If SM 2 is canon, does that make SM 1 canon too?

[GameBoi]

Apparently the first game wasn't considered canon according to online chatter. Fans claimed one of the devs said as such in an faq, while others said that answer was a jokeful non-answer to avoid talking about the first game's place in the timeline. There's also the issue that Titus hadn't been mentioned at all in the wider 40k universe until Boltgun.

But if they're saying SM 2 is canon according to the pinned comment, does that retroactively canonize SM 1 too?

[zastcat]

the confusion over the 1st game is because titus was in the job cato sicarius was supposed to have so it was kind of a lore conflict, but that's not new to 40k (or any of the warhammer games for that matter) by any means

for a while the theory was that it was an alternate universe situation since games workshop rarely outright decanonizes things, after a while it turned out they just said the game happened earlier in the timeline and titus got disappeared by the inquisition thus "losing" his place in the ultramarines before cato swept in to take his spot, the latest lore on the matter follows that same trend with titus basically sitting in an inquisitor's custody for ages until his captor got himself killed and titus was able to get out then eventually reconnecting with the ultramarines and getting reinstated as a lieutenant

he's in that weird space of being a videogame character and not coming up much outside his game series, sort of like the blood ravens were only mentioned again relatively recently

[zastcat]

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

Technically speaking, the 40k games and 40k novels are not cannon. The only thing that is really considered cannon is the table top material. So rule books and codex.

you're of course welcome to go find and cite where in gw's canon policy that's stated.. at all

[The_Dipl0mat]

Originally posted by zastcat:

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

Technically speaking, the 40k games and 40k novels are not cannon. The only thing that is really considered cannon is the table top material. So rule books and codex.

you're of course welcome to go find and cite where in gw's canon policy that's stated.. at all

Feel free to ignore him, he's an activist slowly becoming more and more deluded in an attempt to explain that things he doesn't like in the past aren't canon

As for OP, zastcat said it best. Takes place a bit earlier and Titus got inquisitioned due to the chaos stuff. Now he's back. Back again

Though I wouldn't take everything as 100% accurate, but probably the broad steps are most accurate

[zastcat]

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

Originally posted by zastcat:

you're of course welcome to go find and cite where in gw's canon policy that's stated.. at all

Sure. Here you go.

"I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."
--Marc Gascoigne



Oh I see a black bar, probably one of my stalkers again. They follow me around.

literally none of that says that only the tabletop content is canon though, it puts everything on the same level of "might be, might not be", did you not read that before copy/pasting it on here?

you basically responded to me asking for proof that "the games and novels are non-canon" by finding exactly what I expected you'd find, a games workshop employee essentially giving a non-answer that amounts to "everything is canon including the contradictions and there's no right answers"

[zastcat]

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

Originally posted by zastcat:

literally none of that says that only the tabletop content is canon though, it puts everything on the same level of "might be, might not be", did you not read that before copy/pasting it on here?

Simple translation is that it is on par with real world folktales. Personally I don't consider folktales to be part of history. Given he wrote numerous books and basically says they can be trusted and that they were generational phone game stories... that is quite telling.

the thing you had to prove was that the games and novels aren't canon, you came back with a writer's statement that everything is canon and even in the case of contradictions nothing necessarily takes precedence over anything else

you are proving the exact opposite of what you were trying to prove

[The_Dipl0mat]

Originally posted by zastcat:

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

Simple translation is that it is on par with real world folktales. Personally I don't consider folktales to be part of history. Given he wrote numerous books and basically says they can be trusted and that they were generational phone game stories... that is quite telling.

the thing you had to prove was that the games and novels aren't canon, you came back with a writer's statement that everything is canon and even in the case of contradictions nothing necessarily takes precedence over anything else

you are proving the exact opposite of what you were trying to prove

I gotta say, it's the best way to handle a universe like this. Makes sure writers don't have to pour over books written before their current nor worry about the future. And allows for easy retcons like timeline placements
Especially with things being like the Ordo Chronos having a constant internal struggle so we never actually know the date for somethin
EDIT: Though it would be hilarious if they did something like "Hey, it's been 10-20 years. Everything before now is no longer canon at all. Its considered legends, we're restarting"

[zastcat]

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

Originally posted by zastcat:

the thing you had to prove was that the games and novels aren't canon, you came back with a writer's statement that everything is canon and even in the case of contradictions nothing necessarily takes precedence over anything else

you are proving the exact opposite of what you were trying to prove

I proved that the writer considers it unreliable. Which means that you can assume something is cannon but it never was or there could be small truths similar to folklore. But the novels are far from what actually happened.

Take the information as what you will. I personally do not consider that cannon worthy.

what you are talking about is called "head canon", it is when somebody makes a personal stance on what is canon independent of an official source

head canon is fine, I use it whenever I'm using necrons in any games I'm running, but making a definite statement that all the content you do not personally like isn't canon anymore is just misinformation

if you'd said "I personally don't consider any of this canon" I wouldn't have nearly the issue with this that I do, but you came into the thread declaring:

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

Technically speaking, the 40k games and 40k novels are not cannon. The only thing that is really considered cannon is the table top material. So rule books and codex.

a definitive statement that the books and games aren't canon and that the rule books and codexes are

you then gave as evidence an author statement that puts everything on the same level, the standard games workshop answer of "everything is canon not everything is true", and are using it as though it magically does away with everything when by the same reasoning somebody could say "well only this 1 novel I read is canon"

it's really simple, your head canon is your head canon, it isn't however a fact for everybody else and presenting it as such is disingenuous

[zastcat]

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

I'll bold the parts you should have paid attention. The technicality was the writer's quote completely dismissing the novels that he and others wrote.

which isn't what was done, their statement was about the fact that the setting is full of contradictions, it wasn't "oh well just toss out everything we did"

putting "technically" in front of what you say doesn't change the obvious intent to portray what you said as fact or correct, it's like any number of 40k youtubers presenting "the true story of" and just trotting out their favorite version, they're giving a version, but they aren't magically reaching into the mess that is games workshop's writing and pulling absolute truth from it

The "Take the information as what you will." means you can make up your own mind about it. Doesn't change the fact that I currently have more evidence supporting my decision than you do in yours.

funnily enough as you have 0 evidence actually supporting the original statement, no, you really don't

I will indeed "take the information as what I will", that you have chosen to present your head canon as though it is something others are expected to accept

[Deadoon]

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

Technically speaking, the 40k games and 40k novels are not cannon. The only thing that is really considered cannon is the table top material. So rule books and codex.

Especially given recent novelists actions coming to light.

https://warhammer40000.com/space-marine-the-board-game/
Table top lt. Titus figure included, as well as some gaunts and ripper swarms, apparently a good deal for army building if you want to buy it.
According to the book included it references SM1's events, including his abnormal feats.

[The_Dipl0mat]

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Demetrian_Titus

Oh hey, a friend told me some stuff about Titus (n' I just grabbed some reciepts. As the "Oh a friend told me" isn't very reliable https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Demetrian_Titus)

After leaving the imprisonment of the Inquisitor (who was eventually corrupted by a daemon, ♥♥♥♥♥♥ heretic). He became a Deathwatch Black Shield, dubbed "Nullus", ♥♥♥♥ happened, yadda yadda. Was about to die and a squad of Ultramarines saved him (specifically a fellow named Chief Librarian Tigurius who was able to see his soul with special magic warp eyes), and his wounds were declared severe enough that he needed to cross the Rubicon Primaris to have a chance of living

Honestly, didn't expect him to have so much background lore

[Deadoon]

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

Originally posted by Deadoon:

https://warhammer40000.com/space-marine-the-board-game/
Table top lt. Titus figure included, as well as some gaunts and ripper swarms, apparently a good deal for army building if you want to buy it.
According to the book included it references SM1's events, including his abnormal feats.

Given it says board game on the box, that isn't really table toppin it. lol

40k is a board game.

[The_Dipl0mat]

Originally posted by Deadoon:

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

Given it says board game on the box, that isn't really table toppin it. lol

40k is a board game.

Just a heads up, I'd recommend an ignore unless you wanna get into a mindless loop where he insists you're wrong no matter what and thinks there basically is no canon

[Deadoon]

Originally posted by The_Dipl0mat:

Originally posted by Deadoon:

40k is a board game.

Just a heads up, I'd recommend an ignore unless you wanna get into a mindless loop where he insists you're wrong no matter what and thinks there basically is no canon

I know, that is why I am using his arguments against him and being super low effort about it.

[zastcat]

Originally posted by Deadoon:

Originally posted by The_Dipl0mat:

Just a heads up, I'd recommend an ignore unless you wanna get into a mindless loop where he insists you're wrong no matter what and thinks there basically is no canon

I know, that is why I am using his arguments against him and being super low effort about it.

you do you but personally I already gave up on trying to point out the flawed logic when the response became a drawn out "no u", so many better ways to spend my time than arguing with somebody who has already reached a flawed conclusion and is demanding the world embrace it

[zastcat]

Originally posted by WastingSanity:

You presented no counter evidence, lost the argument, and you reverted to the classic "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!". lol Now you cope, and claim I was trying to force you to embrace it when I clearly said the opposite. Any one reading this can easily scroll through this thread and instantly debunk your claim. Even better, I will help them.

I mean hey, you're free to hold onto that little delusion if you want but the evidence you presented was in direct opposition to your original claim. You did the work of providing evidence for me, which considering my issue was with your initial claim of "only this is canon" is how burden of proof works

you made a claim, I questioned your claim and asked for evidence, your evidence was a writer saying everything is canon even if there' discrepancies and that there is no objective truth

Enjoy your double meaning L.

posting where you very slightly walk back your statement while leaving out both the initial statement I objected to and your dismissal of my pointing out head canon isn't the same as canon by calling that head canon isn't the same as a "double meaning"

it's backing off from a weak position then shifting goalposts, then throwing even that out the window to still hold the initial position in a way you can go "nope, nuh-uh, if you attack this I have a defense now!"

my issue, as I've said throughout all of it, was with your initial position, that only the tabletop is canon, something you are still pushing later on despite your own evidence saying otherwise

but I'm falling into the same trap that goes on throughout the steam forums at this point, if I keep posting then I'm "losing" and also joining the long list of "enemies" and "stalkers" whose grand crime is...disagreeing with you when you make a blanket statement, if I stop posting then I've "conceded defeat" and am just a name to bolster your ego