Elizabeth Fight

[weester9]

What tools do you recommend for the Elizabeth fight? Right now, I'm using a TI-84 calculator to figure out how many gems I need to make enough incense to get my personas to 99 in all stats.

[BothDoorsCares]

If you want to just beat her, you just really need 1 persona, which is hilarious.

You only need a decent fire build that has repel strike, boost and amp and inferno and endure + enduring soul.

Get concentrate items by getting the plant from Rafflesia that gives charge/concentrate plants. And some fire gems to line up things perfectly.

[weester9]

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

If you want to just beat her, you just really need 1 persona, which is hilarious.

You only need a decent fire build that has repel strike, boost and amp and inferno and endure + enduring soul.

Get concentrate items by getting the plant from Rafflesia that gives charge/concentrate plants. And some fire gems to line up things perfectly.

You can't have repel tho bc then it does the velvet megidolaon

[BothDoorsCares]

Originally posted by weester9:

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

If you want to just beat her, you just really need 1 persona, which is hilarious.

You only need a decent fire build that has repel strike, boost and amp and inferno and endure + enduring soul.

Get concentrate items by getting the plant from Rafflesia that gives charge/concentrate plants. And some fire gems to line up things perfectly.

You can't have repel tho bc then it does the velvet megidolaon

Oh that's nothing to worry about, you can force her to skip Thor by using fire spells when she just used Jack Frost. That's exactly why I said do a fire build.

The current guides do not mention this mechanic about switching up the persona used if you hit her "Vulnerability". Or at least not in depth. That's why I'm thinking of writing a guide for her myself later down the line.

[weester9]

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

Originally posted by weester9:

You can't have repel tho bc then it does the velvet megidolaon

Oh that's nothing to worry about, you can force her to skip Thor by using fire spells when she just used Jack Frost. That's exactly why I said do a fire build.

The current guides do not mention this mechanic about switching up the persona used if you hit her "Vulnerability". Or at least not in depth. That's why I'm thinking of writing a guide for her myself later down the line.

Interesting. If you do, I'll be sure to look into it.

[Green.Sliche]

She has like 3 stages so unless you are prepared, which means having good equipment and proper personas ( one may not be enough unless you play on lower difficulties or intend to ''cheese'' the fight ) you will end up getting Megidolaon'ed to your next life.

Her persona rotation stages can be ''skipped'' if you hit her currently equipped persona's ''native weakness'' which is kinda obvious, so long you don't accidentally null, repel or absorb the attack of her next persona in the roster you should be fine.

I'd say the trickiest part is her 3rd phase where you can get screwed by either having your Enduring Soul / Endure consumed by Alice's insta-kill ability prematurely or going beyond half health without having Enduring Soul / Endure and specific Theurgy prepared. She can also randomly switch personas there so you will need to stay on persona that has no nulls, repels or drains by default. There are only two such personas - Chi Yu and Yurlungur which you can get without getting max social links or using DLC personas. Getting all social links will unlock a special version of Orpheus that resists everything and can inherit almost all abilities that you will need in the fight against her.

[BothDoorsCares]

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

She has like 3 stages so unless you are prepared, which means having good equipment and proper personas ( one may not be enough unless you play on lower difficulties or intend to ''cheese'' the fight ) you will end up getting Megidolaon'ed to your next life.

Her persona rotation stages can be ''skipped'' if you hit her currently equipped persona's ''native weakness'' which is kinda obvious, so long you don't accidentally null, repel or absorb the attack of her next persona in the roster you should be fine.

I'd say the trickiest part is her 3rd phase where you can get screwed by either having your Enduring Soul / Endure consumed by Alice's insta-kill ability prematurely or going beyond half health without having Enduring Soul / Endure and specific Theurgy prepared. She can also randomly switch personas there so you will need to stay on persona that has no nulls, repels or drains by default. There are only two such personas - Chi Yu and Yurlungur which you can get without getting max social links or using DLC personas. Getting all social links will unlock a special version of Orpheus that resists everything and can inherit almost all abilities that you will need in the fight against her.

No one mapped out the 3rd phase properly yet but it is pattern-based. Just from observations I've seen with fighting her, the only thing that needs resist all are your support personas. Your striking personas can null certain things due to how those "native weakness" works, as you put it.

For example, you don't really need to care about nulling fire on the persona using Thunder Reign, because the best time to use it is just after she used Cu Chullain. And the moves she does after she uses that persona in 1st and 3rd phase are Light and Ice (It would be Light and Dark if you didn't strike the "native weakness" he has). This also tells what you want to resist in the personas you're using. So something like Oberon is near perfect to use as a Thunder Reign user against her, assuming resist ice is used.

Also Chi You and Yurlungur are Max Tower and Max Temperance. A persona that doesn't null anything and no weaknesses would be someone like Oni.

[Green.Sliche]

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

She has like 3 stages so unless you are prepared, which means having good equipment and proper personas ( one may not be enough unless you play on lower difficulties or intend to ''cheese'' the fight ) you will end up getting Megidolaon'ed to your next life.

Her persona rotation stages can be ''skipped'' if you hit her currently equipped persona's ''native weakness'' which is kinda obvious, so long you don't accidentally null, repel or absorb the attack of her next persona in the roster you should be fine.

I'd say the trickiest part is her 3rd phase where you can get screwed by either having your Enduring Soul / Endure consumed by Alice's insta-kill ability prematurely or going beyond half health without having Enduring Soul / Endure and specific Theurgy prepared. She can also randomly switch personas there so you will need to stay on persona that has no nulls, repels or drains by default. There are only two such personas - Chi Yu and Yurlungur which you can get without getting max social links or using DLC personas. Getting all social links will unlock a special version of Orpheus that resists everything and can inherit almost all abilities that you will need in the fight against her.

No one mapped out the 3rd phase properly yet but it is pattern-based. Just from observations I've seen with fighting her, the only thing that needs resist all are your support personas. Your striking personas can null certain things due to how those "native weakness" works, as you put it.

For example, you don't really need to care about nulling fire on the persona using Thunder Reign, because the best time to use it is just after she used Cu Chullain. And the moves she does after she uses that persona in 1st and 3rd phase are Light and Ice (It would be Light and Dark if you didn't strike the "native weakness" he has). This also tells what you want to resist in the personas you're using. So something like Oberon is near perfect to use as a Thunder Reign user against her, assuming resist ice is used.

Also Chi You and Yurlungur are Max Tower and Max Temperance. A persona that doesn't null anything and no weaknesses would be someone like Oni.

I had a case where she just swapped back to Sutr randomly and persona I had equipped was draining fire. From that point I figured it's better be safe as replaying those two phases again isn't really a fun experience, especially since it was my first blind playthrough on Merciless without those OP DLC stuff.

Chi has like 2 resists and 1 weakness where Yurlungur has 3 resists and 1 weakness. If you dedicate one slot to weakness cover you get a decent persona for third phase. It's more of poor man's choice compared to something like special Orpheus or DLC stuff. I didn't bother with Oni because at that time I didn't have decent skill cards and Oni as persona wasn't that much of the use to me.

Also I noticed that the same element does different amount of damage to different personas - like the fire damage is huge when used on Jack Frost but is significantly reduced when used on Elizabeth's other personas.

I personally went for Skadi for max ice damage since she gets 1 target Severe Ice Damage, Norn for max wind damage for 1 target Severe Wind Damage and Thanatos for dark damage ( not severe though, I haven't found single target severe dark damage ). Nebiros and Masakdo where my Concentrate / Debiliate / Heat Riser turns. Had to dedicate 1 slot for Regenerate 3 and with Ali Dance Boots it was mostly enough to last and never spend any turn on heal up. Third Phase was tricky because I couldn't risk having Elizabeth do the random switch and mess everything up. The last bit required precision and HP calculation but with a scapegoat Persona that has Endure it all ended well.

[BothDoorsCares]

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

No one mapped out the 3rd phase properly yet but it is pattern-based. Just from observations I've seen with fighting her, the only thing that needs resist all are your support personas. Your striking personas can null certain things due to how those "native weakness" works, as you put it.

For example, you don't really need to care about nulling fire on the persona using Thunder Reign, because the best time to use it is just after she used Cu Chullain. And the moves she does after she uses that persona in 1st and 3rd phase are Light and Ice (It would be Light and Dark if you didn't strike the "native weakness" he has). This also tells what you want to resist in the personas you're using. So something like Oberon is near perfect to use as a Thunder Reign user against her, assuming resist ice is used.

Also Chi You and Yurlungur are Max Tower and Max Temperance. A persona that doesn't null anything and no weaknesses would be someone like Oni.

I had a case where she just swapped back to Sutr randomly and persona I had equipped was draining fire. From that point I figured it's better be safe as replaying those two phases again isn't really a fun experience, especially since it was my first blind playthrough on Merciless without those OP DLC stuff.

Chi has like 2 resists and 1 weakness where Yurlungur has 3 resists and 1 weakness. If you dedicate one slot to weakness cover you get a decent persona for third phase. It's more of poor man's choice compared to something like special Orpheus or DLC stuff. I didn't bother with Oni because at that time I didn't have decent skill cards and Oni as persona wasn't that much of the use to me.

Also I noticed that the same element does different amount of damage to different personas - like the fire damage is huge when used on Jack Frost but is significantly reduced when used on Elizabeth's other personas.

I personally went for Skadi for max ice damage since she gets 1 target Severe Ice Damage, Norn for max wind damage for 1 target Severe Wind Damage and Thanatos for dark damage ( not severe though, I haven't found single target severe dark damage ). Nebiros and Masakdo where my Concentrate / Debiliate / Heat Riser turns. Had to dedicate 1 slot for Regenerate 3 and with Ali Dance Boots it was mostly enough to last and never spend any turn on heal up. Third Phase was tricky because I couldn't risk having Elizabeth do the random switch and mess everything up. The last bit required precision and HP calculation but with a scapegoat Persona that has Endure it all ended well.

I'm guessing that you hit fire before she uses fire back because she used Jack Frost last. That's actually expected. It was one of the instances where I noticed that the 3rd phase is completely pattern based. Although it is a complete pain to completely map out. I'll probably do that at some point myself. But for now, I know for a fact that using elec when she uses Cu Chullain last in 3rd phase will do light/ice. And using fire when she uses Jack Frost last will do elec/fire instead of elec/wind. That or slash from Surt.

Well if we look at what we have, it's better to pick a persona with no resist phys stuff since we have a cover all resist phys passive. And we want something that has a lot of resist magic. If you ask me, using something like Saki Mitama, Narcissus or Baal Zebul is pretty solid, especially for the support build to use.

That property you mentioned has always been in her fights since in the original. Some people call it "half-weakness" or like you said, "native weakness". Personally I call it "vulnerability". The main gist is that it's the element that the persona she used last is traditionally weak to. Deals double damage now, before it was just 1.5x. And now it shifts the persona she uses next, although what it shifts to is predictable so it can still be planned against.

My roster went like this. Fire Messiah, Ice Thanatos, Elec Oberon, WInd Telos. And it did perfectly fine. I'm guessing that I just got lucky with my picks because it did not have any problems with her shifting persona mechanic when you hit a vulnerability. Pretty glad because of that, honestly. Hopefully word spreads out about how these mechanics work more.

[Green.Sliche]

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

I had a case where she just swapped back to Sutr randomly and persona I had equipped was draining fire. From that point I figured it's better be safe as replaying those two phases again isn't really a fun experience, especially since it was my first blind playthrough on Merciless without those OP DLC stuff.

Chi has like 2 resists and 1 weakness where Yurlungur has 3 resists and 1 weakness. If you dedicate one slot to weakness cover you get a decent persona for third phase. It's more of poor man's choice compared to something like special Orpheus or DLC stuff. I didn't bother with Oni because at that time I didn't have decent skill cards and Oni as persona wasn't that much of the use to me.

Also I noticed that the same element does different amount of damage to different personas - like the fire damage is huge when used on Jack Frost but is significantly reduced when used on Elizabeth's other personas.

I personally went for Skadi for max ice damage since she gets 1 target Severe Ice Damage, Norn for max wind damage for 1 target Severe Wind Damage and Thanatos for dark damage ( not severe though, I haven't found single target severe dark damage ). Nebiros and Masakdo where my Concentrate / Debiliate / Heat Riser turns. Had to dedicate 1 slot for Regenerate 3 and with Ali Dance Boots it was mostly enough to last and never spend any turn on heal up. Third Phase was tricky because I couldn't risk having Elizabeth do the random switch and mess everything up. The last bit required precision and HP calculation but with a scapegoat Persona that has Endure it all ended well.

I'm guessing that you hit fire before she uses fire back because she used Jack Frost last. That's actually expected. It was one of the instances where I noticed that the 3rd phase is completely pattern based. Although it is a complete pain to completely map out. I'll probably do that at some point myself. But for now, I know for a fact that using elec when she uses Cu Chullain last in 3rd phase will do light/ice. And using fire when she uses Jack Frost last will do elec/fire instead of elec/wind. That or slash from Surt.

Well if we look at what we have, it's better to pick a persona with no resist phys stuff since we have a cover all resist phys passive. And we want something that has a lot of resist magic. If you ask me, using something like Saki Mitama, Narcissus or Baal Zebul is pretty solid, especially for the support build to use.

That property you mentioned has always been in her fights since in the original. Some people call it "half-weakness" or like you said, "native weakness". Personally I call it "vulnerability". The main gist is that it's the element that the persona she used last is traditionally weak to. Deals double damage now, before it was just 1.5x. And now it shifts the persona she uses next, although what it shifts to is predictable so it can still be planned against.

My roster went like this. Fire Messiah, Ice Thanatos, Elec Oberon, WInd Telos. And it did perfectly fine. I'm guessing that I just got lucky with my picks because it did not have any problems with her shifting persona mechanic when you hit a vulnerability. Pretty glad because of that, honestly. Hopefully word spreads out about how these mechanics work more.

To me, good gear also made the fight more manageable. The Sword that boosts magic, armor that reduces magic damage and Ali-Dance boots made fight far more manageable. Sword made it easier to progress to next phases and pass phase 2 more reliably, armor allowed to survive ( divine pillar didn't work that well, probably would go better with special Orpheus though ) and boots were amazing, especially when they triggered few times in a row or against Masakado's Megidolaon blasts. I also added Null All Ailment accessory because her Nebiros persona was hitting confusion spell like 99% of time regardless of who I had summoned at that moment, which in turn would cause me to waste even more turns and I didn't want to consume extra slot for Insta-Heal passive on every persona.

[BothDoorsCares]

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

I'm guessing that you hit fire before she uses fire back because she used Jack Frost last. That's actually expected. It was one of the instances where I noticed that the 3rd phase is completely pattern based. Although it is a complete pain to completely map out. I'll probably do that at some point myself. But for now, I know for a fact that using elec when she uses Cu Chullain last in 3rd phase will do light/ice. And using fire when she uses Jack Frost last will do elec/fire instead of elec/wind. That or slash from Surt.

Well if we look at what we have, it's better to pick a persona with no resist phys stuff since we have a cover all resist phys passive. And we want something that has a lot of resist magic. If you ask me, using something like Saki Mitama, Narcissus or Baal Zebul is pretty solid, especially for the support build to use.

That property you mentioned has always been in her fights since in the original. Some people call it "half-weakness" or like you said, "native weakness". Personally I call it "vulnerability". The main gist is that it's the element that the persona she used last is traditionally weak to. Deals double damage now, before it was just 1.5x. And now it shifts the persona she uses next, although what it shifts to is predictable so it can still be planned against.

My roster went like this. Fire Messiah, Ice Thanatos, Elec Oberon, WInd Telos. And it did perfectly fine. I'm guessing that I just got lucky with my picks because it did not have any problems with her shifting persona mechanic when you hit a vulnerability. Pretty glad because of that, honestly. Hopefully word spreads out about how these mechanics work more.

To me, good gear also made the fight more manageable. The Sword that boosts magic, armor that reduces magic damage and Ali-Dance boots made fight far more manageable. Sword made it easier to progress to next phases and pass phase 2 more reliably, armor allowed to survive ( divine pillar didn't work that well, probably would go better with special Orpheus though ) and boots were amazing, especially when they triggered few times in a row or against Masakado's Megidolaon blasts. I also added Null All Ailment accessory because her Nebiros persona was hitting confusion spell like 99% of time regardless of who I had summoned at that moment, which in turn would cause me to waste even more turns and I didn't want to consume extra slot for Insta-Heal passive on every persona.

Honestly Divine Pillar is simply nerfing yourself unless you know what you're doing (adding regens to the personas used). So basically it only works best if you have good personas made. Even in the original this is the case, it just became popular for some reason when Ali Dance has always been better generally at the start. Those are basically the best gear there is for the fight, yeah.

[Green.Sliche]

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

To me, good gear also made the fight more manageable. The Sword that boosts magic, armor that reduces magic damage and Ali-Dance boots made fight far more manageable. Sword made it easier to progress to next phases and pass phase 2 more reliably, armor allowed to survive ( divine pillar didn't work that well, probably would go better with special Orpheus though ) and boots were amazing, especially when they triggered few times in a row or against Masakado's Megidolaon blasts. I also added Null All Ailment accessory because her Nebiros persona was hitting confusion spell like 99% of time regardless of who I had summoned at that moment, which in turn would cause me to waste even more turns and I didn't want to consume extra slot for Insta-Heal passive on every persona.

Honestly Divine Pillar is simply nerfing yourself unless you know what you're doing (adding regens to the personas used). So basically it only works best if you have good personas made. Even in the original this is the case, it just became popular for some reason when Ali Dance has always been better generally at the start. Those are basically the best gear there is for the fight, yeah.

Thing is, when it comes to Elizabeth fight, there are few things that player likely won't figure out by self that are essential to have or else it can become almost impossible to beat. In my case, I almost missed the requirements for Lucifer Persona, which automatically make the entire fight un-doable to me and that being on Merciless Difficulty where you can't just rely on going for New Game plus anymore, making all the grind and work wasted. I simply couldn't see myself doing it all over again for another 100 hours almost from the scratch. Compared to P4 and P5, this feels a bit too cruel. I'd wish they addressed Merciless Difficulty and made it a bit more fair than that.

[Yürei]

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

Honestly Divine Pillar is simply nerfing yourself unless you know what you're doing (adding regens to the personas used). So basically it only works best if you have good personas made. Even in the original this is the case, it just became popular for some reason when Ali Dance has always been better generally at the start. Those are basically the best gear there is for the fight, yeah.

Thing is, when it comes to Elizabeth fight, there are few things that player likely won't figure out by self that are essential to have or else it can become almost impossible to beat. In my case, I almost missed the requirements for Lucifer Persona, which automatically make the entire fight un-doable to me and that being on Merciless Difficulty where you can't just rely on going for New Game plus anymore, making all the grind and work wasted. I simply couldn't see myself doing it all over again for another 100 hours almost from the scratch. Compared to P4 and P5, this feels a bit too cruel. I'd wish they addressed Merciless Difficulty and made it a bit more fair than that.

You know whats cruel? Nerfing Magic Mastery (Magic Skill up) and still keeping it non inheritable.

[BothDoorsCares]

Originally posted by Yürei:

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

Thing is, when it comes to Elizabeth fight, there are few things that player likely won't figure out by self that are essential to have or else it can become almost impossible to beat. In my case, I almost missed the requirements for Lucifer Persona, which automatically make the entire fight un-doable to me and that being on Merciless Difficulty where you can't just rely on going for New Game plus anymore, making all the grind and work wasted. I simply couldn't see myself doing it all over again for another 100 hours almost from the scratch. Compared to P4 and P5, this feels a bit too cruel. I'd wish they addressed Merciless Difficulty and made it a bit more fair than that.

You know whats cruel? Nerfing Magic Mastery (Magic Skill up) and still keeping it non inheritable.

What do you mean? Magic Ability and MSU are identical but is now inheritable. Not sure why but MSU is incorrectly referred as 50% magic boost by people sometimes. It is 25%.

Magic Mastery being mutation only and uninheritable is very masochistic though. But it as a skill only started from P5 but is unobtainable. Reload is its debut as an obtainable skill.

[BothDoorsCares]

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

Honestly Divine Pillar is simply nerfing yourself unless you know what you're doing (adding regens to the personas used). So basically it only works best if you have good personas made. Even in the original this is the case, it just became popular for some reason when Ali Dance has always been better generally at the start. Those are basically the best gear there is for the fight, yeah.

Thing is, when it comes to Elizabeth fight, there are few things that player likely won't figure out by self that are essential to have or else it can become almost impossible to beat. In my case, I almost missed the requirements for Lucifer Persona, which automatically make the entire fight un-doable to me and that being on Merciless Difficulty where you can't just rely on going for New Game plus anymore, making all the grind and work wasted. I simply couldn't see myself doing it all over again for another 100 hours almost from the scratch. Compared to P4 and P5, this feels a bit too cruel. I'd wish they addressed Merciless Difficulty and made it a bit more fair than that.

That's true. Although it is pretty much expected for everyone to not know how the fight works in its entirety for the release. Good guides only comes out after some time, after all. Figuring it out yourself is part of the allure for this time period. People build off of each other's knowledge until something very solid comes out.

[Yürei]

Originally posted by BothDoorsCares:

Originally posted by Yürei:

You know whats cruel? Nerfing Magic Mastery (Magic Skill up) and still keeping it non inheritable.

What do you mean? Magic Ability and MSU are identical but is now inheritable. Not sure why but MSU is incorrectly referred as 50% magic boost by people sometimes. It is 25%.

Magic Mastery being mutation only and uninheritable is very masochistic though. But it as a skill only started from P5 but is unobtainable. Reload is its debut as an obtainable skill.

Magic Ability is 25%. Isn't Magic Skill up 50%? I get that originally Messiah had Magic Skill Up, but its been changed to Magic Ability (25%) and Magic Mastery (50%) was added to the Skill Mutation pool.