Hot take: UltraSmurfs are unironically the best legion

[Psychedelic Adventurer]

Let's all be honest with ourselves. Outside of complaining for the sake of complaining, feeding into the smurf meme, or getting sick of the oversaturation of the chapter, there isn't really that much to complain about.

- Best geneseed (most stable and intact)
- Has the best primarch in the lore (actually not stupid and a decent fighter). Also, not dead.
- Actually run and sustain planets without being a grimdark hellscape (relatively)
- Grimdark lore actually makes sense and doesn't feel shoe-horned. Eg, Calth

-Not the Marines malevolent.

[Blackguard]

Publicado originalmente por thunda:

Publicado originalmente por Blackguard:

They 'are' the best, and that's why people hate them so much.

Best at what? every chapter has its strengths. Put the Ultraboys against Space Wolves or Blood Angels in CQC and they'll get decimated.

And in terms of Mary Sues, the Grey Knights are way beyond Ultrasmurfs

Custodes are the Gary Stus of the 40K setting bro, Grey Knights are written as trash in comparison.

[Ghom]

Most of the Ultrmarine hate comes from the foot thick plot armor they have in the books and/or lore. There's also the fact that space marines have double if not triple the number of individual kits that every other faction has in the tabletop game. I get that space marines make GW a lot of money and they are technically the protagonists of modern 40k but if you play tabletop you're either a fan or you're sick to death of the blue boys coming in and saving the day at the last second.

[thunda]

Publicado originalmente por Blackguard:

Publicado originalmente por thunda:

Best at what? every chapter has its strengths. Put the Ultraboys against Space Wolves or Blood Angels in CQC and they'll get decimated.

And in terms of Mary Sues, the Grey Knights are way beyond Ultrasmurfs

Custodes are the Gary Stus of the 40K setting bro, Grey Knights are written as trash in comparison.

Nope they arent. Custodes are powerful, but that doesnt make them Gary Stus. Grey Knights or the Silver Sues as I call them are actually written like that. Ultramarines are also Gary Stus, especially in the older, Wardian lore.

Power doesnt equal Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

[thunda]

Publicado originalmente por Blackguard:

Publicado originalmente por thunda:

Nope they arent. Custodes are powerful, but that doesnt make them Gary Stus. Grey Knights or the Silver Sues as I call them are actually written like that. Ultramarines are also Gary Stus, especially in the older, Wardian lore.

Power doesnt equal Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

Okay you just don't know or understand what a Gary Stu is, and that's okay, let me educate you, foolish one.

Gary Stu- Male version of Mary Sue - a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

Power without flaw literally means Gary stu, which is a perfect description of Custodes.

Please refrain from using this sort of lingo in the future, you just make yourself look stupid and unintelligent.

Yep I know the term and its definition. Custodes do have flaws. Namely their lack of real combat experience. They also have a crippling lack of actual lore on them, but most importantly they arent written as Mary Sues.

And since you seem to be an individual of questionable intelligence, I feel the need to repeat myself that just being powerful doesnt make a character (or chapter in this case), a Mary Sue. Even power without flaw doesnt make a Mary Sue.

Living Tribunal in Marvel Comics is not a Mary Sue, even though he is one of the most powerful beings in the entire multiverse. Way beyond the likes of Thanos (even with Infinity Gauntlet), Dr Strange or Galactus. They arent even blips on his radar.

Living Tribunal could've easily stopped Thanos from wiping out half the lives in the universe. He could've just poof'd in, taken the Gauntlet from Thanos and saved the day. And thats Mary Sue writing. But he didnt do that, because such things arent important to him. He is not a hero or a "good guy". Do you understand now?

Mary Sue is about how the characters are written. So you dont even understand the very terms you throw around, all high and mighty. I'm not surprised, to say the least.

In the lore the real Mary Sues like Ultrasmurfs and Grey Knights are often depicted as coming in as heroes and saving the day, and its especially jarring when they do it to other SM chapters. That is a hallmark tradition of Mary Sues. The perfect hero comes in and saves the day, because the other defenders just couldnt do it without him.

And _that_ is why people hate Mary Sue writing, because it belittles the sacrifices and efforts of others to prop up someone else. Not because the Mary Sue has powerful abilities.

[Blackguard]

Publicado originalmente por thunda:

Publicado originalmente por Blackguard:

Okay you just don't know or understand what a Gary Stu is, and that's okay, let me educate you, foolish one.

Gary Stu- Male version of Mary Sue - a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

Power without flaw literally means Gary stu, which is a perfect description of Custodes.

Please refrain from using this sort of lingo in the future, you just make yourself look stupid and unintelligent.

Yep I know the term and its definition. Custodes do have flaws. Namely their lack of real combat experience. They also have a crippling lack of actual lore on them, but most importantly they arent written as Mary Sues.

And since you seem to be an individual of questionable intelligence, I feel the need to repeat myself that just being powerful doesnt make a character (or chapter in this case), a Mary Sue. Even power without flaw doesnt make a Mary Sue.

Living Tribunal in Marvel Comics is not a Mary Sue, even though he is one of the most powerful beings in the entire multiverse. Way beyond the likes of Thanos (even with Infinity Gauntlet), Dr Strange or Galactus. They arent even blips on his radar.

Living Tribunal could've easily stopped Thanos from wiping out half the lives in the universe. He could've just poof'd in, taken the Gauntlet from Thanos and saved the day. And thats Mary Sue writing. But he didnt do that, because such things arent important to him. He is not a hero or a "good guy". Do you understand now?

Mary Sue is about how the characters are written. So you dont even understand the very terms you throw around, all high and mighty. I'm not surprised to say the least.

In the lore the real Mary Sues like Ultrasmurfs and Grey Knights are often depicted as coming in as heroes and saving the day, and its especially jarring when they do it to other SM chapters. That is a hallmark tradition of Mary Sues. The perfect hero comes in and saves the day, because the other defenders just couldnt do it without him.

And _that_ is why people hate Mary Sue writing, because it belittles the sacrifices and efforts of others to prop up someone else. Not because the Mary Sue has powerful abilities.

Bruh, say what you want, I've told you how it is, and if you don't like it then tough.

tl;dr btw

[thunda]

Publicado originalmente por Blackguard:

Bruh, say what you want, I've told you how it is, and if you don't like it then tough.

tl;dr btw

Calling others dumb and foolish and you cant steady yourself to read even 1 minute worth of text. Youre a parody of yourself, kid. Blocked, dont reply

[Psychedelic Adventurer]

Publicado originalmente por Blackguard:

Publicado originalmente por thunda:

Nope they arent. Custodes are powerful, but that doesnt make them Gary Stus. Grey Knights or the Silver Sues as I call them are actually written like that. Ultramarines are also Gary Stus, especially in the older, Wardian lore.

Power doesnt equal Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

Okay you just don't know or understand what a Gary Stu is, and that's okay, let me educate you, foolish one.

Gary Stu- Male version of Mary Sue - a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

Power without flaw literally means Gary stu, which is a perfect description of Custodes.

Please refrain from using this sort of lingo in the future, you just make yourself look stupid and unintelligent.

Just want to pop in here and drop some facts on this little muppet, because in essence, and disregarding the whole gary stu nonsense, Thunda is actually right. The Custodes are not mary sues. The Custodes are designed as the most peak/- performance entity that the emperor's science could conjure. Their abilities measure this fact. Their weakness is not only that there is tangibly less of them in any scenario where they are called to fight, and that their arrogance clouds their judgement, especially before the Horus Heresy. It's also worthy of note that the former is reflected in the tabletop stats as well.

If any faction in the Imperium has the mary sue label, post matt-ward, The Grey Knights are it; but that's mostly just assumed because the GK's just don't have that much direct lore that flushes out them consistantly. There's the absurd Khaldor Draigo fluff, but on the flip sides, there's the whole debacle with the Space Wolves, who were at their apex in the mary sue hierachy at the time.

The best contemporary lore we have lately is the Arks of Omen fluff from 'Angron'. And in that lot, they actually all die.

Publicado originalmente por Blackguard:

Bruh, say what you want, I've told you how it is, and if you don't like it then tough.
tl;dr btw

I just want to remind people that when you do this, you instantly cede all ground you have made in any argument. Don't do this.

[Blackguard]

Publicado originalmente por Psychedelic Adventurer:

Publicado originalmente por Blackguard:

Okay you just don't know or understand what a Gary Stu is, and that's okay, let me educate you, foolish one.

Gary Stu- Male version of Mary Sue - a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

Power without flaw literally means Gary stu, which is a perfect description of Custodes.

Please refrain from using this sort of lingo in the future, you just make yourself look stupid and unintelligent.

Just want to pop in here and drop some facts on this little muppet, because in essence, and disregarding the whole gary stu nonsense, Thunda is actually right. The Custodes are not mary sues. The Custodes are designed as the most peak/- performance entity that the emperor's science could conjure. Their abilities measure this fact. Their weakness is not only that there is tangibly less of them in any scenario where they are called to fight, and that their arrogance clouds their judgement, especially before the Horus Heresy. It's also worthy of note that the former is reflected in the tabletop stats as well.

If any faction in the Imperium has the mary sue label, post matt-ward, The Grey Knights are it; but that's mostly just assumed because the GK's just don't have that much direct lore that flushes out them consistantly. There's the absurd Khaldor Draigo fluff, but on the flip sides, there's the whole debacle with the Space Wolves, who were at their apex in the mary sue hierachy at the time.

The best contemporary lore we have lately is the Arks of Omen fluff from 'Angron'. And in that lot, they actually all die.

Yeaaaah those aren't flaws.

When they're skilled enough to easily overcome those odds numbers are irrelevant, and while they are arrogant they're pretty much right to be so, considering as you said they are peak performance, which again means that isn't in of itself, a flaw. They are literally Power without Flaw, making them Gary Stus.

Grey Knights are literally mass produced trash tainted by chaos in comparison. The way they're written does come off as sue'ish but Custodes are 'waaaay' worse.

and I wasn't arguing btw, I told him how it was and if he want's to rage-post about it then he's welcome to do so. I'm not gonna read them tho, I have better things to do with my time than bump heads with emotionally damaged people on the internet.

[Hexagoros]

Publicado originalmente por Psychedelic Adventurer:

Publicado originalmente por Daikuma:

This is what I don't like about them. They're too "perfect" to the point of being less interesting for it. These guys are the "most space marine-y space marines", and aren't as colorful as some of the alternatives, so to speak. I don't hate them, I'd just rather play another chapter.

I think that feeds more into the meme honestly. Their geneseed may be well intact, but being the biggest legion means they're constantly getting thrown into the toughest meatgrinders that the Imperium has - which is to say, they're pretty fighting everywhere. In the Indomitus Crusade, in the Nachmund Gauntlet, anywhere, at any time. Also, the smurfs don't have mastery of anything. They're good/ok at the package, but they don't excel. I get your rationale though. :Corinthian:

Was this retconned? I thought the Ultramarines stuck to the 1000-marine cap as per the Codex?

Otherwise aren't the Black Templars the largest loyalist chapter?

[Hexagoros]

Publicado originalmente por Blackguard:

Publicado originalmente por thunda:

Nope they arent. Custodes are powerful, but that doesnt make them Gary Stus. Grey Knights or the Silver Sues as I call them are actually written like that. Ultramarines are also Gary Stus, especially in the older, Wardian lore.

Power doesnt equal Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

Okay you just don't know or understand what a Gary Stu is, and that's okay, let me educate you, foolish one.

Gary Stu- Male version of Mary Sue - a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

Power without flaw literally means Gary stu, which is a perfect description of Custodes.

Please refrain from using this sort of lingo in the future, you just make yourself look stupid and unintelligent.

The Custodes do have flaws. Lots of them. Most of which the fanbase overlooks.

The current, degenerate state of the Imperium is entirely their fault, as they failed to properly protect the Emperor during his battle with Horus. The case has even been made that the Custodes should have prevented the Emperor from engaging Horus in personal combat "at all."

In fact, the Emperor's security was so lax during the final days of the Horus Heresy (for plot reasons lmao) that a big fan theory is that the Custodes contained traitorous elements. (yes, I'm well aware this lax security was entirely for plot reasons, but still)

The Custodes furthermore failed to properly protect the Imperial Palace during the Siege of Terra.

Every infiltration of the Imperial Palace during the last 10,000 years falls on the shoulders of the Custodes. And there have been many!

Furthermore, the Custodes have a minute amount of actual lore - by design - making them an enigma.

Basically, every time the Big E or the Imperial Palace needs the Custodes most, they fail.

Taking an objective look at the Custodes' track record, they are comically inept.

That is not Gary Stu, that's the opposite of Gary Stu.

[ParatrooperGR]

Hexagoros, you are right on the Custodes but I believe this is just an aspect of what I mentioned earlier. There is much flawed about the basic premise that no amount of good writing can paper over. The staggering ineffectiveness of Custodes is just an inconsistency that arises from some "bad stuff needing to happen", no matter what. But a lot of that goes around in Horus' Heresy. The Emperor himself is, at the same time, the pinnacle of humanity and a bumbling fool, simply because the "bad stuff has to happen". Ah well, we still love it, hey? :)

[~ Fabulous ~]

Publicado originalmente por Hexagoros:

Publicado originalmente por Blackguard:

Okay you just don't know or understand what a Gary Stu is, and that's okay, let me educate you, foolish one.

Gary Stu- Male version of Mary Sue - a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

Power without flaw literally means Gary stu, which is a perfect description of Custodes.

Please refrain from using this sort of lingo in the future, you just make yourself look stupid and unintelligent.

The Custodes do have flaws. Lots of them. Most of which the fanbase overlooks.

The current, degenerate state of the Imperium is entirely their fault, as they failed to properly protect the Emperor during his battle with Horus. The case has even been made that the Custodes should have prevented the Emperor from engaging Horus in personal combat "at all."

In fact, the Emperor's security was so lax during the final days of the Horus Heresy (for plot reasons lmao) that a big fan theory is that the Custodes contained traitorous elements. (yes, I'm well aware this lax security was entirely for plot reasons, but still)

The Custodes furthermore failed to properly protect the Imperial Palace during the Siege of Terra.

Every infiltration of the Imperial Palace during the last 10,000 years falls on the shoulders of the Custodes. And there have been many!

Furthermore, the Custodes have a minute amount of actual lore - by design - making them an enigma.

Basically, every time the Big E or the Imperial Palace needs the Custodes most, they fail.

Taking an objective look at the Custodes' track record, they are comically inept.

That is not Gary Stu, that's the opposite of Gary Stu.

Horus would have been dead if not for Dorn insistence of not assassinating Horus and keep arguing with Valdor about it and yes the costode are strangely absence during the siege of terra, but only because they are fighting something, must be something that the Emperor deem to be more important than Horus tantrum lol.

[Pokemastuh]

Publicado originalmente por Psychedelic Adventurer:

Let's all be honest with ourselves. Outside of complaining for the sake of complaining, feeding into the smurf meme, or getting sick of the oversaturation of the chapter, there isn't really that much to complain about.

- Best geneseed (most stable and intact)
- Has the best primarch in the lore (actually not stupid and a decent fighter). Also, not dead.
- Actually run and sustain planets without being a grimdark hellscape (relatively)
- Grimdark lore actually makes sense and doesn't feel shoe-horned. Eg, Calth

-Not the Marines malevolent.

Maybe. Salamanders are friendlier though.

[Jimmi Stixx]

Were the Custodes tied up with the webway after Magnus blasted a warp hole in it killing millions?

Legions at the gates and demons poring into the webway connected to the throne room. Or had the gate been shut by Big E's golden ass and the webway abandoned at the point Horus arrived at Terra? Then the Custodes got their lunch break? Good to be in the union.

P.S. I thought the Emperor's Children were the bestest legion?

[Psychedelic Adventurer]

Publicado originalmente por Jimmi Stixx:

Were the Custodes tied up with the webway after Magnus blasted a warp hole in it killing millions?

Legions at the gates and demons poring into the webway connected to the throne room. Or had the gate been shut by Big E's golden ass and the webway abandoned at the point Horus arrived at Terra? Then the Custodes got their lunch break? Good to be in the union. :resist:

P.S. I thought the Emperor's Children were the bestest legion?

I think it’s tacitly admitted that the custodies make their final stand in the elder city and are barely holding out by the time the Emperor sallies out to push the demons back. Master of mankind basically ends at the point Draknyen gets launched into the portal, and the Custodes and Big E retreat and close the webway gate on the demons. Big just holds the door shut for the next 10k years.