injustice to Space Marine 1 and Firstborn

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

prologue

the prologue was a blatant jab at Firstborn (and thru which also Space Marine 1), pushing the message that it takes a single tyranid warrior to kill a Firstborn, and that an outstanding Firstborn like Titus (who bested such a powerful traitor Firstborn as Nemeroth despite being worn down by his rubric marines) can be defeated by some carnifex just because he fought a couple of hormagaunts and tyranid warriors beforehand.

these jabs were thrown to show how Primaris lack such inadequacies Firstborn have... inadequacies which were clearly not present in Space Marine 1, and were made up in Space Marine 2. i understand that GW has a need to push Primaris on top of Firstborn, but making up Firstborn inadequacies that didn't exist just to achieve it feels disrespectful, inappropriate, and unnecessary. why not highball Primaris abilities and leave Firstborn as they were instead of downplaying them?

jabbing at Firstborn to promote Primaris

not giving Primaris such a crucial survivability tool as swordsman's zeal perk Firstborn have in Space Marine 1 doesn't exactly feel like highballing Primaris, but rather another tool of retconning Firstborn into being horrible. not to mention how the player is forced to play with Primaris bots (if not having 3 players) which are absolutely useless despite being "so superior to Firstborn", which further pushes Firstborn downplaying narrative. somehow the great superior Primaris have to spend so much time to kill a hormagaunt (because of how adequately weak their anemic strikes are), and somehow guardsmen (literally NORMAL humans) constantly win in close combat with them with their "dive back and shoot" animation, further jabbing at Firstborn thru Primaris performance. the game's campaign also pushes the message that Primaris instantly die from an explosion that's too weak to tear them apart or even lift them off the ground. you can even notice dead Primaris marine (or once even 2) without a single tyranid corpse laying around. it's like the game says "sure, Primaris are quite weak... but at least they are stronger than FIRSTBORN HAHAHA AM I RIGHT?".

what feels like yet another jab at Firstborn is how Thousand Sons (chaos marines) are so immensely weak in comparison to tyranids and daemons. it seems like Saber Interactive is pushing the message that 3 Primaris marines can take on dozens of Firstborn... especially considering how weak Thousand Sons sorcerers are to them, which supposed to be the most powerful of all sorcerers.


(it's all part of a broader point i made in a thread here)


praise the Emperor

[The_Dipl0mat]

引用自 Brother Phobos：

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

Yeah, I'm not denying that it was a one in a million chance that isn't likely to be recreated. That was one lucky human. Y'know, before he got ripped apart

However, a Carnifex throwing a Space Marine around isn't a "one in a million" situation. It's a fairly reasonable one. And while it isn't "one in a million", it's still a bloody miracle that a wounded Space Marine was capable of surviving a Carnifex (and support) by himself. While actively engaging it, not running away I should specify.

how would a firstborn be wounded by such a negligible tyranid force he fought beforehand? how is it a "miracle" if that carnifex barely had any support?

Firstborn wounded due to the fall from orbit without a jump pack, we can clearly see in the cutscene his armor doesn't lock up. We then see him take a serious enough shot from a Warrior that causes him to be temporarily stunned and fall off a ledge. These two are some heavy wounds. Then there's taking into consideration the living ammo. A Tyranids weapon shoots an Astartes, then the ammo either eats through armor, or crawls around and exploits weakspots. Then in the arena area, he's repeatedly attacked by Warriors/Termagaunts/Hormagaunts, all of which slowly chisel away at him. Before then the Carnifex appears.

Any marine who was unnamed and/or was wearing a helmet (because as we all know. If you have a name, and don't have a helmet. You have plot armor), would have been slaughtered. Being able to survive shows how resilient and tough Titus is.

[The_Dipl0mat]

引用自 Brother Phobos：

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

If he was paralyzed, Argel Tal would have said so whilst talking to Xaphen. Argel Tal would have referenced him being out of armor, and that the human got the jump on him. If it were so. This was merely an extremely lucky human, and an incredibly unlucky Chaplain.

not out of armor, but lacking armor parts. why is it important to mention it if scenario's version you describe make the event impossible to happen? if i tell you that i flew to japan, is it reasonable to assume that i grew wings if i don't mention a plane? no-

So tell me, which armor part on the Chaplain protects the throat? Because to me, it seems like the primary body armor. The part the power pack attaches to. The power pack needed to run the armor. Ergo, if he didnt "have an armor part", he wouldn't have the armor period.

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

引用自 Brother Phobos：

how would a firstborn be wounded by such a negligible tyranid force he fought beforehand? how is it a "miracle" if that carnifex barely had any support?

Firstborn wounded due to the fall from orbit without a jump pack, we can clearly see in the cutscene his armor doesn't lock up. We then see him take a serious enough shot from a Warrior that causes him to be temporarily stunned and fall off a ledge. These two are some heavy wounds. Then there's taking into consideration the living ammo. A Tyranids weapon shoots an Astartes, then the ammo either eats through armor, or crawls around and exploits weakspots. Then in the arena area, he's repeatedly attacked by Warriors/Termagaunts/Hormagaunts, all of which slowly chisel away at him. Before then the Carnifex appears.

Any marine who was unnamed and/or was wearing a helmet (because as we all know. If you have a name, and don't have a helmet. You have plot armor), would have been slaughtered. Being able to survive shows how resilient and tough Titus is.

firstborn wounded by a fall that's impossible to wound him, auto-reactive locking that somehow isn't auto-reactive, and even if, having biology conditioned to deal and take speed of sound impacts, then a negligible amount of tyranids to do what you said effectively, and then a carnifex with barely any support. a fresh firstborn would indeed be slaughtered by that, but only in a blatant activist propaganda.

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

引用自 Brother Phobos：

not out of armor, but lacking armor parts. why is it important to mention it if scenario's version you describe make the event impossible to happen? if i tell you that i flew to japan, is it reasonable to assume that i grew wings if i don't mention a plane? no-

So tell me, which armor part on the Chaplain protects the throat? Because to me, it seems like the primary body armor. The part the power pack attaches to. The power pack needed to run the armor. Ergo, if he didnt "have an armor part", he wouldn't have the armor period.

if he had a hole in the neck, it doesn't mean that the entire primary body armor was gone, and you know it well. unless you make a point that his entire primary armor would have to be gone for his neck to be exposed. is this some sort of dishonest use of logic?

[The_Dipl0mat]

引用自 Brother Phobos：

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

Firstborn wounded due to the fall from orbit without a jump pack, we can clearly see in the cutscene his armor doesn't lock up. We then see him take a serious enough shot from a Warrior that causes him to be temporarily stunned and fall off a ledge. These two are some heavy wounds. Then there's taking into consideration the living ammo. A Tyranids weapon shoots an Astartes, then the ammo either eats through armor, or crawls around and exploits weakspots. Then in the arena area, he's repeatedly attacked by Warriors/Termagaunts/Hormagaunts, all of which slowly chisel away at him. Before then the Carnifex appears.

Any marine who was unnamed and/or was wearing a helmet (because as we all know. If you have a name, and don't have a helmet. You have plot armor), would have been slaughtered. Being able to survive shows how resilient and tough Titus is.

firstborn wounded by a fall that's impossible to wound him, auto-reactive locking that somehow isn't auto-reactive, and even if, having biology conditioned to deal and take speed of sound impacts, then a negligible amount of tyranids to do what you said effectively, and then a carnifex with barely any support. a fresh firstborn would indeed be slaughtered by that, but only in your blatant propaganda.

Okay so, even assuming the lock somehow worked. There's a really, really fun thing called transfer of energy. While the armor does have dampers that take a lot of the energy, a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ is still going to into the marine from that height. Then there's the extensive damage multiple warriors will do to a marine, as they're meant to combat Marines. Any marine going through what Titus did, solo. With no support. Armed with only basic wargear, would find it difficult to survive. You can try to argue against lore as much as you like, but it's the blatant truth.

[The_Dipl0mat]

引用自 Brother Phobos：

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

So tell me, which armor part on the Chaplain protects the throat? Because to me, it seems like the primary body armor. The part the power pack attaches to. The power pack needed to run the armor. Ergo, if he didnt "have an armor part", he wouldn't have the armor period.

if he had a hole in the neck, it doesn't mean that the entire primary body armor was gone, and you know it well. unless you make a point that his entire primary armor would have to be gone for his neck to be exposed. is this some sort of dishonest use of logic?

Apologies, I was confused by the phrasing of "lacking armor parts", as "damaged armor" and "armor parts" are both severely different. Either way, it's still a huge stroke of luck that the human was able to kill the Chaplain like that. And tbh makes it even more myth like. A valiant human defending his land, exploits a ♥♥♥♥♥ in an Astartes armor and guts his neck with a spear

[Aminon]

boring

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

引用自 Brother Phobos：

firstborn wounded by a fall that's impossible to wound him, auto-reactive locking that somehow isn't auto-reactive, and even if, having biology conditioned to deal and take speed of sound impacts, then a negligible amount of tyranids to do what you said effectively, and then a carnifex with barely any support. a fresh firstborn would indeed be slaughtered by that, but only in your blatant propaganda.

Okay so, even assuming the lock somehow worked. There's a really, really fun thing called transfer of energy. While the armor does have dampers that take a lot of the energy, a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ is still going to into the marine from that height. Then there's the extensive damage multiple warriors will do to a marine, as they're meant to combat Marines. Any marine going through what Titus did, solo. With no support. Armed with only basic wargear, would find it difficult to survive. You can try to argue against lore as much as you like, but it's the blatant truth.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of energy from subsonic speed that won't do nothing, as firstborn is conditioned to take even more of it from supersonic impacts unscathed. warriors are meant to combat marines indeed, but with a proper support from the swarm unlike what we have in SM2 prologue. nothing hard to survive for a fresh firstborn. how is it me who'd argue against the lore, when you are the one who constantly misinterprets it to portray events happening in impossible ways?

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

引用自 Brother Phobos：

if he had a hole in the neck, it doesn't mean that the entire primary body armor was gone, and you know it well. unless you make a point that his entire primary armor would have to be gone for his neck to be exposed. is this some sort of dishonest use of logic?

Apologies, I was confused by the phrasing of "lacking armor parts", as "damaged armor" and "armor parts" are both severely different. Either way, it's still a huge stroke of luck that the human was able to kill the Chaplain like that. And tbh makes it even more myth like. A valiant human defending his land, exploits a ♥♥♥♥♥ in an Astartes armor and guts his neck with a spear

indeed. a mortal landing a killing blow on a firstborn is a mythical event. in addition, not any firstborn but a chaplain.

[The_Dipl0mat]

引用自 Brother Phobos：

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

Okay so, even assuming the lock somehow worked. There's a really, really fun thing called transfer of energy. While the armor does have dampers that take a lot of the energy, a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ is still going to into the marine from that height. Then there's the extensive damage multiple warriors will do to a marine, as they're meant to combat Marines. Any marine going through what Titus did, solo. With no support. Armed with only basic wargear, would find it difficult to survive. You can try to argue against lore as much as you like, but it's the blatant truth.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of energy that won't do nothing, as firstborn is conditioned to take even more of it unscathed. warriors are meant to combat marines indeed, but with a proper support from the swarm unlike what we have in SM2 prologue. nothing hard to survive for a fresh firstborn. how is it me who'd argue against the lore, when you are the one who constantly misinterprets to make impossible things happen?

In the prologue, there was 100% proper support.

So far in the prologue we see Titus being temporarily disoeriented upon landing, reaching for his weapon clumsily. Showing the fall did have an effect. The first encounter is trivial with less than 10. So we can discount that.

Then the second contains a full "unit" which Titus handles with ease. Then there's 2-3 more encounters of the same type in rapid succession. Then 1v1s a warrior with average difficulty. Then we see the first ranged gaunts. A few small packs along the way, then a full unit. Then we start slowly getting multiple fights containing one warrior and a unit of melee gaunts.

The majority of fights then follow a unit of gaunts led by a warrior within the facility. Then above the arena while waiting for the virus bomb to launch, Titus fights hordes of Tyranids from two directions. After the launch, we get a cutscene of gaunts attacking Titus which he handles well at first, but he leaves himself open to being attack from the rear twice. As he dispatches the second back jumper, a Warrior shoots him while he's in movement, causing damage as he falls to the Arena. We can see that the Warrior did damage, as he seems to need a second to catch his breath. It can also then be assumed that the Gaunts that mounted him indeed did do damage. He then fights multiple units with warrior support. Which lasts for several minutes and shows him getting increasingly more and more damaged.

So we have a marine locked in an arena, forced to fight a seemingly endless wave, who's taken damage from at the very least a Warrior shot that hit him in the side underneath the right arm. Only after being sufficiently worn down by about five warriors, eighty or so gaunts, and I want to say twenty ranged gaunts, did he actually end up facing the Carnifex.

Which then made use of its spine attack for range to deal damage to Titus, with melee, alongside receiving multiple packs of gaunts for support. All while having limited ammunition on top of that. And we even see in the cutscene the stab severely wounds Titus, and had he had any weaponry at his disposal he would have killed it.

[DrEคD LØrD]

引用自 Aminon：

boring

Sure bro, as the GW said "you won't be missed"

[DrEคD LØrD]

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

引用自 Brother Phobos：

if he had a hole in the neck, it doesn't mean that the entire primary body armor was gone, and you know it well. unless you make a point that his entire primary armor would have to be gone for his neck to be exposed. is this some sort of dishonest use of logic?

Apologies, I was confused by the phrasing of "lacking armor parts", as "damaged armor" and "armor parts" are both severely different. Either way, it's still a huge stroke of luck that the human was able to kill the Chaplain like that. And tbh makes it even more myth like. A valiant human defending his land, exploits a ♥♥♥♥♥ in an Astartes armor and guts his neck with a spear

Yes man, the lucky is always relevant, but as I said, Lucky if portraid in a bad way is very sus. People will have questions.
Same goes for movies, nobody fights and misinterprits the lore of LOTR for example (aside that one fugly corp named Amazon) then gaslights its audience into believing piss is rain and comes out of it clean.

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

引用自 Brother Phobos：

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of energy that won't do nothing, as firstborn is conditioned to take even more of it unscathed. warriors are meant to combat marines indeed, but with a proper support from the swarm unlike what we have in SM2 prologue. nothing hard to survive for a fresh firstborn. how is it me who'd argue against the lore, when you are the one who constantly misinterprets to make impossible things happen?

In the prologue, there was 100% proper support.

So far in the prologue we see Titus being temporarily disoeriented upon landing, reaching for his weapon clumsily. Showing the fall did have an effect. The first encounter is trivial with less than 10. So we can discount that.

Then the second contains a full "unit" which Titus handles with ease. Then there's 2-3 more encounters of the same type in rapid succession. Then 1v1s a warrior with average difficulty. Then we see the first ranged gaunts. A few small packs along the way, then a full unit. Then we start slowly getting multiple fights containing one warrior and a unit of melee gaunts.

The majority of fights then follow a unit of gaunts led by a warrior within the facility. Then above the arena while waiting for the virus bomb to launch, Titus fights hordes of Tyranids from two directions. After the launch, we get a cutscene of gaunts attacking Titus which he handles well at first, but he leaves himself open to being attack from the rear twice. As he dispatches the second back jumper, a Warrior shoots him while he's in movement, causing damage as he falls to the Arena. We can see that the Warrior did damage, as he seems to need a second to catch his breath. It can also then be assumed that the Gaunts that mounted him indeed did do damage. He then fights multiple units with warrior support. Which lasts for several minutes and shows him getting increasingly more and more damaged.

So we have a marine locked in an arena, forced to fight a seemingly endless wave, who's taken damage from at the very least a Warrior shot that hit him in the side underneath the right arm. Only after being sufficiently worn down by about five warriors, eighty or so gaunts, and I want to say twenty ranged gaunts, did he actually end up facing the Carnifex.

Which then made use of its spine attack for range to deal damage to Titus, with melee, alongside receiving multiple packs of gaunts for support. All while having limited ammunition on top of that. And we even see in the cutscene the stab severely wounds Titus, and had he had any weaponry at his disposal he would have killed it.

100% proper support? certainly not for taking on a firstborn. and certainly not an outstanding one.
yes, the prologue showed him being hindered by things a firstborn shouldn't be hindered by, which proves how much of a firstborn discreditation it all is.

[The_Dipl0mat]

引用自 DrEคD LØrD：

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

Apologies, I was confused by the phrasing of "lacking armor parts", as "damaged armor" and "armor parts" are both severely different. Either way, it's still a huge stroke of luck that the human was able to kill the Chaplain like that. And tbh makes it even more myth like. A valiant human defending his land, exploits a ♥♥♥♥♥ in an Astartes armor and guts his neck with a spear

Yes man, the lucky is always relevant, but as I said, Lucky if portraid in a bad way is very sus. People will have questions.
Same goes for movies, nobody fights and misinterprits the lore of LOTR for example (aside that one fugly corp named Amazon) then gaslights its audience into believing piss is rain and comes out of it clean.

Luckily (badum-tsh), the "luck" in hand for this game plays in the favor of the protag. And it's showed in a rather good way which only people who seem to discredit lore references/tabletop references have issue with

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

引用自 The_Dipl0mat：

引用自 DrEคD LØrD：

Yes man, the lucky is always relevant, but as I said, Lucky if portraid in a bad way is very sus. People will have questions.
Same goes for movies, nobody fights and misinterprits the lore of LOTR for example (aside that one fugly corp named Amazon) then gaslights its audience into believing piss is rain and comes out of it clean.

Luckily (badum-tsh), the "luck" in hand for this game plays in the favor of the protag. And it's showed in a rather good way which only people who seem to discredit lore references/tabletop references have issue with

surely luck plays in his favor to discredit firstborn even more. such a lore discreditor as yourself have no issue with the prologue, and it is me who has issue with it.