Darktide PvE is more fun than Space marine 2's

[<#FF69B4>Robin ;3]

I feel more invincible and powerful as a reject, a literal cannon fodder prisoner, than a 8'' tall ripped behemoth man in this games PvE mode.

What can be done about it?

Enemies just feel way too tanky. The standard ammo calibre round for bolters is .75... a round that when fired by non space marines does serious damage to arm and shoulder of those firing the weapon. Yet these space bugs eat them for breakfast. Shield-bearing Tzaangors are way too tanky when being hit by a space marine, in comparison to space marines they're tiny, yet they don't recoil at all from a space marines blows, and can take multiple melee hits to their shield.

You go down way too easily and the stupid armour regen over health system doesn't help, I don't know what was broken about the health on execution system from SM1. I really do not like this tiny slither of armour you get back on execution instead.

[Niks]

İlk olarak Lady von Titz tarafından gönderildi:

Niks you do realise that's how guardsmen snipers were taking out space marines, can't remember the 40K book it's in, ah I found it, it's called Dark Apostle its a known weakness of all space marine armours, not to mention a chaos marine in other book stating the best way to take out a loyalist space marines is to just wait for them to fight without a helmet, one bolt round and done, also Ogryns are known for killing space marines again there's lore on Ogryn killing space marines, also different companies yes, Fatshark eventually got their guns up to par, yes Darktide's/Fatshark have a two year head start, and yet Saber hasn't even started to consider buffing Primaris weapons, check the complaints on this SM2 forum there are number complaints that all Primaris weapons are under powered and the 'nids are overly tanky/bullet spongey.

I do realize that expecting games to replicate staff from books identically is stupidity, as well as having a book and a movie identical to each other.
I do realize that I have my own brain so I can play the game myself and decide by myself whether game meets or not franchise expectations, instead of following the crying crowed. They can have a skill issue, they can be fans of other genres so it is hard for them to get used to it, they might be unfamiliar with lore itself and many other reasons might be the foundation of their feedback up to just a bad mood this day.
I do realize that Warhammer lore books has dozens of examples when authors describing same stories, characters, gear and weapons differently, what actually the main concern of many newcomers, cause it is hard for them to understand where is the source of truth and what is just unspecified. Meaning you might've read some books but it seems you don't understand what you've read and how they actually are qualified - all of those stories are "legends" and "rumors" which covers the problem with controversial descriptions and it was confirmed by GW as far as I remember.
I do realize that GW has control over the content brought into the game so you basically arguing with their decisions and that is stupid. At least to have this conversation over there, in steam comments with random players.
I do realize that you lacking attention and completely lost the track of what you're trying to prove, cause you arguing with me also about Ogryns, where I agreed with you in the first place. And you're comparing different gear performing against different enemies with what we have in SM2. It sounds like "Hey, why this water isn't sweet? I've seen a bottle in a store which had title "Sprite" and it was sweet! You have a wrong water!!!" Stupidity and obsession to have a dispute to drag some attention. Calm down. Address you concerns to GW or at least game devs instead.

[OldSnake]

İlk olarak Greybishop tarafından gönderildi:

For me, I think the TTK for space marine weaponry is too long. The breaker shotgun in Helldivers 2 kills small/medium targets in 1-3 hits but the bolt gun firing explosive Redbull cans needs way more even with headshots. I get that Space Marine 2 and Helldivers 2 are two different games, but it makes being a Helldiver feel so much more powerful when the basic weaponry are efficient.

If your bolt rifle is relic tier, a head shot will kill a gaunt with one bullet, you just need to have the right weapon and you also have to aim...

[Kaschperle]

darktide has lots of power creep and is way to easy cause of complainers like you but even then sm2 lethal is far from hard it's managable in a group. In darktide atm you can solo missions maelstrom mostly (i walked duo with a friend and 2 bots was extremely easy.)

[westlich]

İlk olarak Smasher tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak westlich tarafından gönderildi:

Darktide have more in-depth skill trees, better weapon systems, wide variety of specials and better balance. No doubt they have more experience compare to saber and are suppose to do a good job.

And saber, from the very first day people are complaining about bolts being trash and after almost two month of release, nothing yet being accomplished. I do not know how hard could that be.

All my friends went back to darktide after patch 4.0 dropped, they said they are not interested in it due to the bad balance, They spend thousands of hours on vermintide and darktide, we were expecting something comparable but no, darktide is certainly the better game in current stage.

More in-depth skill trees - only one is viable and fun to use.
Better weapon systems - two years of swedish holidays to change random gacha system to linear gacha system, weapons still lvl capped.

Wide variety specials - half of them missing sounds since release, mutant still can throw you through textures and you wont be able to TP yourself out (SM2 have this feature since first day btw)
Fatshark spent 6 months to figure out how to fix dogs.
Karnak brothers - shield clowns
9 minute train missions - another captain shield clown reskin
Poorly ported vermintide abomination as new boss.

Better balance - non stop nerfs, and zero clues how to please players. Took 4 months to figure out how to make plasma fun weapon just to nerf it into ground one week later.

The ever-shrinking player base is proof of this.

Keep seething, coping and shilling for same skin full priced recolors. And please enjoy your 3003 and 2014 errors accompanied with lua crashes every single patch.

I would say to you sm2 is some new experience, but for my friends, darktide is certainly more enjoyable compare to what sm2 can provide now.

[Niks]

İlk olarak westlich tarafından gönderildi:

I would say to you sm2 is some new experience, but for my friends, darktide is certainly more enjoyable compare to what sm2 can provide now.

That's the only correct statement and very valid one. Those games are different and from different genres. Everyone picks what they prefer, cause it's matter of taste.
Meaning, stating that "Game X" is better than "Game Y" which developed differently, by different people with different budget, in different genres and being released to the market for different periods of time - is pointless.
At least, if you want to compare them somehow - compare them both in their states "in 2 months after release"... and being a person who leveled everything and unlocked all achievements during that period in Darktide, I can guarantee you... it won't stand a chance in any comparison with SM2, cause I remember the "fun" I had those days by grinding RNG with RNG for RNG while drifting among absence of balance, bugs, tons of typos in descriptions, missing mechanics and literally inaccessible content due to implementation mistakes. Like grinding for hours missions which you cannot pick and you have to wait for random rotations in order to get specific map with specific event going on on a specific difficulty to meet specific random conditions to kill specific randomly spawning mobs to get the counter up to dozens or hundreds.... and all of this just to find out that "hey, this achievement is currently bugged and until it will be fixed you are stuck at 99 out of 100 kills". And do you know what happened next in some of those cases? Did they fixed that and you was provided with your reward after killing the rest of mobs required? Nope, this achievement just gets... withdrawn... gone... it never happened... you didn't see that, my dear friend. :D

[Fummelwilli]

SM2 has huge balance issues and anyone, who denies it, either willingly turns a blind eye or does that on purpose. Moreover these issues exist pretty much since launch and only got amplified by the recent patch.

For example the melee weapons division into balance, fencing and block might be a nice idea on paper, in reality and in conjunction with the game's other systems block-weapons are just useless and this is there since launch.

Bolter weapons in PvE are pretty much trash and this is a direct consequence of their design. The original concept of Bolters in SM2 is, that they can penetrate multiple targets and thus shred horde enemies, while dealing minor damage to everything around it. In Darktide this would work, because the player character is about the same height as the enemies. However in SM2 you are much larger, which makes lining up shots to penetrate multiple enemies impossible unless you are very far away. To combat this Saber would have to give Bolter-rounds either an AoE (works with the lore - HE-rounds) or let bullets ricochet between them instead of penetrating them in a straight line (not that lore friendly). Since release nothing was done in that regard, which makes you wonder if they understand their own system.

Lastly there are huge difference in between classes. If you're in a group with an Assault and a Bullwark and you get multiple Zoanthropes you are pretty much done for on lethal, if you don't have Kraks or unless you dodge roll to the next elevator to skip them entirely, since they drain too much ammo.

Then there is the Tatician, which is the only class, that can fully replenish ammo, to such an extend, that you could take away ALL ammo boxes and it is the only class, which still would be fine. Compared to the ammo economy on a LasFusil, where you have to fulfill a whole set of requirements not to replenish but to keep the shot you just fired is insane (excluding the low health gun switch bug - if it is still present). Just to name a few.

Lastly there is this new mechanics for armor regeneration, which is completely missing the point. First of it's taken right out of Darktide and turned into a crude mockery of itself. There it functions as a buff, in SM2 you get a fundamental survivability function taken away from you, while you have classes, which are specifically designed to either go deep in (Assault) or to stay out of it (Sniper). You pair that, with the huge AoE sizes especially of Tyranides and you are pretty much guaranted to be out of coherency, unless your team coordiantes dodge movement via voice...good luck with that in random groups.

There is so much stuff, that doesn't add up in the grand scheme of things and the reason, why the 3.0 patch was better received, was because it indeed made the game easier, thus veiling the underlying issues reagarding these basic game systems. Changing numbers might help in short terms, but in the long run the weapons, the skills and the survivability needs an overhaul. Essentially the game is Darktide release all over, I hoped Saber looked closely at Fatshark and learned from their mistakes, obviously they didn't. Let's hope they have the same motivation to fix this like FS did,

[Teran]

İlk olarak The Darkened Soul tarafından gönderildi:

Okay, for those (as in this one tagged here) who don't seem to understand something basic within the lore...

Melta weapons, grenades or weapons, turrets, and or whatever is Melta, fires a wave that is hotter than the sun.

Lore wise it's more of a beam than a wave. The rules do not use flamer templates for melta weapons nor do they have any aoe, even the melta charges.

İlk olarak The Darkened Soul tarafından gönderildi:

The Boltors fire a .75 caliber round... This thing is the following:
- Jet-assisted
- High Explosive
- Armor Piercing
HEAPJA as the acronym would go.

You're not even spelling "bolter" correctly but want to lecture us on how powerful it is? Well the flaw here aside from your poor spelling is that we aren't using them to shoot soldiers wearing level 4 plate, we're using them to shoot hyper evolved aliens designed to be hard to kill. In fact when we do shoot humans with the equivalent of modern body armor with a bolter in this game, they explode.

İlk olarak The Darkened Soul tarafından gönderildi:

Enemies in this game, even the Gaunts, DO NOT EVEN FLINCH from a single shot from this. Mind you, these rounds would EASILY shred through them, yet it takes MULTIPLE HEAD SHOTS to take just ONE down on Ruthless.

If it's taking you multiple head shots to kill a gaunt, you aren't getting headshots, you just think you are.

İlk olarak The Darkened Soul tarafından gönderildi:

The Boltor weapons (short of the Heavy Boltor) DO NOT operate, nor do they feel like a Boltor. It more so feels like we're shooting them with an Auto-gun rather than a damn Boltor.

If you were shooting with an autogun against gaunts you probably wouldn't even be scratching them. Lasguns barely do. Bolters on the other hand shred them.

İlk olarak The Darkened Soul tarafından gönderildi:

Now, all things considered, the game needs some massive balancing (AND NOT the "balancing" that's been done on the account of the sweats input thus far).

The only thing this game needs is crybabies who post too much in the forums to go play the game more so they'll get better and have less to cry about. It doesn't matter what difficulty you're playing on, if you're not landing head shots and parrying, you need to play more until you have the ability to do so.

[Disorder Minimi]

İlk olarak Fummelwilli tarafından gönderildi:

SM2 has huge balance issues and anyone, who denies it, either willingly turns a blind eye or does that on purpose. Moreover these issues exist pretty much since launch and only got amplified by the recent patch.

For example the melee weapons division into balance, fencing and block might be a nice idea on paper, in reality and in conjunction with the game's other systems block-weapons are just useless and this is there since launch.

Bolter weapons in PvE are pretty much trash and this is a direct consequence of their design. The original concept of Bolters in SM2 is, that they can penetrate multiple targets and thus shred horde enemies, while dealing minor damage to everything around it. In Darktide this would work, because the player character is about the same height as the enemies. However in SM2 you are much larger, which makes lining up shots to penetrate multiple enemies impossible unless you are very far away. To combat this Saber would have to give Bolter-rounds either an AoE (works with the lore - HE-rounds) or let bullets ricochet between them instead of penetrating them in a straight line (not that lore friendly). Since release nothing was done in that regard, which makes you wonder if they understand their own system.

Lastly there are huge difference in between classes. If you're in a group with an Assault and a Bullwark and you get multiple Zoanthropes you are pretty much done for on lethal, if you don't have Kraks or unless you dodge roll to the next elevator to skip them entirely, since they drain too much ammo.

Then there is the Tatician, which is the only class, that can fully replenish ammo, to such an extend, that you could take away ALL ammo boxes and it is the only class, which still would be fine. Compared to the ammo economy on a LasFusil, where you have to fulfill a whole set of requirements not to replenish but to keep the shot you just fired is insane (excluding the low health gun switch bug - if it is still present). Just to name a few.

Lastly there is this new mechanics for armor regeneration, which is completely missing the point. First of it's taken right out of Darktide and turned into a crude mockery of itself. There it functions as a buff, in SM2 you get a fundamental survivability function taken away from you, while you have classes, which are specifically designed to either go deep in (Assault) or to stay out of it (Sniper). You pair that, with the huge AoE sizes especially of Tyranides and you are pretty much guaranted to be out of coherency, unless your team coordiantes dodge movement via voice...good luck with that in random groups.

There is so much stuff, that doesn't add up in the grand scheme of things and the reason, why the 3.0 patch was better received, was because it indeed made the game easier, thus veiling the underlying issues reagarding these basic game systems. Changing numbers might help in short terms, but in the long run the weapons, the skills and the survivability needs an overhaul. Essentially the game is Darktide release all over, I hoped Saber looked closely at Fatshark and learned from their mistakes, obviously they didn't. Let's hope they have the same motivation to fix this like FS did,

+1

[Kharn the Betrayer]

Who cares? They're entirely different games. Play both and enjoy both rather than crying that one is better in your imagination.

[Teran]

İlk olarak Dundo tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Teran tarafından gönderildi:

Oh jeez, someone better tell the sisters of battle, inquisitors, and commissars to stop using bolters or they might lose their arms!

There are MANY patterns of bolters, regular humans use different patterns, the one found in Darktide for example is a Sororita pattern Bolter, these are not the same as Space Marines' Bolters.

Nice smart comment though.

They are different patterns, not different "calibers". The weapons themselves are just smaller for human use. They all do the same amount of damage in the rules.

In real world terms this would generally mean they hit just as hard but are a lot less accurate or require a much higher mastery level to use them as well as a space marine uses a space marine sized bolter.

The only bolter I know of that fires a different sized round is the heavy bolter.

So yeah, my statement still applies, tourist.

[Hexagoros]

İlk olarak E-Girl with no job tarafından gönderildi:

darktide has lots of power creep and is way to easy cause of complainers like you but even then sm2 lethal is far from hard it's managable in a group. In darktide atm you can solo missions maelstrom mostly (i walked duo with a friend and 2 bots was extremely easy.)

Because FatShark knows what type of game they made.

For all of FatShark's faults, they know exactly what type of game Darktide is, and it's exactly the type of game they "want" it to be. Their Tide games are "not" E-Sports, but are simply co-op PvE games that friends boot up to have some fun with. They've said as much.

Saber, on the other hand, is having an identity crisis because they aren't sure what the heck their game is supposed to be. The next Elden Ring? The next Darktide? A HellDivers spinoff? A power fantasy? A sweat fest? Who the ♥♥♥♥ knows!

And as a result SM2's balance is all over the damn place, and is now swinging wildly from one extreme to the next with each patch.

[Lady von Titz]

İlk olarak Niks tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Lady von Titz tarafından gönderildi:

Niks you do realise that's how guardsmen snipers were taking out space marines, can't remember the 40K book it's in, ah I found it, it's called Dark Apostle its a known weakness of all space marine armours, not to mention a chaos marine in other book stating the best way to take out a loyalist space marines is to just wait for them to fight without a helmet, one bolt round and done, also Ogryns are known for killing space marines again there's lore on Ogryn killing space marines, also different companies yes, Fatshark eventually got their guns up to par, yes Darktide's/Fatshark have a two year head start, and yet Saber hasn't even started to consider buffing Primaris weapons, check the complaints on this SM2 forum there are number complaints that all Primaris weapons are under powered and the 'nids are overly tanky/bullet spongey.

I do realize that expecting games to replicate staff from books identically is stupidity, as well as having a book and a movie identical to each other.
I do realize that I have my own brain so I can play the game myself and decide by myself whether game meets or not franchise expectations, instead of following the crying crowed. They can have a skill issue, they can be fans of other genres so it is hard for them to get used to it, they might be unfamiliar with lore itself and many other reasons might be the foundation of their feedback up to just a bad mood this day.
I do realize that Warhammer lore books has dozens of examples when authors describing same stories, characters, gear and weapons differently, what actually the main concern of many newcomers, cause it is hard for them to understand where is the source of truth and what is just unspecified. Meaning you might've read some books but it seems you don't understand what you've read and how they actually are qualified - all of those stories are "legends" and "rumors" which covers the problem with controversial descriptions and it was confirmed by GW as far as I remember.
I do realize that GW has control over the content brought into the game so you basically arguing with their decisions and that is stupid. At least to have this conversation over there, in steam comments with random players.
I do realize that you lacking attention and completely lost the track of what you're trying to prove, cause you arguing with me also about Ogryns, where I agreed with you in the first place. And you're comparing different gear performing against different enemies with what we have in SM2. It sounds like "Hey, why this water isn't sweet? I've seen a bottle in a store which had title "Sprite" and it was sweet! You have a wrong water!!!" Stupidity and obsession to have a dispute to drag some attention. Calm down. Address you concerns to GW or at least game devs instead.

Nix it's all just high fantasy gothic sci-fi wrapped around games, books and lore websites, youtube channels, I don't care I'm just debating with you and your taking it far too seriously haha I could give a living sh*t what decisions and/or by whom or what the lore or books say or what GW does or writes or decides, do I like 40K? yes, do I give a f@ck about it to the extent your going to: f*ck no, you and the other one on here who's got a bee trapped in their arse cheeks need to chill out...it's not real, it's a high fantasy sci-fi product designed by company who stole its Ideas from other creators, there would be no warhammer without J.R.R Tolkien, 40K borrows from Frank Herbert's Dune hard listen I just don't care enough to harp on and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on...

[Teran]

İlk olarak Hexagoros tarafından gönderildi:

Their Tide games are "not" E-Sports...

...Saber, on the other hand, is having an identity crisis because they aren't sure what the heck their game is supposed to be...

What on earth are you talking about? They're two approaches to the same game. You think Space Marine 2 is trying to be an esport? Good lord, saying something that crazy deserves a block, but you get a pass this time because I've seen you have reasonable good takes in the past.

[Stryder]

İlk olarak Hexagoros tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak E-Girl with no job tarafından gönderildi:

darktide has lots of power creep and is way to easy cause of complainers like you but even then sm2 lethal is far from hard it's managable in a group. In darktide atm you can solo missions maelstrom mostly (i walked duo with a friend and 2 bots was extremely easy.)

Because FatShark knows what type of game they made.

For all of FatShark's faults, they know exactly what type of game Darktide is, and it's exactly the type of game they "want" it to be. Their Tide games are "not" E-Sports, but are simply co-op PvE games that friends boot up to have some fun with. They've said as much.

Saber, on the other hand, is having an identity crisis because they aren't sure what the heck their game is supposed to be. The next Elden Ring? The next Darktide? A HellDivers spinoff? A power fantasy? A sweat fest? Who the ♥♥♥♥ knows!

And as a result SM2's balance is all over the damn place, and is now swinging wildly from one extreme to the next with each patch.

Dude what?

İlk olarak Teran tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Hexagoros tarafından gönderildi:

Their Tide games are "not" E-Sports...

...Saber, on the other hand, is having an identity crisis because they aren't sure what the heck their game is supposed to be...

What on earth are you talking about? They're two approaches to the same game. You think Space Marine 2 is trying to be an esport? Good lord, saying something that crazy deserves a block, but you get a pass this time because I've seen you have reasonable good takes in the past.

Yeah he used to attack Fatshark too, now he's buddy buddy with them. Shame on him!

[Hexagoros]

İlk olarak Teran tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Hexagoros tarafından gönderildi:

Their Tide games are "not" E-Sports...

...Saber, on the other hand, is having an identity crisis because they aren't sure what the heck their game is supposed to be...

What on earth are you talking about? They're two approaches to the same game. You think Space Marine 2 is trying to be an esport? Good lord, saying something that crazy deserves a block, but you get a pass this time because I've seen you have reasonable good takes in the past.

It's called hyperbole.

Regardless, let's look at what the two companies say in their patch notes to see if this analogy was entirely unfair.

FatShark likes to use the phrase "We never ask how the horde is doing, only how the players are doing." This is (probably?) why neither Darktide nor Vermintide 2 ever had a "NerfDivers Moment" where the players were shouting about feeling powerless.

Saber, on the other hand, in the recent pre-release patch notes for 4.1, repeatedly referenced increased win-rates across various difficulties, and cited that as the reason for intentionally upping the difficulty.

To quote them directly regarding the armor nerf; "The reason why it was reduced last week was that we noticed a very substantial bump in win rates on Ruthless after Patch 3.0, as Minoris enemies would no longer remove the entire Armour bar with their attacks, ranged AI Damage was nerfed across the board, and the ability to regenerate Armour by parrying normal Minoris attacks was added."

This causes me to ask three questions 1) Why was this increase in win rates not expected when the difficulty was reduced? 2) Why is this increase in win rates a bad thing? 3) If the community was asking for buffs, wasn't the community also - at least indirectly - asking for increased win rates?

They then mentioned win rates again saying "When the game came out in September, the Ruthless difficulty win rate hovered around 60%. Weeks later, and with the changes introduced by Patch 3.0, we saw that the same win rate had jumped to over 80%, and we received a lot of feedback stating that the game had become too easy—even at its maximum difficulty (at the time)."

This begs a couple of questions as well 1) Shouldn't win rates increase as players become more familiar with the game? 2) Who was the feedback regarding "too easy" coming from, when your own community poll showed a very lopsided majority thought the game was too hard? 3) Why believe feedback regarding the game being too easy, when the Steam reviews spiked in the week following Patch 3.0?

Taken together, remarks like these (to me at least) hint that Saber has a target win rate ceiling above which they do not want the playerbase reaching. Similar to a game like League of Legends targeting a 51% win rate via matchmaking algorithms.

This also hints (to me at least) that Saber is listening to the loud minority of the playerbase, rather than to their own polling and Steam reviews. Via the only empirical metrics available (their own public polling and Steam reviews) Patch 3 was well received in the weeks after it's release.

But, I think they may have gone the opposite of FatShark and instead "Asked how the horde was doing" rather than the players.

That's why I used the E-Sport analogy.