people can do it in Real Life.

A Historical example would be Emperor Ashoka of Magadha. In his early days he was a horrific person, famous for even building himself a personal torture chamber, affectionately named Ashoka's Hell. He had a midlife crisis, realized how ♥♥♥♥♥♥ a person he was, converted to Buddism and spend another 3 decades as a benevolement, stable and peaceful ruler, repenting for his actions in the past.

Or if you want a more recent example.. Alfred Nobel, the guy that invented the Nobel Price, started out a merchant of war, was a raging antisemite and chauvinist, and all around terrible human being... and still most people consider his legacy favorable.

Nobel is a great example of a person that can be a raging D-bag and still become widely accepted and respected by society, to the point that they even made up a sob story about how he had his Mr Scrooge Moment, to mend his ways. (A story that has no evidence to it)

So, if we consider that humans can gain recognition despite being a terrible person or redeem their ways within a human life time, why would that not be possible in a time span of 2 centuries?

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grove of Dreams:

2 centuries isn't hands-down, undoubtedly enough time to have "worked off" having violated the Codex, lost the Chapter it's 2nd company captain, and brought the wrathful gaze of the inquisition down on everyone, and still worked back up from chapter asshat to 3rd company chaplain.

And you base that on what exactly? Most societies these days consider 25 years to be enough to repent for the act of cold blooded murder... even if we assume Leandros has to spend 100 years in the dog house, it would still leave enough time to make a come back. Especially if he showed the other Chaplains how repentant he was.

>200 years is a lot of time.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grove of Dreams:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ishan451:

Well, of course. I never claimed otherwise. I thought that was pretty obvious that i didn't say "this is how it happened" when i wrote "For all we know". What ever gave you the idea that it wasn't speculation?

Making the assertion is claiming that's how it happened. Adding "for all we know" is hedging, like saying "it's Friday and I'm tipsy". It's the God of the Gaps fallacy, the argument from silence fallacy, call it whatever you want. You make a claim, argue there is no evidence that specifically contradicts it, therefore your claim works. You then go on to call their assertions speculation explicitly.

Admitting my fault and giving reasoning for why i wrote Blackwatch, in a discussion about Black Shields, is not hedging. Especially in the face of you coming on extra strong to a simple freudian slip. I have no problem admitting my faults.

I am also not "hedging" when i am offering a possibility in a discussion, because i never asserted that "this is how it happened". Drawing inferences based on the information we have and the actual background, is also not "hedging".

And because i never asserted a definite solution, it is also no "Argument for Silence". An Argument from silence is using the absence of information as proof of the possibility. However, i did not say "this is what has happened"... i said "we don't know what happened, but two centuries are enough time that this is a possibility".

As for the "God of the Gaps"... we ain't having a theological discussion here. Throwing some words around, hoping the other person ends up being impressed doesn't work here. Way to try to invoke Brandolini's law, in hopes I will just not put up the effort to respond to your BS and thus make it seem like you made a point.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grove of Dreams:

Ah yes, and as we know... being one kind of fanatic immediately makes you more likely to be another kind of fanatic! That's how Leandros being allegedly fanatical (and yet seemingly very casual) about the secular Codex made him perfect for being the kind of religious fanatic that would become a chaplain!

[...]

They're also C H A P L A I N S... to the best of my knowledge, there are no Flying Spaghetti Monster Chaplains in the Eccelsiarchy

Yes... and Leandros is the posterboy Chaplain. As for the Flying Spaghetti Monster... who knows:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von 8th Edition Codex Space Marine page 65:

Chaplains are notoriously strict individuals;
[...]
Through tenet, dogma and catechism, they armour their brothers against heresy and false pride.
[...]
The first Chapters were founded centuries before the development of the Imperial Cult or the Adeptus Ministorum and with the lone exception of the Black Templars, Space Marines never acknowledged the doctrines or religious supremancy of the Ecclesiarchy. Space Marine Chaplains care little for the ravings of the Ecclestarch's priests and ignore the dictates of the Imperial Cult in favor of their own ancient traditions. While the Adeptus Ministorum has extended its influence throughout the galaxy, the Adeptus Astartes remain as stubbornly independent in their spiritual practices as ever.

Space Marine Chaplains have their own religion to uphold, based on the Chapter's Culture they are serving with. And unless its a Black Templar that spirituality they uphold is not the Imperial Creed.

Leandros is a posterboy Chaplain Personality because he has a real hard-on for heretics and heresy. And as such you can easily argue that his breech of the chapter custom might have been misguided but not wrong. With the right "stewardship" he thus could be taught to direct his zeal in a chapter compliant direction. Which then would serve easily as basis to put him on track to become a Chaplain.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grove of Dreams:

Also... what about that? I mean, he warns Titus that the "stain of suspicion never truly fades"...

A perfectly fine line for a Space Marine Chaplain. That is literally what they exist for. They are the last bastion against Heresy within the Chapter and it being said by Leandros might have been an extra point of contention, but it could have been said by any other of the Chapter Chaplains and it would have been perfectly concurrent with their position and role in the Chapter.

The fact that he had allegations made against him, means that he will always be watched by both the Chaplains and Inquisition.

As another poster in this thread remarked: "Finding no evidence for heresy only means you haven't looked hard enough".

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grove of Dreams:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ishan451:

He did not accept the blackshield. He is a Black Shield not a Blackshield.

Right, the Black Shield of the deathguard. Wait, Black Shield Watchguard? Black Death Shieldwatch? If only English weren't prone to making names that were two words into one word, or back again! Shield Death Blackwatch?

By Agni, are you obnoxious.

[Huntard]

leandros need to get impaled by titus

[Infrasound]

OP doesn't know how 40k works.

[Andy Prime]

"There isn't such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

[Kain]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Leandros Adeptus Snitchus:

leandros need to get impaled by titus

Please let's leave lgbt fanfic out of this.