injustice to Space Marine 1 and Firstborn

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

prologue

the prologue was a blatant jab at Firstborn (and thru which also Space Marine 1), pushing the message that it takes a single tyranid warrior to kill a Firstborn, and that an outstanding Firstborn like Titus (who bested such a powerful traitor Firstborn as Nemeroth despite being worn down by his rubric marines) can be defeated by some carnifex just because he fought a couple of hormagaunts and tyranid warriors beforehand.

these jabs were thrown to show how Primaris lack such inadequacies Firstborn have... inadequacies which were clearly not present in Space Marine 1, and were made up in Space Marine 2. i understand that GW has a need to push Primaris on top of Firstborn, but making up Firstborn inadequacies that didn't exist just to achieve it feels disrespectful, inappropriate, and unnecessary. why not highball Primaris abilities and leave Firstborn as they were instead of downplaying them?

jabbing at Firstborn to promote Primaris

not giving Primaris such a crucial survivability tool as swordsman's zeal perk Firstborn have in Space Marine 1 doesn't exactly feel like highballing Primaris, but rather another tool of retconning Firstborn into being horrible. not to mention how the player is forced to play with Primaris bots (if not having 3 players) which are absolutely useless despite being "so superior to Firstborn", which further pushes Firstborn downplaying narrative. somehow the great superior Primaris have to spend so much time to kill a hormagaunt (because of how adequately weak their anemic strikes are), and somehow guardsmen (literally NORMAL humans) constantly win in close combat with them with their "dive back and shoot" animation, further jabbing at Firstborn thru Primaris performance. the game's campaign also pushes the message that Primaris instantly die from an explosion that's too weak to tear them apart or even lift them off the ground. you can even notice dead Primaris marine (or once even 2) without a single tyranid corpse laying around. it's like the game says "sure, Primaris are quite weak... but at least they are stronger than FIRSTBORN HAHAHA AM I RIGHT?".

what feels like yet another jab at Firstborn is how Thousand Sons (chaos marines) are so immensely weak in comparison to tyranids and daemons. it seems like Saber Interactive is pushing the message that 3 Primaris marines can take on dozens of Firstborn... especially considering how weak Thousand Sons sorcerers are to them, which supposed to be the most powerful of all sorcerers.


(it's all part of a broader point i made in a thread here)


praise the Emperor

[LeiLaGorIlla]

Carnifex kill space marines all the time in lore. It's not surprising that he dies from this, you could be the best & still do a mistake that get you killed. Also Carnifex are killing machines, that are insanely fast & lethal.

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

Originally posted by LeiLaGorIlla:

Carnifex kill space marines all the time in lore. It's not surprising that he dies from this, you could be the best & still do a mistake that get you killed. Also Carnifex are killing machines, that are insanely fast & lethal.

yes, they absolutely do, but obviously not with so little support

[Oku]

“It’s an insult to the inferior versions of the super soldier to portray the superior versions as being superior”

And I’m sure you were very upset about the short story when a single Custodes wiped out an entire drop force of Primaris because they were tainted by chaos, showing that the Custodes are vastly superior in every way to the space marines.

[Eightball]

Why do you even care about firstborn? They are gone mate. GW have phased them out, there is very little left and those aren't gonna be long for the bin either.

Go to the tabletop and see how many space marines it takes to kill a carnifex.

Go live in the past if you want, but Primaris are the future. Firstborn are gone. No more. Phased out.

Maybe try 30k if you don't like it. Firstborn are an antiquated, outdated, redundant relic of the past surplus to requirements and are being got rid of. Deal with it.

Primaris always were the clearly superior next stage in Marine evolution. What is your problem with that exactly? Getting butt hurt over something being stronger than your beloved firstborn? Because that's the entire point of them, to be stronger than the Firstborn, lol.

[Mints]

Maybe you should keep playing the game, because there's a voiced line about how Titus once took down a Carnifex 1v1 with a Bolt Pistol. He was defeated at the start of the game because:
1) He fell out of a Corvus Blackstar
2) He just rampaged through dozens, possibly hundreds of Tyranids to get there.
3) He was shot and stabbed repeatedly.
4) He was surrounded, trapped, low on ammo, and spitting up blood.

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

Originally posted by Oku:

“It’s an insult to the inferior versions of the super soldier to portray the superior versions as being superior”

And I’m sure you were very upset about the short story when a single Custodes wiped out an entire drop force of Primaris because they were tainted by chaos, showing that the Custodes are vastly superior in every way to the space marines.

you thinking this seems to be the proof that you've missed my point.

my problem is not about Primaris being superior, but about HOW Space Marine 2 makes them superior by downplaying Firstborn from what they were in Space Marine 1, instead of actually introducing better feats in comparison to Firstborn in SM1.

[Eightball]

Originally posted by Brother Phobos:

Originally posted by Oku:

“It’s an insult to the inferior versions of the super soldier to portray the superior versions as being superior”

And I’m sure you were very upset about the short story when a single Custodes wiped out an entire drop force of Primaris because they were tainted by chaos, showing that the Custodes are vastly superior in every way to the space marines.

you thinking this seems to be the proof that you've missed my point.

my problem is not about Primaris being superior, but about HOW Space Marine 2 makes them superior by downplaying Firstborn from what they were in Space Marine 1, instead of actually introducing better feats in comparison to Firstborn in SM1.

You are delusional if you think being beaten by a carnifex is a jab at firstborn, lmao. That thing would kill anything short of a dreadnaught and even then that fight would be somewhat fair, 50/50. You clearly don't have a clue about actual lore.

But yeah, they put them in game and let you kill them with 3 people. It's in the name of fun. Who cares? You wanna just fight tyranid warriors 1v1 the entire game in order to keep it lore accurate to space marine power? Even the Lictor should have wiped the squad, so what? Would be kinda boring if you died to 10 gaunts, because that's what would happen in lore.

Accept that this is a game m8. 10 gaunts or 1 or 2 warriors, would kill almost any space marine in lore or tabletop. This seems to be what you want to happen. No thanks.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by Brother Phobos:

Originally posted by LeiLaGorIlla:

Carnifex kill space marines all the time in lore. It's not surprising that he dies from this, you could be the best & still do a mistake that get you killed. Also Carnifex are killing machines, that are insanely fast & lethal.

yes, they absolutely do, but obviously not with so little support

No, even with no support at all. Carnifex is basically the anti-tank variety of tyranids. They are the equivalent of full on tanks. They DESTROY Space Marines. Especially in close combat.

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

Originally posted by Mints:

Maybe you should keep playing the game, because there's a voiced line about how Titus once took down a Carnifex 1v1 with a Bolt Pistol. He was defeated at the start of the game because:
1) He fell out of a Corvus Blackstar
2) He just rampaged through dozens, possibly hundreds of Tyranids to get there.
3) He was shot and stabbed repeatedly.
4) He was surrounded, trapped, low on ammo, and spitting up blood.

considering what happened in prologue, that carniifex probably had next to no support from tyranids.

tyranid forces he faced before and during that fight weren't that much of a deal in comparison to what he faced before fighting Nemeroth.

how does falling from corvus blackstar supposed to do anything to him if Astartes are made to turn themselves into ballistic missiles with jump packs slamming them into the ground with speeds far exceeding terminal velocity?

[Eightball]

Originally posted by Brother Phobos:

tyranid forces he faced before and during that fight weren't that much of a deal in comparison to what he faced before fighting Nemeroth.

how does falling from corvus blackstar supposed to do anything to him if Astartes are made to turn themselves into ballistic missiles with jump packs slamming them into the ground with speeds far exceeding terminal velocity?

You realise you can trip off a kerb and twist your ankle if you land incorrectly, yeah? One of these scenarios is controlled, the other is not. Land the wrong way and you are gonna hurt yourself. You never really thought this through, did you? Just jumped straight to wild conclusions with 0 imagination.

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

Originally posted by Eightball:

Why do you even care about firstborn? They are gone mate. GW have phased them out, there is very little left and those aren't gonna be long for the bin either.

Go to the tabletop and see how many space marines it takes to kill a carnifex.

Go live in the past if you want, but Primaris are the future. Firstborn are gone. No more. Phased out.

Maybe try 30k if you don't like it. Firstborn are an antiquated, outdated, redundant relic of the past surplus to requirements and are being got rid of. Deal with it.

Primaris always were the clearly superior next stage in Marine evolution. What is your problem with that exactly? Getting butt hurt over something being stronger than your beloved firstborn? Because that's the entire point of them, to be stronger than the Firstborn, lol.

why'd i go to such a vast source of Astartes lore discreditation as tabletop to check anything, other to witness how disrespected it is in the name of making more figurines sells?

all I'm saying is that downplaying Firstborn from what they were in the past is not making a better kind of Astartes, just turning the old ones into a worse kind. in order to truly make a better kind of Astartes, they need to show Primaris feats that exceed what Firstborn had.

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

Originally posted by Eightball:

Originally posted by Brother Phobos:

tyranid forces he faced before and during that fight weren't that much of a deal in comparison to what he faced before fighting Nemeroth.

how does falling from corvus blackstar supposed to do anything to him if Astartes are made to turn themselves into ballistic missiles with jump packs slamming them into the ground with speeds far exceeding terminal velocity?

You realise you can trip off a kerb and twist your ankle if you land incorrectly, yeah? One of these scenarios is controlled, the other is not. Land the wrong way and you are gonna hurt yourself. You never really thought this through, did you? Just jumped straight to wild conclusions with 0 imagination.

not 0 imagination, but actual understanding of Astartes superhuman agility that gives them way more than enough time to make themselves land correctly.

[Eightball]

Originally posted by Brother Phobos:

Originally posted by Eightball:

You realise you can trip off a kerb and twist your ankle if you land incorrectly, yeah? One of these scenarios is controlled, the other is not. Land the wrong way and you are gonna hurt yourself. You never really thought this through, did you? Just jumped straight to wild conclusions with 0 imagination.

not 0 imagination, but actual understanding of Astartes superhuman agility that gives them way more than enough time to make themselves land correctly.

That would require something like, you know, what you said before, a jetpack to help you control yourself. Skydivers use winglets and wingsuits to be able to orient themselves, you can't just do it with your arms, the ♥♥♥♥ you think you are, a bird? You realise how much weight that backpack is putting on the back of the marine? lol.

[BROTHER PHOBOS]

Originally posted by Eightball:

Originally posted by Brother Phobos:

not 0 imagination, but actual understanding of Astartes superhuman agility that gives them way more than enough time to make themselves land correctly.

That would require something like, you know, what you said before, a jetpack to help you control yourself. Skydivers use winglets and wingsuits to be able to orient themselves, you can't just do it with your arms, the ♥♥♥♥ you think you are, a bird? You realise how much weight that backpack is putting on the back of the marine? lol.

many do not realize, but "vents" on Astartes' backpacks are actually stabilizing jets that can work for turning themselves while falling.

also saying that terminal velocity impact with dirt could be potentially strong enough to cause something like this to an Astartes is a very bold claim.

[King Arthur]

Originally posted by Brother Phobos:

prologue

the prologue was a blatant jab at Firstborn (and thru which also Space Marine 1), pushing the message that it takes a single tyranid to kill a Firstborn, and that an outstanding Firstborn like Titus (who bested such a powerful traitor Firstborn as Nemeroth despite being worn down by his rubric marines) can be defeated by some carnifex just because he fought a couple of hormagaunts and tyranid warriors beforehand.

these jabs were thrown to show how Primaris lack such inadequacies Firstborn have... inadequacies which were clearly not present in Space Marine 1, and were made up in Space Marine 2. i understand that GW has a need to push Primaris on top of Firstborn, but making up Firstborn inadequacies that didn't exist just to achieve it feels disrespectful, inappropriate, and unnecessary. why not highball Primaris abilities and leave Firstborn as they were instead of downplaying them?

jabbing at Firstborn to promote Primaris

not giving Primaris such a crucial survivability tool as swordsman's zeal perk Firstborn have in Space Marine 1 doesn't exactly feel like highballing Primaris, but rather another tool of retconning Firstborn into being horrible. not to mention how the player is forced to play with 2 Primaris bots which are absolutely useless despite being "so superior to Firstborn", which further pushes Firstborn downplaying narrative. somehow the great superior Primaris have to spend so much time to kill a hormagaunt (because of how adequately weak their anemic strikes are), and somehow guardsmen (literally NORMAL humans) constantly win in close combat with them with their "dive back and shoot" animation, further jabbing at Firstborn thru Primaris performance. it's like the game says "sure, Primaris are quite weak... but at least they are stronger than FIRSTBORN HAHAHA AM I RIGHT?".

what feels like yet another jab at Firstborn is how Thousand Sons (chaos marines) are so immensely weak in comparison to tyranids and daemons. it seems like Saber Interactive is pushing the message that 3 Primaris marines can take on dozens of Firstborn...


(it's all part of a broader point i made in a thread here)


praise the Emperor :Die:

What are you on about? He fights of a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of Tyranind solo, with no backup at all, and then gets finished by one of the single most dangerous bioforms the swarm could throw at him. If anything it showed us just how utterly BADASS even the firstborn are. And those chaos marines are RUBRICS (IE basically brainded drones in Thousands Sons armor), not regular firstborn. And even THEN you rampaged through them as a firstborn yourself in the first game, by your logic we should never have been able to succeed in the first game at all once the chaos forces show up. You are just complaining to complain mate. Come off it.