hot take: the tactics systems works way better than direct commands

[Kate Hanami]

so many people hates the tactics without realising they were using it wrong
and the games after took the ubisoft route and over-corrected the "issue" by overly simplifying it or outright remove it

however, not many people know during the first few weeks, your party members explains exactly what each tactic does and how to best use them
the trailers shows the tactics submenu still present in the battle menu for the D-pad down button, but only showcased the party member being controlled and not how the tactics works

(for the love of love, talk to Yukari every night and she will give you instructions for the battle system far better than any tutorial)

if you know how use the tactics properly, you'll never be catch with your pants down, the issue was people just left them to act freely or heal/support for the whole game and never bother to learn how to use it and just left to complain when the system didn't worked

the only thing I can say is the issue with the original tactics was a disconnect between what the CPU was programmed to do and what the players thought it should do instead

[AngryChair]

引用自 Kate Hanami：

引用自 AngryChair：

That's exactly what im saying, there's no "using that" to my advantage, i'm saying there're a lot of actions i can make in a fight, or a mix of them that can't be contained in a single tactic. There is no "knock down and heal/cure ailment/guard/use a soul food to recover MP" or "prioritize debuffing over healing" or "attack and buff every 3 turns". I can lose control of myself and my healer and the rest won't help me because they are stuck with full assault, knock down, or act freely that makes mitsuru cast marin karin 90% of the time.

You can't just call a system like that great. It's playable sure, but in many cases leads to frustration, EVEN IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM there are a lot of things out of your control. And better or worse isn't even debatable, there is not a single thing in favor of tactics over complete control over your party my dude, but you are entitled to your opinion and let's just leave it at that. Happy holidays

you should give Final Fantasy XII a a whirl
the gambit system is exactly what you just said
alas there's not gambit system in persona;
my only suggestion is try to learn how to use it, it have it's flaws but this system is far greater than most people give it credit for
play will direct control or play with tactics, is not going to ruin the game if you try the first few floors or the toothpastetower with the knowledge of how the tactics work instead of going with "it will do the thing I don't need at the worst possible time, mindset

(a VR game where you can control your character and their persona would be great too, but it would need to have a great tactics system or no party members)

I did and it's actually one of my favorite FFs, even gambits have it's flaws but it's still an a fun and unique type of gameplay, but tactics aren't.

It doesn't ruin the experience but it sure holds it back, specially considering P1 & P2 had direct controls and then they went for this. You can enjoy the tactic system and thats okay but it's getting the treatment it deserves. Your only argument is that people didn't like it because they never learned how to properly use them, but the thing they just don't enjoy having their actions locked to a single tactic that can only be changed during the MCs turn.

[Kate Hanami]

引用自 AngryChair：

引用自 Kate Hanami：

you should give Final Fantasy XII a a whirl
the gambit system is exactly what you just said
alas there's not gambit system in persona;
my only suggestion is try to learn how to use it, it have it's flaws but this system is far greater than most people give it credit for
play will direct control or play with tactics, is not going to ruin the game if you try the first few floors or the toothpastetower with the knowledge of how the tactics work instead of going with "it will do the thing I don't need at the worst possible time, mindset

(a VR game where you can control your character and their persona would be great too, but it would need to have a great tactics system or no party members)

I did and it's actually one of my favorite FFs, even gambits have it's flaws but it's still an a fun and unique type of gameplay, but tactics aren't.

It doesn't ruin the experience but it sure holds it back, specially considering P1 & P2 had direct controls and then they went for this. You can enjoy the tactic system and thats okay but it's getting the treatment it deserves. Your only argument is that people didn't like it because they never learned how to properly use them, but the thing they just don't enjoy having their actions locked to a single tactic that can only be changed during the MCs turn.

huh? Persona 2 didn't had direct control
if anything, it was a worse version of P3's tactics
you could only tell them do an action and they will keep doing that same action over and over until you press a button and tell them to stop
and even then, they still carry out the loop until everyone in that turn did they assigned action
it's more accurate to say that P2 only had tactics (excluding negotiations)

[AngryChair]

引用自 Kate Hanami：

引用自 AngryChair：

I did and it's actually one of my favorite FFs, even gambits have it's flaws but it's still an a fun and unique type of gameplay, but tactics aren't.

It doesn't ruin the experience but it sure holds it back, specially considering P1 & P2 had direct controls and then they went for this. You can enjoy the tactic system and thats okay but it's getting the treatment it deserves. Your only argument is that people didn't like it because they never learned how to properly use them, but the thing they just don't enjoy having their actions locked to a single tactic that can only be changed during the MCs turn.

huh? Persona 2 didn't had direct control
if anything, it was a worse version of P3's tactics
you could only tell them do an action and they will keep doing that same action over and over until you press a button and tell them to stop
and even then, they still carry out the loop until everyone in that turn did they assigned action
it's more accurate to say that P2 only had tactics (excluding negotiations)

Dude, you actually described direct control, the only difference is that you choose what everyone'll do at the beginning of the turn. This is not tactics, it's literally telling them what to do. Let's just stop here, im gonna hit the sack and there's really no point in arguing any longer.

[Kate Hanami]

引用自 AngryChair：

引用自 Kate Hanami：

huh? Persona 2 didn't had direct control
if anything, it was a worse version of P3's tactics
you could only tell them do an action and they will keep doing that same action over and over until you press a button and tell them to stop
and even then, they still carry out the loop until everyone in that turn did they assigned action
it's more accurate to say that P2 only had tactics (excluding negotiations)

Dude, you actually described direct control, the only difference is that you choose what everyone'll do at the beginning of the turn. This is not tactics, it's literally telling them what to do. Let's just stop here, im gonna hit the sack and there's really no point in arguing any longer.

they both the same flaw where if you don't have a turn to adjust the tactics, you'll lose the chance to change it

[ness]

Yeah the tactics system is cool and not as bad as everyone says, but at that point why not just have direct commands? If I want Yukari to heal, just let me choose specifically which skill and on who I want, not to mention the ai can't understand "unreasonable" things like topping off health. There would be a cool argument for tactics if a party member would stop listening for narrative reasons but that never happens and could also work with direct commands. YOU are the battle/tactics leader, everyone should listen to exactly what you say.

[Kate Hanami]

引用自 ness：

Yeah the tactics system is cool and not as bad as everyone says, but at that point why not just have direct commands? If I want Yukari to heal, just let me choose specifically which skill and on who I want, not to mention the ai can't understand "unreasonable" things like topping off health. There would be a cool argument for tactics if a party member would stop listening for narrative reasons but that never happens and could also work with direct commands. YOU are the battle/tactics leader, everyone should listen to exactly what you say.

there could be a few moments between certain story event, such as Ken / Akihiko dealing with Shinjoro or Mitsuro / Yukari finding out what their father(s) did

[ness]

引用自 Kate Hanami：

引用自 ness：

Yeah the tactics system is cool and not as bad as everyone says, but at that point why not just have direct commands? If I want Yukari to heal, just let me choose specifically which skill and on who I want, not to mention the ai can't understand "unreasonable" things like topping off health. There would be a cool argument for tactics if a party member would stop listening for narrative reasons but that never happens and could also work with direct commands. YOU are the battle/tactics leader, everyone should listen to exactly what you say.

there could be a few moments between certain story event, such as Ken / Akihiko dealing with Shinjoro or Mitsuro / Yukari finding out what their father(s) did

Totally agree. There could be some really cool plot-related gameplay changes that aren't exclusive to each style. Would also force the player to consider their party more too which is always a good thing in rpgs.

[Kate Hanami]

引用自 ness：

引用自 Kate Hanami：

there could be a few moments between certain story event, such as Ken / Akihiko dealing with Shinjoro or Mitsuro / Yukari finding out what their father(s) did

Totally agree. There could be some really cool plot-related gameplay changes that aren't exclusive to tactic/direct commands. Would also force the player to consider their party more too which is always a good thing in rpgs.

"ludo-narrative resonance" is when a game's story and gameplay resonate with each other, not just complement, a good example would be God of War and it's sequel, where some allies will act on their own when they are mad or sad with kratos or another character for story reason

[fender178]

引用自 Kate Hanami：

see the above? those people are the prime example of using it wrong and saying it sucks
I'm not saying you're wrong for not enjoying something you don't know how to use, but it works greatly when you use it right
and who thing about using an overpowered skilled when not needed is the biggest culprit

I would highly suggest talking to yukari and akiho in the dorms every night before Fuuka joins the party as they explain why the tactics system works the way it does

one I learn how to use is properly, I never turned back to manual control
again, I'm not debating that direct control or tactics is better or worse than the other way
I'm here saying that the system works great when you know how to use the way it was programmed to work instead of using the way you think it should

the same way a computer can run multiple games at the same time at a fraction of the FPS, it is capable of doing that, but it's not doing any favours either way

And See what I mean you are very very very clueless. Tactics SUCK I played another RPG that used tactics and that was Dragon Warrior IV on the NES and it sucked because certain party members would cast spells that you DO NOT need at the wrong time. I used the tactics correctly and it still has it flaws MAJOR FLAWS.

引用自 Kate Hanami：

引用自 AngryChair：

I did and it's actually one of my favorite FFs, even gambits have it's flaws but it's still an a fun and unique type of gameplay, but tactics aren't.

It doesn't ruin the experience but it sure holds it back, specially considering P1 & P2 had direct controls and then they went for this. You can enjoy the tactic system and thats okay but it's getting the treatment it deserves. Your only argument is that people didn't like it because they never learned how to properly use them, but the thing they just don't enjoy having their actions locked to a single tactic that can only be changed during the MCs turn.

huh? Persona 2 didn't had direct control
if anything, it was a worse version of P3's tactics
you could only tell them do an action and they will keep doing that same action over and over until you press a button and tell them to stop
and even then, they still carry out the loop until everyone in that turn did they assigned action
it's more accurate to say that P2 only had tactics (excluding negotiations)

This proves you have no idea what you are talking about. P2 has direct control of party members because you can select what actions you want them to do. That's what direct control is. Sounds like you never played P2.

[Ignosius]

Look, I actually like the AI-controlled party members in P3, but saying it works better than direct commands is just false.

How is having a pretty good idea of what your party members will do better than controlling exactly what they will do every single turn?

I'll happily defend that it's not as bad as people make it out to be, but direct commands are a pure upgrade in terms of playability.