[ SPOILER ] So if you false claims about heresy you get promoted ?

[Huntard]

So Titus was proven innocent but still had to serve 100 years in BLACK SHIELD in the death watch

and the other who lied and who did not even respect the codex by snitching directly to the inquisition instead of his chaplain, was PROMOTED ?!

this is crazy stuff, is this common in the warhammer 40k universe or did the devs of space marine 2 not play the first one ?

it would have been much more logical for Titus to see Leandros become a servitor

[Theta]

yeah, they didnt do the best. They just wanted leandros back and said ♥♥♥♥ the story.

[EmperorVolo]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Garatgh Deloi:

The codex was modified after the battle of Macgragge. That said it was in relations to tyranids and not religion :P

So twice, 10,000 years after it was written... then again 200 years later when its author came back to life in the Indomitus Era. Both times not about religion.

I must say, though -- I was unaware of anything that gave any Ultramarine the right / authority to rewrite the codex.

Roboute Guilliman the Ultramarine Primarch is the one who wrote it.

[RiseAgain]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Leandros Adeptus Snitchus:

So Titus was proven innocent but still had to serve 100 years in BLACK SHIELD in the death watch

and the other who lied and who did not even respect the codex by snitching directly to the inquisition instead of his chaplain, was PROMOTED ?!

this is crazy stuff, is this common in the warhammer 40k universe or did the devs of space marine 2 not play the first one ?

it would have been much more logical for Titus to see Leandros become a servitor

For totalitarian governments, innocence doesn't mean much. The criteria they use for promoting or punishing people is often entirely political. This is an aspect of the real world that Warhammer 40,000 reproduces very faithfully.

Even if Leandros was incorrect in his assessment about Titus being tainted, he still acted on the best interest of the Imperium, so, it's not really surprising he got promoted. As for Titus, even if the Inquisition could find no trace of corruption on him, they still had to make an example of him, otherwise people might questioning the legitimacy of the Inquisition as an institution.

So from the point of view of the average Imperium citizen, this situation is completely acceptable.

There's also the fact that Chaos doesn't mind corrupting people slowly, sometimes taking decades or even centuries to corrupt someone who's reallly powerful or important, and once Chaos gets ahold of someone, they're gone for good.

Welcome to Warhammer 40,000.

[Grove of Dreams]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Garatgh Deloi:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

I must say, though -- I was unaware of anything that gave any Ultramarine the right / authority to rewrite the codex.

It was after the Tyranids invaded the realm of Ultramar and in one large battle killed the whole first company (In terminator armor) and severally wounded two other companies and almost killed the chapter master. Not to mention the damage done to Macragge and the solar system.

I think they might have seen some alterations to their tactics as a necessity for this one threat. Especially since Tyranids weren't a threat when Guilliman wrote the codex.

No idea if its been altered any more times. This one update/alteration/whatever is the only one i know of.

I totally get why - the Tyranids are literally an entirely new kind of threat. I just didn't know that they (the Ultramarines) had the authority to change the text itself, rather than their own personal battle tactics. I guess I just see it as a weird scope issue, like if somehow the Imperial Fists could dictate who could or could not approach Terra just because Dorn once had that authority.

[donder172]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Garatgh Deloi:

It was after the Tyranids invaded the realm of Ultramar and in one large battle killed the whole first company (In terminator armor) and severally wounded two other companies and almost killed the chapter master. Not to mention the damage done to Macragge and the solar system.

I think they might have seen some alterations to their tactics as a necessity for this one threat. Especially since Tyranids weren't a threat when Guilliman wrote the codex.

No idea if its been altered any more times. This one update/alteration/whatever is the only one i know of.

I totally get why - the Tyranids are literally an entirely new kind of threat. I just didn't know that they (the Ultramarines) had the authority to change the text itself, rather than their own personal battle tactics. I guess I just see it as a weird scope issue, like if somehow the Imperial Fists could dictate who could or could not approach Terra just because Dorn once had that authority.

They don't have that authority. Guilliman, on the other hand, pretty sure he does have that authority. He wrote the book, after all. And he is the regent, if I'm not wrong.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

I totally get why - the Tyranids are literally an entirely new kind of threat. I just didn't know that they (the Ultramarines) had the authority to change the text itself, rather than their own personal battle tactics. I guess I just see it as a weird scope issue, like if somehow the Imperial Fists could dictate who could or could not approach Terra just because Dorn once had that authority.

Considering Guillimans personality i would not be surprised if the Codex Astartes has a section dedicated to how to add stuff to the Codex Astartes when facing new unforeseen threats :P. It would be just like him to plan for that eventuallity.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Oprindeligt skrevet af donder172:

They don't have that authority. Guilliman, on the other hand, pretty sure he does have that authority. He wrote the book, after all. And he is the regent, if I'm not wrong.

Mate, at the point in time we are talking about Guilliman was still in stasis. The Ultramarines made alterations to the Codex after the battle of Macragge themselves.

[NITRO]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Theta:

yeah, they didnt do the best. They just wanted leandros back and said ♥♥♥♥ the story.

How is Leandros still being alive a "♥♥♥♥ the story" moment?
Im so glad you people aren't in charge in writting games lol

[donder172]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Garatgh Deloi:

Oprindeligt skrevet af donder172:

They don't have that authority. Guilliman, on the other hand, pretty sure he does have that authority. He wrote the book, after all. And he is the regent, if I'm not wrong.

Mate, at the point in time we are talking about Guilliman was still in stasis. The Ultramarines made alterations to the Codex after the battle of Macragge themselves.

Oh, I was not aware of that.

Edit:
Removed one quote because it accidentally quoted the same post twice.

[Grove of Dreams]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Garatgh Deloi:

Considering Guillimans personality i would not be surprised if the Codex Astartes has a section dedicated to how to add stuff to the Codex Astartes when facing new unforeseen threats :P. It would be just like him to plan for that eventuallity.

I have no defense against this line of reasoning. It DOES sound like a very Guilliman thing to do, almost as much as adding "No one can edit this document, except my sons who are basically me. also, this does not count as non-compliance for the same reasons. Suck it, Rogal!"

[Grove of Dreams]

Oprindeligt skrevet af NITRO:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Theta:

yeah, they didnt do the best. They just wanted leandros back and said ♥♥♥♥ the story.

How is Leandros still being alive a "♥♥♥♥ the story" moment?
Im so glad you people aren't in charge in writting games lol

So the first game is made by a different developer group with a different publisher. Leandros is clearly set up as a gadfly / pissant / by-the-book prude foil to Captain Demetrian "Where in the Codex does it say I can't jump-pack from space onto a crashing Ork ship?!" Titus' more relaxed, experienced nature.

In practical terms, Leandros is a know nothing, do nothing foil that serves only to show how cool Titus is, and ultimately becomes responsible for him getting ♥♥♥♥♥♥ by the long ♥♥♥♥ of the Inquisition. In case you're wondering, in Bird Culture (and really for anyone who liked Captain Titus), this is considered a "♥♥♥♥ move".

Bringing Leandros back and doing NOTHING but making him the same pissant, whiny ♥♥♥♥♥ who seethes with hatred for Titus (except now with a skull helmet) shows zero growth on his part, while Titus has continued to mature both in and out of game. He doesn't even serve the purpose of foil because there are other characters for that and Leandros (in or out of costume) only appears like 3 times.

So, uh, yeah... from a story perspective, including Leandros was a stupid move and serves no purpose save to claim you have some tenuous tie to the original game that you had no part in making.

NOW... had they actually given Leandros something to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ DO... some way for him and Titus to come to an understanding, to bridge that gap... ♥♥♥♥, maybe even become BROTHERS... that would be a GOOD story moment. And who knows, maybe in another year when they finally release their "roadmap" content, there will be something to learn about Leandros... but until then, it's a stupid move.

[Ishan451]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

First, it's the DEATHWATCH.

Yeah, yeah... it was a "Freudian mistake"... its Friday evening, around midnight and i am tipsy. It happens.

You seriously have zero chill.

Oh and just to warn you, i might do it again.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

Second, being a Blackshield has nothing to do with the Deathwatch

No, those are the "Blackshields". A Forge World creation and only mentioned in the Forge World supplement "The Horus Heresy Book Six - Retribution". Blackshields are not Deathwatch Black Shields, not even tangentally related. The Blackshields are more akin to a "Chapter" than anything else, and the main difference is that you write them as one word, while the Black Shield of the Deathwatch is two words. Since you are pendantic about my mistake i can be too, right?

While on the other hand what i wrote is what the 8th Edition Codex Deathwatch had to say about the Black Shields.

Oprindeligt skrevet af 8th Edition Deathwatch Codex page 11:

Known as Black Shields, these mysterious warriors do not divulge their true name, nor do they bear the heraldry of their Chapter. Any icons, colours and scripts that would identify them have long been scoured from their armour, and they gladly don the sombre colours of the Deathwatch. Though the occasion is infrequent indeed, a Black Shield that enters a watch fortress will petition its master to accept him. The Watch Commander has the right to turn him away, but the might of an experienced Space Marine is so valuable, and the fight against the xenos so desperate, that in practice this rarely occurs. What caused the hooded warrior to take this drastic step will remain unknown, and within the Deathwatch there is a tacit understanding that the question will forever remain unasked

As well as some slightly embellishment from the Deathwatch:Rites of Battle Pen&Paper Roleplaying Rulebook by Fantasy Flight.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

Being accepted means they might find some honor again, or at least serve their purpose.

Now you are just making stuff up. Source for any of this?

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

Given the number of astartes known to have been still serving at 1200+ years, two centuries isn't nearly as long as you think it is.

Are you seriously going to claim that 2 centuries ain't two centuries on the sole basis that some people have been alive for 10000 years or more? Like say Astelan of the Dark Angels.

Two centuries is a lot of time and a lot of stuff can happen in two centuries. To put this in perspective... A bit over 200 years ago we have had the French Revolution, where people fought with Muskets. We are talking Napoleon and such. Lot's of stuff happened since then.

200 years is a damn long time to serve all sorts of penances, become redeemed and work to get into a position of honor.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

What's more, this is all speculation on your part regarding Leandros' punishment including ecclesiarchal reprimand.

Well, of course. I never claimed otherwise. I thought that was pretty obvious that i didn't say "this is how it happened" when i wrote "For all we know". What ever gave you the idea that it wasn't speculation?

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ishan451:

t is not uncommon. Chaplains are the most fanatical of the Astartes. It is kinda a requirement to become one to be a little coo coo for the coco pops, in order to get the position.

Codex Astartes != Cult of the Emperor. That's like saying "Well, you know, he always did try to follow the letter of the law. It's no wonder he became a fundamentalist brimstone preacher"

You really need to stop reading what you want to read, and actually read what i wrote. Being fanatical does not mean they are (necessarily) religious fanatics. There is a reason we specify that we talk about religious fanatics by adding "religious" before the word fanatics.. we do this because there are way more ways to be fanatical.

Chaplains exist to teach the tenets of the Chapter they serve in and as a means to direct and regulate the adherence to the Chapter. They are the most fanatic adherents of the Chapter's Culture. That is pretty much their purpose.

Since Leandros sort of "broke" with the Chapter's ideals by going behind the back, it makes sense that he would be put under the direct observation of a Chaplain. After which it could very well be, given how Leandros always was a stickler for rules, that he impressed the person he served his penance in.

We do not know.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ishan451:

[...]leave the Ultramarines, and not wishing to associate with other Astartes in general, after the perceived betrayal.

...you're aware the Titus lore is out there, right? Neither TItus believed he had betrayed the Ultramarines, nor did they believe he had betrayed them.

You have a serious issue with reading comprehension. I wrote nothing of the sort. Titus was betrayed by his brother Leandros, when he ratted him out to the Inquisition against Chapter Culture. And from this game we can very much see that Titus is bitter about it.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

He accepted the blackshield because he ASSUMED he had failed his chapter (else, why hadn't they come for him?).

He did not accept the blackshield. He is a Black Shield not a Blackshield.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

First, there is no evidence that the Codex Astartes was modified, updated, or altered in any way from its creation by Guilliman up to the Indomitus Era. As such, this text was created BEFORE the Ecclesiarchy, BEFORE the Inquisition, BEFORE the Ordos, and by a Primarch WHO UPHELD THE IMPERIAL TRUTH AND KNEW THROUGH PERSONAL EXPERIENCE THAT THE EMPEROR WAS FLESH AND BLOOD. There are NO grounds to believe the Codex would have any kind of religious content.

What is it with you and "religious content". Nobody but you is talking about religion. The Inquisition was created prior to the Assault on Horus Battle Barge by Malcador the Sigillite. The Codex Astartes was written after the Horus Heresy ended. There is every reason to assume that it contains instructions of when and how to work with the Inquisition.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grove of Dreams:

Any powers the Ecclesiarchy may have come long, long after the Codex's creation. Again, Codex Astartes != Cult of the Emperor

Seriously, what is with you and the Ecclesiarchy? How about you stick to what i actually wrote and not what you wish i wrote?

[Garatgh Deloi]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ishan451:

The Inquisition was created prior to the Assault on Horus Battle Barge by Malcador the Sigillite.

Unless i am mistaken Malcador created a organisation that would one day become the inquisition. Rather then the inquisition itself. I believe there is lore that claims that the inquisition was officially formed in the aftermath of the horus heresy.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ishan451:

The Codex Astartes was written after the Horus Heresy ended.

Going by recent lore it seems like he started writing it during the later parts of the heresy, that said it was "finished" after.

[Infrasound]

From the context of the Inquisition, if there is no proof, then they haven't looked hard enough.

[Modern Colonial]

Titus chose to enter service as a Blackshield. He could have kept his ultramarine colors and tried to get back in touch with his chapter, but he felt he was not worthy of being an ultramarine anymore. As it turns out, the ultramarines *did* try to get Titus back, but the Inquisition ignored their requests and Titus took the lack of contact as a sign he brought shame to the chapter and that they did not want him.