A balance suggestion for Khorne

[brain]

Hello Cyanide and other Bloodbowlers,
as most of you know the current Khorne roster in Chaos edition is looked upon as one of the weaker if not weakest teams. That is why I am here to make (most likely already mentioned) suggestions to trade 'Horns' on the 'Bloodletter Daemons' for 'Claws'.
There's a few reasons for this:
Firstly, the team already has enough Horns and can't make use of all of them enough to make it worth the cost. Looking at the develelopment options for this positional tells us that it's optimal to go for POMB + JU with the ability to freely chose Block/Tackle/Dodge/Wrestle on the way. The only problem here is that AV7 makes someone on the ground so lovely to boot that the risk is barely worth it. Claws would increase the chance of a casualty enough to make Piling On viable in my opinion. The last reason is a fluff reason: As far as I'm aware there is no record of Khorne Daemons using their Horns for combat, most of them are known for their razorsharp Claws and teeth.
TL;DR: Claws instead of Horns on Bloodletters to make the team possibly viable in BB2 (or this edition).

[Les White]

Nope.

The team that created the Khorne roster was told not to make another bash-chaos roster. Claws creates this problem.

Dode was on that team, and he swings by here every once in awhile. I'm sure he can give you a better explanation, but the basic answer is that they didn't want another straight up bash team that would end up like Chaos completely dominating the high end with killers. Horns keeps the team strong enough to do combat, but not so much that they could turn into wrecking balls on every player.

[brain]

If you dont build them bash they turn out as AG3 Elves or (fun) Pact without Mutations. That doesn't feel right either.

[Les White]

Yup, which is why they're a terrible team. But, that's what they were designed as, because the game doesn't need more Chaos/Nurgle/Necro.

[Dode]

Khorne was intended as a Tier 1.5 team. That means that their win% was intended to be similar to that of Pact or Underworld, at about 40-50%. Tier 1 teams (the majority) are at 45-55%. The data I have from several thousand games in MM and a good few hundred in leagues puts Khorne in Tier 1.5 pretty well, so we hit that performance aim. Your personal experience with them may differ, but I suggest that if you are finding them particularly difficult that you aren't using them optimally, and a change of tactics might be in order.

The reason we went T1.5 was for the metagame. We didn't want them to be overpowered as that would have an effect on the wider gameplay, so aiming for a slightly below-par strength negated that issue. It's far easier to buff a team if they end up underpowered than to nerf a team which is overpowered and have to fix the metagame.

While the team is bashy it's not straight-up bash. Regardless on peoples' thoughts on the fluffiness or otherwise, what the game does not need is another stand-and-fight bash team which relies on CPOMB to remove players. There's enough of that already. We actually took an existing "custom" team as the basis for this (Savage Orcs) and "moulded" them to give them the flavour we were looking for, which was a team which would break cages and create maneuver, using the sidelines to good effect. This team does that very well.

We also wanted the Thirster to be almost a requirement. Regardless of thoughts on the statlines themselves (yes, we all know a real Thirster wouldn't leave the stadium standing) the Thirster is a superb piece out of the box, with very low Blitz action failure rates due to Juggs, and excellent chances of removing opponent players and big guys due to a combination of Horns, Claw and later MB.

Given the above (again, regardless of your thoughts on the fluff side) we hit the targets pretty well. As such, a buff is not required at all.

Had the team needed a buff Claw was not the one we would have given it for the reason stated above (not another CPOMB team). Had it been required there were several options up for consideration:
1. Regen on the Heralds. This would have been a longer-term buff if the team was really dropping off in the long term as it would have increased skill retention. It would also have required a slight increase in Herald cost.
2. ST increase on the Herald. This would have been an overall buff if the team were underperforming across the board. It would also have necessitated an increase in cost.
3. RR cost reduction. A short-mid term buff which would have allowed faster negation of the Frenzy turnover problem (one we anticipated and wanted in).
A consideration for all the above was that the team needed to be viable at all TVs, so a tournament 1000TV team had to be usable, and the costings we went for both reflected the value of the players and allowed for several viable 1000TV teams.

Hopefully that helps you understand our decision-making. There are some things I can't say due to NDAs etc, but if you do have any further questions then please ask and I will do what I can to answer.

tl;dr: the data shows that no buff is required, and if it were then the suggested one is not what we would have gone for.

[brain]

Very interesting, thanks for the answer.
Right as I read Savage Orcs (which is a roster I've seen a few times before) my mind went 'but ST4!' although I feel that strength is not what the team is lacking. I also feel that at mid TV (if SPP is focused a bit) the team performs decently well. The proposed lower RR cost is actually a really great idea wich wouldn't even have crossed my mind. My biggest problem is the slow start they seem to have because Frenzy is deadly to your on team at low TV.

Now the fact that you adopted and varied an unofficial roster for this team makes me want to look up some Bretonnian rosters again...

[cashcat]

And it's a little nitpick but it helps to realize that not every team is optimized to be balanced and it seems to be flavor over actual balance. Which is cool, beating a chaos dwarf team with a halfling team really should bring shame to that coach that got beat.

Here with Khorne it also seems to be that way. We know that khorne isn't exactly the sanest people in the lot and all this frenzy spam is there as testament. Now, could it use some blitzers and stuff? Yeah, but as far as fine balancing it goes that's out in the general philosphy of thing.

[Alimak]

Dode, you made a mistake. You said you wanted to avoid the typical bashy team but you gave nothing to khorne demons instead of claws, teeth or wathever they had.

You gave AV7 to the bloodletter, an armor suiting for an amazon/ghoul/goblin/norse but without even dodge or block it's so weak. They regenerate but they get so much beatings they are almost useless and die often. By the time they become blodgers the others team have guard mighty blow/tackle and they're down each time they get hit.

You gave AV8 to the heralds with st3 and no skill. By the time they get block guard, as it was intended the others team have 2 more skills on their blitzers and they feel pale in comparaison.

They are unmanageable beastmen whose sole interest are when they blitz but we usually blitz with the BT, why would you give horns and juggernaut instead of block/dodge for the positionnals of this team ?

Gladiators have AV8 too, they get access to G and ... Pass lol. What for ? I'd understand if they were positionnal but they are the linemen, they're here to take the beatings and be in the melee.

This team need guard so much on the linemen but relies on double for it...stupid idead when other bashy team have a lot of guard to counter yours and overguard you easy. What is their advantage over dark elves linemen for example ? -1AG and no access to Agility skills.
You can do that for every linemen in this game.

They are at the same level of zombies because pass skill is almost useless for a lineman but they cost 1.5 zombie price.

They should have access to G/S not G/P for their price...

Conclusion : Weak AV, no ST4, no AG4, no Block/dodge at start, no sure hands player, Expensive players (sic), no regen for all, nothing... just random frenezy rolls and skills that you can use 1 time per turn, but you don't because you blitz with the only NICE player in this team, the Bloodthirster.

I play this team for a long time now, and have one around 1800. The bloodletters and herald never make it to the lvl4 and i have to remake them over and over. Almost nobody make it to lvl 4 they're in the bashy game with coward bodies.

I'm in the 1800 TV zone against monster teams. As soon as the bloodthirster is out they get a enormous beating and show their weakness.

So if you intend to make them for Blood bowl 2 either you give them block or dodge, or AV9 or ST4 players, because as it is they are broken.

You didn't want chaos like or ST4 bashy, then give them skills because chaos has no skill at the beginning but 4 AV9 ST4 instead and a mino, and access to mutations.

[Dode]

The data suggests you're wrong: khorne are performing in the middle of T1.5 in both leagues and mm. They are not intended to be as strong as most of the other teams.

[Alimak]

They can win matches, you just watch the win/loss rate. I talk about playing them. i start another team of Khorne because i love them despite the fact i think they are underpowered just because i want to get new level up rolls.


You said "While the team is bashy it's not straight-up bash" but how is it bashy ? can you explain except the bloodthirster who is as bashy as a big guy should be, what is bashy in this team ?

Middle/low AV, linemen with S access on double only, no ST4...

[Dode]

Frenzy = extra blocks = bashy. Some people were actually concerned the team would be too bashy. Horns = ST4 blitzes with Juggs, which is pretty bashy.

Think bashing for positioning as opposed to bashing for cas. You can surf someone from the centre of the pitch in a single turn, for example.

As for what we didn't want, it was another Orc/Dorf/Chaos team with access to MB/Guard on everyone. That's dull, and we wanted interesting. The fact that you love them suggests we did ok by you ;)

[WingedKagouti]

Originally posted by Le Chevalier Noir:

You said "While the team is bashy it's not straight-up bash" but how is it bashy ? can you explain except the bloodthirster who is as bashy as a big guy should be, what is bashy in this team ?

If you set up and engage in a thoughtful manner, you'll find that you get up to 1.5-2x as many "safe" blocks as your opponent if you have a similar TV. And look for opportunities to teach your opponent to respect and fear Frenzy on the sidelines, then arrange for his players to be crowd surfed from the center.

Khorne Daemons are really a "Bash Smarter, Not Harder" team, as long as we're not talking about the centerpiece of their team. While you do need to think about what you try to kill with the Bloodthirster, it is one of the hardest hitting players you can field for any team and it is a reliable (for a Big Guy) murder machine even at level 1.

You basically need to play a more tactical bashing game, like you would with Amazons. Where the girls rely on Dodge to position themselves, Khorne Daemons need to use Frenzy to mess up their opponents' positioning.

[Alimak]

Ok let's admit they're bashy because they hit a lot more than other team with frenezy.

But horns and juggernaut are just for blitz. Problem is that you blitz with the BT 95% of the time, that's just redundant skills on bloodletters and heralds.

Pit fighters should have at least Block at start like norse linemen. And pass skill is not useful for them. Will you deny it ?

And why no regen for the heralds ? They are heroes among the Bloodletters, do they loose their ability to regen when they become heroic ?

I agree on many things you said but something is wrong with this team start skills and skill access.

Please rethink it for BB2 :=)

[Les White]

Originally posted by Le Chevalier Noir:

Please rethink it for BB2 :=)

Dode ain't in charge of BB2.

[Dode]

The things you keep saying are wrong with the team are exactly as intended. Lots of bloat on blitz skills, vulnerable linemen, that kind of thing all create a sub par team but one which does actually create opportunities due to the ubiquitous ability to blitz well. In short, they're fine as they are and are, I believe, unlikely to be adjusted if they even make it in to BB2 (not that it's my decision).

[DarthPhysicist]

God i hope they make it to BB2... exactly as they are.

i think starting them with block would be completely overpowering and make their linement too expensive. It would be a Norse Zerks without the jump up.