Is early "Curse" the only way to survive higher Torments?

[AranOki02]

I'm trying to beat every Torment with every character and I've only had success with a very specific build that I mostly gathered from posters on this board.
I start off with Dark Marker and either Judgement or Sin Spotter and hope to get Curse ASAP. That's it.
If I don't have Curse (extra heal from killing Cursed enemies) before the second level then I can't outheal the damage and die.
Has anyone found success with other builds?

[WildeGoose]

Dark Marker and Judgement start is the most consistent way I have found to beat Torment 5 on characters that don't specifically have a gimmick that makes it unfeasible (Postal Dude for example, only debuffs Judgement with no benefit.) I don't typically need Curse to win, but I typically take any active as soon as it is offered, both for early power as well as getting them out of the pool entirely. Spooky Niya I switch Judgement for Sunder. Postal Dude, I start Sin Spotter and Unholy Machine gun and hope for a high roll in Limbo (early tower damage is essential for this skin, +50% attack speed simply does not make up for the -50% damage.) For the Critical Roller Gilbo skin, I started with Dark Marker and Guns of God (because of his ability). Like for that skin, you pretty much need Nuke within the first few rounds or it's probably a loss.

I've grown tired of Dark Marker + Judgement personally, so I've been experimenting with other ways to win, if I find another that is semi-reliable, I'll report back.

[Laenthal]

I still can't get how people make Judgement to work. Enemies just swarm under the flails and Tower Range is a debuff for my runs. What i am missing?

[WildeGoose]

Originally posted by Laenthal:

I still can't get how people make Judgement to work. Enemies just swarm under the flails and Tower Range is a debuff for my runs. What i am missing?

Judgement works specifically with Dark Tower early because it is one of the only towers strong enough and fast enough to kill a reasonable amount of cursed enemies to keep your HP decent. In the higher Torments, you're never going to get out of the first two layers without letting some leakers through, so your strategy needs to change from never getting hit to being able to survive a reasonable amount of hits until you can build a strategy. In Limbo, the top priority will be two things. 1) Upgrading Dark Tower as high as possible as fast as possible. The reason for this is that the range, projectiles, and piercing all scale extremely high with the upgrade marking more targets which makes it easier for Judgement to keep you healthy. I typically make it a priority to have a Purple DT ASAP, by wave 2-3 of layer two or earlier. 2) getting enough tower damage to ensure that a Blue Judgement will be able to 1 hit kill the majority of the bird types in Lust. If you're not on John Fenriz (and you've not gotten some high roll like Sine Spotter through combining in Layer 1), you always want to take another structure slot at the end of Limbo. This will let you get a 2nd Judgement tower up. With 4 maces, you should hit enough birds to survive, though you will fluctuate in health. At this point, your next priority is finding some amount of respectable AOE to deal with the upcoming Gluttony and Greed. Dark Pike or Sawblade are best here imo. Sunder just does not deal enough damage unless you've high-rolled luck relic and/or cards, a decent level Sunder (Purple or higher), and Lucky Fire. AoE also scales Judgement, Dark Pike, and Sawblade, so it's a great add. They also make it worthwhile to start scaling range. I will typically hold at least one gold Judgement even into the end-game, unless I get Sawblade, then I will eventually trade all Judgements for Sawblades, as they are essentially a better Judgement.

I'll stop here as that is a huge block of text, but I hope it helps.

[Laenthal]

Thank you for extensive reply!
As i understood it - Judgement is just a means to get through initial high-HP trash at the start of T5. But the game is essentially a bodycount problem, so no wonder i was always struggling to understand Sawblades too - they are such a waste at the fresh start.

The next big base damage that i know of is Dark Pulse, which does not have the reach problem, just amount of crits happening.

[WildeGoose]

Originally posted by Laenthal:

Thank you for extensive reply!
As i understood it - Judgement is just a means to get through initial high-HP trash at the start of T5. But the game is essentially a bodycount problem, so no wonder i was always struggling to understand Sawblades too - they are such a waste at the fresh start.

The next big base damage that i know of is Dark Pulse, which does not have the reach problem, just amount of crits happening.

Unholy Pulse is a fantastic tower to pick up if you've got a T4 (Purple) or higher Dark Marker, as each penetrating hit on a target has its own chance to crit. Combined with even a single Unholy Crit it will quickly be attacking multiple times per wave, which is a huge assist on any layer with high number of tanky sinners (basically every wave after Lust). It's an always take for me if I haven't gone out of Dark Marker (which can happen with some specific skins.)

[AranOki02]

They need to make more cards and builds viable. It's weird that they released a balance patch and the only change was capping Unholy Crit Chance and buffing a single character.

[Laenthal]

Well.. i'v just completed a run (T2) with nothing but Snipers with no curses. They were hitting for like 13k non-crit. I'll see if it can be vialble on later Toments.

[WildeGoose]

Originally posted by AranOki02:

They need to make more cards and builds viable. It's weird that they released a balance patch and the only change was capping Unholy Crit Chance and buffing a single character.

I think Garrisons could be viable with most skins with just a little bit more help. The buffed Persist helped. I think if Subordinates also was dropped to 3 or 4 energy, Garrisons could reasonably compete with towers without needing to rely on Slasher+Army of One high roll.