Lords of Infinity

Lords of Infinity

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eker33 Mar 4, 2023 @ 3:18am
Who did you side with? (Spoilers obviously)
I tried to be neutral as much as possible but ended up siding with Wulfram. Partly because of I agree with his plan to reduce military spending to help the economy and people and partly because the Royalists burned children alive... TWICE. But I'm interested to hear other views.
Last edited by eker33; Mar 4, 2023 @ 3:36am
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Showing 1-15 of 165 comments
VolcanoSheep Mar 4, 2023 @ 3:28am 
Played through twice and both times sided with the royalists.

I'm RPing my character and every run through I've done he's a soldier through and through. The Army needs serious reform and so I completely back the ARC, something wulfram doesn't want.

Tierra is a small nation surrounded on all sides by massive powers and, as seen in lords, those powers are starting to take notice, we need a strong army and an ally. once again Wulfram opposes the treaty that would win us an ally.

As for the children dying, that is unfortunate but was carried out by royalist supporters and both times I took the investigation seriously. The country is descending into civil war and there will be atrocities on both sides, I just think the queen has a brighter future for the country as a whole.

All that besides I'm a loyal officer of the queens Dragoons.
Last edited by VolcanoSheep; Mar 4, 2023 @ 3:29am
eker33 Mar 4, 2023 @ 3:54am 
2
Originally posted by VolcanoSheep:
Tierra is a small nation surrounded on all sides by massive powers and, as seen in lords, those powers are starting to take notice, we need a strong army and an ally. once again Wulfram opposes the treaty that would win us an ally.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't Tierra an island nation? If you're worried about invasion surely the navy is the priority, and Wulfram would accept army reform as long as the war taxes were ended, he doesn't oppose the army he just opposes impoverishing the whole country to pay for it. Also I don't pretend to understand the Kian treaty fully but it's pretty obvious they're trying to use Tierra as a pawn in their rivalry with the elves.

As things stood at the end of Guns of Infinity the country was massively in debt with a failing economy. How is MORE army spending gonna fix that?

Originally posted by VolcanoSheep:
As for the children dying, that is unfortunate but was carried out by royalist supporters and both times I took the investigation seriously. The country is descending into civil war and there will be atrocities on both sides, I just think the queen has a brighter future for the country as a whole.

Except given the surprising professionalism of both the attack on the printer's shop and Wulfram's mansion I'd guess they were carried out by Royal Intelligence. You can't investigate the people who now pull your puppet strings.

Originally posted by VolcanoSheep:
All that besides I'm a loyal officer of the queens Dragoons.

Oh yes of course the "just following orders" approach. That always works :P
Last edited by eker33; Mar 4, 2023 @ 3:54am
VolcanoSheep Mar 4, 2023 @ 4:16am 
It is an island nation yes and the navy is important as well, but when I talk about army reforms I'm talking about things that would make it more efficient and in my opinion less of a drain of money. Things like a logistics corp or removing the incredibly corrupt and inefficient officers that have got their post through nepotism rather than any skill.

On the other hand Wulframs budget would quite literally disband the entire army, leaving the defence of the nation to what amount to peasant militias rather than a standing, professional army. I support lowering the taxes a little, but the drastic change Wulfram wants would hand the nation to its enemies. Instead the lords of the land should focus on modernising the land, just as you can do with your estate. More modern jobs create more money, thus alleviating the issue with the poverty.

As for the Kian treaty, of course they are using us to get at the elves, just as the elves are using Wulfram to get at Kian, but as the queen tells us there have been secret negotiations going on with Kian that could make that treaty far more beneficial to Tierra than it at first appears.

Personally I've never been ordered to fire on unarmed civilians and I don't think I will be as the queen admits in an earlier conversation that her brother sending in the troops to stop the first riot was stupid and the wrong move. She actually gets angry at the choice for a bit.

Wulfram incited a damn rebellion and my character is not going to betray his oath to the Queen.
eker33 Mar 4, 2023 @ 4:31am 
Originally posted by VolcanoSheep:
It is an island nation yes and the navy is important as well, but when I talk about army reforms I'm talking about things that would make it more efficient and in my opinion less of a drain of money. Things like a logistics corp or removing the incredibly corrupt and inefficient officers that have got their post through nepotism rather than any skill.

Yeah that's fair but I think Wulfram would have been willing to accept that. The Cuirassier Colonel who is Wulfram's supporter on the Army Commision isn't necessarily opposed to reform, he just wants moderate inexpensive reform. There's room to negotiate if the King and then Queen was actually interested in negotiating.

Originally posted by VolcanoSheep:
On the other hand Wulframs budget would quite literally disband the entire army, leaving the defence of the nation to what amount to peasant militias rather than a standing, professional army. I support lowering the taxes a little, but the drastic change Wulfram wants would hand the nation to its enemies. Instead the lords of the land should focus on modernising the land, just as you can do with your estate. More modern jobs create more money, thus alleviating the issue with the poverty.

He proposes to reduce the army budget by 2/3, that's not the whole army and there would be room to negotiate to maybe half or something. It would reduce it to pre-war levels, and that seems to have been enough to keep Tierra safe for centuries. Again as long as the navy is strong no enemy can even land on Tierra.

How are the lords going to afford to modernise the land when they're being beggared by ongoing war taxes even though the war is over? Just look at your own financial situation, most of the dilapidation of your estate has been caused by the economic stress of the war effort. Hell if the Queen wanted to keep taxes high but spend the money on infrastructure and poverty-relief I could accept that, but more money to the army helps only the fraction of the population in the military and of course the Queen who can use it as a tool to safeguard her own power.

Originally posted by VolcanoSheep:
Personally I've never been ordered to fire on unarmed civilians and I don't think I will be as the queen admits in an earlier conversation that her brother sending in the troops to stop the first riot was stupid and the wrong move. She actually gets angry at the choice for a bit.

Wulfram incited a damn rebellion and my character is not going to betray his oath to the Queen.

Except Wulfram didn't want it to come to a rebellion. He tried to pass the budget through the Cortes, he kept trying to achieve a peaceful solution. But every time the monarch just vetoed it. Did he eventually incite a rebellion? Yes but not without cause. The murder of his family by Royalists. The suffering of the people both economically and violently at the hands of the monarch's troops. Besides it was the Queen who struck the first blow. Wulfram went into the Cortes with a fully LEGAL petition and she ordered his arrest.
Last edited by eker33; Mar 4, 2023 @ 4:32am
The Queen. I think people starving in the streets and a military dictatorship are cool #evilmaxxing

On a serious note, all my officer saves are Cunarian or Aetorian so I suppose I have regional loyalties. Al least RP wise. Anyways I have not gone into the political branch of the story, but it seems that Wulfram could have come to an understanding with the Queen, at least as some of the other characters suggest.

Also in regards to the naval vs army thing, Tierra has a few sizable neighboring Island nations, one of which is basically anarchic. So maybe some military is necessary. But common wisdom, in the modern world and historically says that unless you are an world power, you have a strong army or strong navy, not both.
VolcanoSheep Mar 4, 2023 @ 4:47am 
Maybe its different in other play throughs but every one of mine the monarch never used a veto until the very end. Every single time his budget was voted down in the chamber, often by quite a big margin, at the end intelligence knew that he had already got a small army behind him and was planning open rebellion, hence why the grenadiers where ready. The bill he proposed would have made him king in all but name and I don't believe he would have handed back power when he found his families killer.

To me that entire thing at the end was just him trying to make himself king and the Queen had every right to veto it.

As for the lords being too impoverished, in my play through I had enough money and ability to balance the debt/loans that my people love me and I'm getting a steady tide of people coming to my estate. I believe that most of the lords would be in a similar situation but would rather fill their own bellies than help. Hence why the common folk are celebrating so much when the queen hangs the traitor lords.

The amry isn't just about physical defence but also projecting power. A modernised, professional army would force the respect of greater powers and thus bring them to the negotiating table rather than just taking what they want. The army Tierra had before kept them safe when other nations seen them as a simple backwards island out on the frontier that where of no consequence, that is no longer the case. A larger army is needed.

Wulframs budget would help in the short term but I genuinely think that under the Queen, with some reasonable advisors, has a far more glorious future and glory for Tierra should make the lives of the commoners easier.
VolcanoSheep Mar 4, 2023 @ 5:05am 
Also on a side not, I'll admit that this is getting into a conspiracy, but it really wouldn't surprise me if the death of Wulframs family had nothing to do with the royalist, but rather someone else trying to push Wulfram into a civil war.

Someone like the Takarans for instance.
FieserMoep Mar 4, 2023 @ 7:57am 
I was playing a somewhat neutral character up until the point where Wulfram plays his hand and links up the reforms to basically force the faction the entrench themselves. He ♥♥♥♥♥♥ the political system and put the final nail into his coffin and lost all support. When the Queen became head of state it then was a no brainer to remain royalist as she is also a force of reform not only army but country where else Wulfram is a man, wronged by fate but utterly on a destructive path.

And then my Lady is a Royalist too, so that put a final end to it.

With a glorious fighting soldier character you basically turn the ARC into pulling a Prussian rearmament under the eyes of other global powers with needle rifles and end up in service of an idealized Queen Victoria. I can live with that.
Originally posted by Ö:
Wulfram obviously. War taxes are absolutely ruining Tierra, and the Royalists don't seem to have any plan whatsoever.
The army reform is useless, Tierra will never ever stand up to Takara or Kian, having a better army would only make it a more tempting target to control.
The Wulframite side has Brockenburg, Emile, Castermaine, the Admiralty club guys etc. All of them way better characters than the one dimensional villains on the queen's side.
The Royalists want to sell the country out to Kian, murder 800 people minimum to appease them and in the end get nothing in return. The Takarans at least help Wulfram.
The Royalists also have the cursed Cazarostas, that's a deal breaker by itself.


Who is Emile?
FieserMoep Mar 4, 2023 @ 10:36am 
The thing I really like - at least for the PoV of my playthrough - is that our MC has no clue of so many things that happen simultaniously and that we only make a choice based upon half truths at best.

Who burned Wulfram-Estate on a day, just convinient enough, as to leave a griefing and wrathwul duke and his decorated relative?

What are the hidden benefits of a trade deal that at face value mostly looks bad?

How truthful is the Government of Takara, shamed by a diplomant of their own and the only friendly elf we met so far? What do they expect in return for their assistance or did they only deliver weapons as to bolster the ego of a rebellion leader enough so another human kingdom would destroy itself, sparing the elves the effort and denying kian the price?

How far did the Queen plan ahead in her ploy to seize power from the traitors and refurbish not only her coffers but ream the country to a point that would make expansion inevitable?

Did the big ship of the line, including the king, really sink by mere accident? An event so extreme that of a crew of 900 or more not a single witness survived?

Same goes for the head diplomant of the country, a man plagued by illness, fated just do die as not to bring good news to his king and to prevent him from navigating the foreign interests of two rivaling super powers.

I really do like that we have to go with our guts and at least I never got the hindsight to know what was truth or fabrication.
eker33 Mar 4, 2023 @ 10:45am 
Originally posted by FieserMoep:
I really do like that we have to go with our guts and at least I never got the hindsight to know what was truth or fabrication.

You know I honestly hadn't considered a lot of this. It does seem like Tarkan and/or Kian might be manipulating things to cause the civil war, so much ♥♥♥♥ happened at the worst possible time.
eker33 Mar 4, 2023 @ 10:50am 
Originally posted by VolcanoSheep:
Someone like the Takarans for instance.

Maybe but it's not exactly unknown for Royal Intelligence to condone killing children (looking at our favourite half-sibling pair) to achieve their goals
eker33 Mar 4, 2023 @ 10:52am 
Originally posted by FieserMoep:
And then my Lady is a Royalist too, so that put a final end to it.

With a glorious fighting soldier character you basically turn the ARC into pulling a Prussian rearmament under the eyes of other global powers with needle rifles and end up in service of an idealized Queen Victoria. I can live with that.

First off: simp. :P

But second of all Terria is not Prussia, it strikes me as more of a Britain. It's an ISLAND nation. It needs a strong navy, which it already has, not a strong army.
FieserMoep Mar 4, 2023 @ 11:19am 
Tierra is mostly fashioned after the UK and our Queen is a Victoria insert, that much is true,

But the whole ACR affair and our possible weapon introduction just SCREAMS prussia after the Seven Year's War and the Reforms spearheaded by Frederick the Great from lessons learned as his "minor" nation managed to stand up to major powers of its time just as Tierra did. Formalized education of Officers, standards to uphold and in general inovations that to this day have shaped the german armed forces traditions - which in turn has influenced in some shape or form pretty much any modern military on this planet.

The Rifle project propossed is pretty much the history of the Dreyse needle gun retold. Where the british empire evaluated it and discarded it for being to complicated, it was Prussia who widely adopted and developed it. Deciding the decicive Austro-Prussian war in its favor and ultimatly ushered in the end of line tactics as the very foundation of continental warfare, laying the very foundation of the German Empire in a series of wars.

This series has taken inspiration from quite a lot historical events and so forth, just as the Church Hussars were pretty much Polish Winged Cavalry and so on.
eker33 Mar 4, 2023 @ 11:30am 
Originally posted by FieserMoep:
But the whole ACR affair and our possible weapon introduction just SCREAMS prussia after the Seven Year's War and the Reforms spearheaded by Frederick the Great from lessons learned as his "minor" nation managed to stand up to major powers of its time just as Tierra did. Formalized education of Officers, standards to uphold and in general inovations that to this day have shaped the german armed forces traditions - which in turn has influenced in some shape or form pretty much any modern military on this planet.

I don't deny the army reforms could make the Tierran army powerful... but what for?! Tierra is an island nation. The only reason it would need a strong army is to A: put down internal dissent (likely given how tyrannical the Queen is) or B: start conquering other countries, spending yet more lives and money for the Queen's own self-aggrandisement
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