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Eventually I'll add all the stats to the club house for each club in the set (as well as a way to browse the leaderboards) so players will be able to inspect them.
It was introduced in 1.11 😁
This is an excellent progression system, there are so many cool little things in this game, clearly a lot of thought goes into it - much appreciated!
Although if I get my driver up to fast swing / scratch level on your link, you're gonna HAVE to find a way to add par 5s my man! :D
The lev 30+ increase is definitely a case of be careful what you wish for! Obviously the driver range and other increases is helpful in many ways. I've achieve some cracking scores! But some shots are a lot harder as the gap between max distance and hole length on some medium clubs is much further away requiring much more mental math. I guess this is the price for having a massive drive distance!
So to be clear, I am not complaining, and any jokes aside I do think that the challenge should also increase to compliment the perks as the player gets better.
But some scenarios, most notably on the driving range and par 3s on full mixed courses seem to leave quite big options gaps, especially depending on wind levels. With the driving range in particular it means I probably wont be able to better scores I achieved with a lower XP.
I'm fine with that if that's how it is, (especially as I have the choice in beta to reset my skill level) but I wonder if some more nuance could be added at a rank 40 -50 level to bring some of the lower / medium clubs up a bit more to match the range of the higher clubs and give a bit more choice to the highly ranked player on low distance shots, without making things too OP?
I may not be explaining this very well, and I definitely think that player XP level should never exclude a newer playing from being competitive, but I wonder if there's any tweaks to be done to improve the end-game rewards?
So what you're saying is that there is an apparent gap between the irons and the woods/driver due to the increased distance? Or between the wedges and the irons?
The wedges don't actually increase in distance along with the other clubs, so that would make sense. In fact here's the club stat table as it appears in the code:
It's based directly on the chart I posted previously, although isn't identical.
It lists the clubs with the driver at the top, and putter at the bottom. Each has 3 pairs of values for the 3 sets of ranges as you level up. Each pair is an impulse modifier (used in the physics to calculate 'strength'), and the max distance. Looking at the end column there is definitely a bit of a gap from 70->110 after the wedges.
However. While this could be changed (perhaps by increasing the pitch wedge by a smaller amount, just to close the gap a little, and the gap wedge smaller still), I'd also propose that the player could be enticed to play a bit more "skillfully" for want of a better word. In that the top/backspin actually affects the loft angle too, and can be used to pull up on the range of the club. With max backspin the 9 iron will drop a lot shorter than 110m for sure.
This hasn't actually been made very clear on the game's part though. Perhaps as the player adjusts backspin the range indicator on the minimap needs to adjust itself accordingly, to give a better readout? Using the spin could also reward more XP. For example landing on the green close to the hole gives a bonus already - this could be increased should the landing be also made using back/top spin. The same goes for the driving range - using spin to get good accuracy should be more valuable.
More XP across all levels would also encourage new players to practice their spin shots.
I could also split the leaderboards by level - either as low/high tier players, or low/med/high depending on the perceived discrepancy between levels. Or even different leaderboards based on the current club range the player has? That way there'd almost be a league system, and players would need to get the best score they can before being automatically promoted by their level?
But first, to be absolutely clear again, I do not think achieving higher XP perks should be 'easy mode' for experienced players, far from it. It's great that the boosts come with additional challenge elsewhere. So these are early observations, not suggestions necessarily, maybe to help you decide on whether and how to tweak the balance a little, if you choose to. To absolutely underline this I completely agree with this comment....
... and my latest upgrade has forced me to do exactly this, and I do not mind at all. But some of the gaps have just become more noticeable and for example when combined with a tricky wind condition and nasty green-front hazards makes the calculation for the necessarily longer club just a little too hard IMO.
As you say, the above code and previous table do show where some of these are, but to give a few playing examples:
- Where the Driver can now far overdrive the hole, the gap to 3-Wood is significant, so if you determine that the driver is needed in difficult conditions, getting the right range between say 60% and 85% on the shot bar and while using spin + wind + hazards can be very tricky to get right. Although the diff between 1W and 3W is only increased by 10y the gap as a player feels massive (50 yards is a lot!), where the lower club is useless but the higher club has a huge range variation. This is particularly noticeable on medium length par 4 holes, where at level 2 (250y) the green was drive-able.
- Same applies to the highest iron to the lowest wood. Most noticeable on the long par 3s on full courses (not so obviously on the pitch n putt courses where the holes are generally short)
- And as you say, the gap between wedges which seems to have the most noticeable effect on pitch and putt courses, and medium approaches to the green.
- lastly, you may or may not have noticed that on some holes on the pitch and putt courses, where the hole is very short, the game may restrict your club choice to only wedges and if the wind is adverse it can be impossible to reach the hole, even with topspin. I don't think this is the same issue discussed here exactly, but it might be an argument for a slight increase in wedge values on level-up. I'll update to confirm exactly which hole / holes this is apparent on)
These gaps can feel exponential as a player (in my current view) compared to the data of only a 10y increase in differential. You can see this on the driving range - most notably between player levels 2 and 3 on the medium-long and long holes but of course, that does not add hazards to the equation. The issue to consider (I think, at the moment) is whether on a course with harassing conditions, the player has enough options to work out a good shot, although there should be no guaranteed shot - this is golf after all!
This could be a really interesting solution or part solution. I really like the idea of changing the spin and seeing a visual effect on the club distance indicator and minimap, even if indicatively rather than 100% accurate (if that's reasonably possible.) The remaining player calculation for variation might then be the hazards and the wind, especially if the loft angle affected by spin is also affected by wind.
I definitely do think that adding any opportunity to get bonus XP throughout the game is a good idea. Literally, as many things you can think of! But it would be great if the text notification was specific about what you just did to get XP as well as what you earned. The more XP options, the less the overall grind I guess.
On the subject of leaderboards, I don't think I'm a fan of the idea of split leaderboards myself and although I wouldn't moan if that was the way forward, I do think leaderboards IMO should be for the best and also a target for aspiring players. As you say it could be better communicated that you might improve your ability as your XP increases to give players a target to aim for - perhaps the leaderboards are a good place to do this?
However, you mentioned some sort of league system. I don't know what your long term plans are, for the gameplay update and beyond, but if there were actually leagues you can progress through I would probably have a different view about league-appropriate leaderboards.
Going completely off topic now (sorry!) I wonder if you're considering weekly and or monthly challenges or league competitions as part of future updates? As a good current example, a game called Premium Bowling does this very well. Bowling games (like golf games I guess!) have the problem that ultimately the player is trying to do the same think over and over again each turn and seeking perfection. Eventually that repetition becomes boring but in that game there are weekly and monthly tournaments that vary the challenge by changing the bowling conditions (the oil pattern and effect on spin in their case) and also by giving something competitive to aim for. It's kept me hooked somehow, maybe worth a look if you weren't already!
MH, I don't assume that any of these observations are right, and as mentioned, I will play more to see if I can identify some more specific examples if needed. I really hope this is seen as beta (and player progression) feedback from just one player. It would be ideal if when more players reach the max shot level they could share their observations too, or even have a separate beta for max-skill players to test what might work.
It's no secret that I absolutely love this game, I know this because i play it a lot just for fun and enjoyment, not just for progression and achievement. It's also no secret and probably boring now that this is partly due to it absolutely hitting a spot from my young teens where Golfing Greats (Konami) was my go-to cabinet at the local arcade - I swear they never replaced it because I was putting so many 10p in! This game gives me genuine feels of that game plus additional depth and progression and arcade game can never give.
So once again, please know how appreciated this project is to some, you're doing a great job xx
In fact I've done some hugely nerdy stuff mapping out curves and so on from the club values, and there are some nasty lumps and bumps - which can be smoothed out with some tweaks to the numbers. I need to get less hung up on making it exactly like a golf chart (which actually varies from source to source *anyway*) and spend a bit more time making the actual experience more palatable.
As for the split leaderboards, and leagues - I was thinking out loud a bit. These probably won't happen, at least not any time soon.
I'll update the range indicator for the beta/upcoming update, and also fix the pitch n putt selection (which is technically a bug), that's no problem. I'm actually trying to wrap up the update in the next week or so to get it out in time for [REDACTED] which is happening [REDACTED] 😉
Time limited challenges are a great idea. I had vague notions some time back of adding daily challenges, although I don't have time with the current development pace to come up with challenges every day - so that's actually what sort of morphed into the daily streaks. HOWEVER it didn't occur to the squishy grey goo that I could actually reduce it to weekly or monthly challenges. Creating 12 challenges up front then automatically releasing one each month would be very manageable so, assuming I can think of any challenges which aren't grindy and boring, expect them to appear in the future - thanks for the suggestion! 😁
I'm really glad you're enjoying the experience - honestly I would have given up on it a long time ago if it weren't for people such as yourself offering feedback. It really make the game a pleasure to work on (and more fun to play)!
And, ooof... you are your REDACTEDS :) You little tease, you!
Edit: just had an additional thought. Maybe another way to tackle the club gaps is to beef up player capability on certain clubs rather than the club itself, at certain XP level ups? Like in RL golf, some players can hit a 2 iron almost as long as another player can hit a driver. Not sure how this translates to code if at all, but just a thought to add value to level ups
Pun intended? 😆
There's actually a discussion on the last progress update thread about adding more RPG elements for local play, which I find quite interesting. I think it would introduce other ways for people to play if they're less interested in being competitive online.
Good point about that RPG stuff, it should be a separate thing but wouldn't work in leaderboard or pvp competition.
Back to the club differential, I can see you got the point and although I don't want to labour it or influence your choices (as you may well disagree) i did promise to give some more specific examples, so see a few examples below. Before getting there I will say that I've refined my view a little having played with an eye on looking specifically for this and also bearing in mind your very valid point that "I'd also propose that the player could be enticed to play a bit more "skillfully" for want of a better word"
By playing more I found that I continue to get better at working out distances when the variation is high but I also now think the majority of the issues are between the Driver and 3W because on the tee is when you have to take the decision most.
Best specific example of a high differential i found between Wood and Iron choices was course 2 hole 17 with difficult wind and hazards. Other general examples of high differential between any relevant club are:
- course 9 hole 13
- course 10 hole 15
- course 8 hole 1
- course 8 hole 5 - a real stinker because of the island!
- course 8 hole 14 - good example of adverse wind + greenfront hazards
- course 7 hole 15 - if playing direct from tee
- course 5 hole 15
- course 4 holes 4, 6 and 10 (especially with the wind from behind on 10)
- course 4 hole 18 - obviously a purposely very difficult hole because of the green elevation
- course 2 hole 12 - if going direct from tee
- course 2 hole 15 - good example of wind and hazards making the 'reachable' club difficult to handle
I think as well the 50y+ range variation between 3W and driver, it may be exacerbated by the driver characteristics? Like you cant easily land it short or use top or back to stop a shot going long out-of-bounds so easily with range variation from around 60%-90% when a 3W can't even reach.
I should take a breather to point out to other readers that this isn't any kind of complaint, only a discussion, and this issue only really becomes apparent when you have levelled up your club lengths to max, enabling the player to be tempted to go for drives you can't even consider when you start out. Also, I know it's my choice whether to lay up or not (and I do!) but the point of improved club length is to be able to try (but not necessarily succeed at) more risky shots and whether or not that attempt can be made slightly more 'readable' for the player.
On the subject of holes on the Pitch n Putt courses where the maximum club length offered can sometimes not reach the hole which the dev says may be a bug, I've noted problems with:
- course 3 holes 5, 8 and 16
- course 9 holes 6 and 11
Reflecting on the general discussion, I'm still thinking some minor variations could be beneficial between driver and 3W, 5W and 4I, and wedges to 9I but I wouldn't want the dev to make any drastic changes on my feedback alone. What I really do like is the dev's suggestion earlier that a visual indicator, maybe on the power bar and minimap, of the impact on distance when applying spin could be a big but fair step towards equalising the max-XP playability experience without creating an 'easy-mode'
A couple of other random observations from this run-through:
- I think the Sand Wedge suffers a distance impact when the ball is played from the sand or deep rough. There's an argument to say that the displayed distance for the SW when in sand or rough should be 100% as this is what the club is designed for (controversial maybe?)
- How does course 4 hole 7 qualify as a par 4? As well as being super short there are no hazards and the dog-leg is minimal! lol idk, people will complain about anything! :D
Anyways, peace and love, hope this helps
I've also update the stroke indicator so that it reflects any change in distance caused by spin - which is actually pretty minimal on long drives. However it is noticeable on the shorter irons and definitely the wedges.
As a side effect of this I've also been able to make the indicator reflect any shortfall caused by lying in the rough or a bunker, which is a happy accident 😁
Quick question or clarification without trying though, when you say spin is minimal on long drives, do you only mean top and back, because full side spin can pretty much counteract a full side wind with a driver, if I remember correctly? I use side (draw/fade) quite a lot off the tee if i'm not going to attempt the green, to get a best fairways position.
Would I be right in saying that draw and fade dont affect distance in this game, so wont affect the new stroke indicator readings?
I guess I'll find out when I play :)