hot take: the tactics systems works way better than direct commands

[Kate Hanami]

so many people hates the tactics without realising they were using it wrong
and the games after took the ubisoft route and over-corrected the "issue" by overly simplifying it or outright remove it

however, not many people know during the first few weeks, your party members explains exactly what each tactic does and how to best use them
the trailers shows the tactics submenu still present in the battle menu for the D-pad down button, but only showcased the party member being controlled and not how the tactics works

(for the love of love, talk to Yukari every night and she will give you instructions for the battle system far better than any tutorial)

if you know how use the tactics properly, you'll never be catch with your pants down, the issue was people just left them to act freely or heal/support for the whole game and never bother to learn how to use it and just left to complain when the system didn't worked

the only thing I can say is the issue with the original tactics was a disconnect between what the CPU was programmed to do and what the players thought it should do instead

[Wodecki]

cool, but you didn't preorder this game so I dont care about your opinion

[Arifufu]

i never play FES, but P4G and P5R tactics actually can entertain me, from what i've seen, Heal/Support actually let party to heal even with Salvation, but for buff it's only work on single buff skill, but surprisingly my Yusuke able to use marakunda with heal/support AI, heal/support also allow Yosuke to use his Youthful Wind, AI tactics also allow to baton pass, and also Full Assault on P4G let Kanji use Primal Force against non-knock down enemy and Vile Assault will be used against knocked down enemy (i know in FES there's knock down Tactics).

But i won't let my expectation too high, i know best tactics only available in FES or P3 OG, so ... Reload will only have standard tactics: act freely, full assault, conserve SP, Heal/support, or just direct command

[Kate Hanami]

Originally posted by Wodecki:

cool, but you didn't preorder this game so I dont care about your opinion

would you believe if I told you..
...you can play games in places other than steam?

[Kate Hanami]

Originally posted by Arifufu:

i never play FES, but P4G and P5R tactics actually can entertain me, from what i've seen, Heal/Support actually let party to heal even with Salvation, but for buff it's only work on single buff skill, but surprisingly my Yusuke able to use marakunda with heal/support AI, heal/support also allow Yosuke to use his Youthful Wind, AI tactics also allow to baton pass, and also Full Assault on P4G let Kanji use Primal Force against non-knock down enemy and Vile Assault will be used against knocked down enemy (i know in FES there's knock down Tactics).

But i won't let my expectation too high, i know best tactics only available in FES or P3 OG, so ... Reload will only have standard tactics: act freely, full assault, conserve SP, Heal/support, or just direct command

that's a pity about how the other games really watered down the tactics mechanics in favour of direct control
the tactics would work great if you known how to use it;
if you try to use it in a way it was not intended to, it was a death sentence, if you did learn how to use the right way, you could breeze through some of the strongest enemies quite a bit under-levelled

[fender178]

Originally posted by Kate Hanami:

so many people hates the tactics without realising they were using it wrong
and the games after took the ubisoft route and over-corrected the "issue" by overly simplifying it or outright remove it

however, not many people know during the first few weeks, your party members explains exactly what each tactic does and how to best use them
the trailers shows the tactics submenu still present in the battle menu for the D-pad down button, but only showcased the party member being controlled and not how the tactics works

(for the love of love, talk to Yukari every night and she will give you instructions for the battle system far better than any tutorial)

if you know how use the tactics properly, you'll never be catch with your pants down, the issue was people just left them to act freely or heal/support for the whole game and never bother to learn how to use it and just left to complain when the system didn't worked

the only thing I can say is the issue with the original tactics was a disconnect between what the CPU was programmed to do and what the players thought it should do instead

I disagree because you have some of the characters do stupid crap like Mitsuru casting Marin Karin every so often. The only who actually did what I told them is Yukari when I set her to to heal. And I was NOT using it wrong. Even if you knew how to use it properly it still sucks sometimes because the AI/CPU controlled characters still have flaws and cast the wrong skill at the wrong time. Id rather have complete control of my party for numerous reasons like for example if you don't have a Persona with the proper elemental skill that you need your you can manually control your party members to use the skill that you don't have.

[KuraiRex]

I would say the ai control feature in P3 was okay for its time. It completely sucked in FES and yes I did know how to use that feature. But as the series progress it became clear to Atlus that its easier for the consumer to control the party members then the ai doing it. Sure, its still there in one way or another. Unfortunately, everyone I know loves to take control themselves then rely on the ai to make the correct choice.

[fender178]

Originally posted by KuraiRex:

I would say the ai control feature in P3 was okay for its time. It completely sucked in FES and yes I did know how to use that feature. But as the series progress it became clear to Atlus that its easier for the consumer to control the party members then the ai doing it. Sure, its still there in one way or another. Unfortunately, everyone I know loves to take control themselves then rely on the ai to make the correct choice.

Yeah Persona 4 fixed a lot that was wrong with Persona 3 and FES.

[KuraiRex]

Originally posted by fender178:

Originally posted by KuraiRex:

I would say the ai control feature in P3 was okay for its time. It completely sucked in FES and yes I did know how to use that feature. But as the series progress it became clear to Atlus that its easier for the consumer to control the party members then the ai doing it. Sure, its still there in one way or another. Unfortunately, everyone I know loves to take control themselves then rely on the ai to make the correct choice.

Yeah Persona 4 fixed a lot that was wrong with Persona 3 and FES.

Thats good to hear. :) I'm sure Atlus will keep improving on it one way or another. Just as long as we never get to FES level ever again. X_X I beat it by using pure anger then loving the game.

Off topic thing, but maybe one day we can just put a headset on us and play the game in VR by summoning demons. XD

[fender178]

Originally posted by KuraiRex:

Originally posted by fender178:

Yeah Persona 4 fixed a lot that was wrong with Persona 3 and FES.

Thats good to hear. :) I'm sure Atlus will keep improving on it one way or another. Just as long as we never get to FES level ever again. X_X I beat it by using pure anger then loving the game.

Off topic thing, but maybe one day we can just put a headset on us and play the game in VR by summoning demons. XD

Yeah I don't think they will ever revert back to just having AI controlled party members. I don't know what inclined them to this route when Persona 1 and 2 had controllable party members (The PS1 originals and not the PSP ones). Hmm a Persona VR or SMT VR game now that isn't a bad idea.

[AngryChair]

Originally posted by Kate Hanami:

so many people hates the tactics without realising they were using it wrong
and the games after took the ubisoft route and over-corrected the "issue" by overly simplifying it or outright remove it

however, not many people know during the first few weeks, your party members explains exactly what each tactic does and how to best use them
the trailers shows the tactics submenu still present in the battle menu for the D-pad down button, but only showcased the party member being controlled and not how the tactics works

(for the love of love, talk to Yukari every night and she will give you instructions for the battle system far better than any tutorial)

if you know how use the tactics properly, you'll never be catch with your pants down, the issue was people just left them to act freely or heal/support for the whole game and never bother to learn how to use it and just left to complain when the system didn't worked

the only thing I can say is the issue with the original tactics was a disconnect between what the CPU was programmed to do and what the players thought it should do instead

Tactics suck ass, even if you know how to use them the AI is just awful.

For example, if i have someone on Heal/Support i expect them to attack when i don't need healing, or buff the team, but they'd rather mediarama because a single character was missing 10hp, or maybe you want someone to debuff the enemy but instead they use Diarahan. Sometimes you get "Fear" and nobody would do ♥♥♥♥, in the meantime you get stuck with the same tactics preparing your ass for the inevitable ghastly wail.

I don't really see the point in defending a system so flawed, who in their right mind wants to play a turn based RPG when actions are RNG? But if you really want to play that way at least you still have the option, since in P4 and P5 you can still use Tactics i don't think they'll remove it for P3R.

[Kate Hanami]

see the above? those people are the prime example of using it wrong and saying it sucks
I'm not saying you're wrong for not enjoying something you don't know how to use, but it works greatly when you use it right
and who thing about using an overpowered skilled when not needed is the biggest culprit

I would highly suggest talking to yukari and akiho in the dorms every night before Fuuka joins the party as they explain why the tactics system works the way it does

one I learn how to use is properly, I never turned back to manual control
again, I'm not debating that direct control or tactics is better or worse than the other way
I'm here saying that the system works great when you know how to use the way it was programmed to work instead of using the way you think it should

the same way a computer can run multiple games at the same time at a fraction of the FPS, it is capable of doing that, but it's not doing any favours either way

[AngryChair]

Originally posted by Kate Hanami:

see the above? those people are the prime example of using it wrong and saying it sucks
I'm not saying you're wrong for not enjoying something you don't know how to use, but it works greatly when you use it right
and who thing about using an overpowered skilled when not needed is the biggest culprit

I would highly suggest talking to yukari and akiho in the dorms every night before Fuuka joins the party as they explain why the tactics system works the way it does

one I learn how to use is properly, I never turned back to manual control
again, I'm not debating that direct control or tactics is better or worse than the other way
I'm here saying that the system works great when you know how to use the way it was programmed to work instead of using the way you think it should

the same way a computer can run multiple games at the same time at a fraction of the FPS, it is capable of doing that, but it's not doing any favours either way

If you are going to say someone is wrong about something the least you can do is tell them why, but sure, you are right and everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.

The system does not work great at all, for reasons like the ones i said, even if you set a character to do the things you want them to do there is still a chance they don't do it correctly. Healing/support can go from healing character to multiple characters, to healing statuses, to buffing, to debuffing, same with attacking, what if i want Yukari to knock down 2 enemies weak to wind and then heal, or just guard afterwards?

Tactics can't possibly cover every strategy for a fight and that's why they end up a lot of times doing ♥♥♥♥ we didn't want them to. And again, there's a lot of ways you can lose control of your character, be it with statuses like fear or enrage, or by getting down on your ass from a critical/weak hit, losing a turn or even more (dizzy), unable to change them. But yeah, the system works great, you just have to understand it huh.

[Kate Hanami]

Originally posted by AngryChair:

Originally posted by Kate Hanami:

see the above? those people are the prime example of using it wrong and saying it sucks
I'm not saying you're wrong for not enjoying something you don't know how to use, but it works greatly when you use it right
and who thing about using an overpowered skilled when not needed is the biggest culprit

I would highly suggest talking to yukari and akiho in the dorms every night before Fuuka joins the party as they explain why the tactics system works the way it does

one I learn how to use is properly, I never turned back to manual control
again, I'm not debating that direct control or tactics is better or worse than the other way
I'm here saying that the system works great when you know how to use the way it was programmed to work instead of using the way you think it should

the same way a computer can run multiple games at the same time at a fraction of the FPS, it is capable of doing that, but it's not doing any favours either way

If you are going to say someone is wrong about something the least you can do is tell them why, but sure, you are right and everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.

The system does not work great at all, for reasons like the ones i said, even if you set a character to do the things you want them to do there is still a chance they don't do it correctly. Healing/support can go from healing character to multiple characters, to healing statuses, to buffing, to debuffing, same with attacking, what if i want Yukari to knock down 2 enemies weak to wind and then heal, or just guard afterwards?

Tactics can't possibly cover every strategy for a fight and that's why they end up a lot of times doing ♥♥♥♥ we didn't want them to. And again, there's a lot of ways you can lose control of your character, be it with statuses like fear or enrage, or by getting down on your ass from a critical/being dizzy or a weak hit, losing and entire turn or more. But yeah, the system works great, you just have to understand it huh.

I really wish people just play the game and understand why
and again, I'm not saying you're wrong for liking one system better than the other, I'm saying you don't know how to properly use the system
is't not a bad system by any means, but people are quick to point out the things it did wrong but never think as to why
for example, the Heal / Support tactics always prioritise keeping a character alive / not KO's instead of buffing or curing status effects
and all action, being attacking or healing will prioritise a target with the lower HP
you can set the preferred tactics at the start of a battle and know how to strategize around it
the system is not perfect by any means, but you need to learn to use the tactics the way the game wants you to, not the other way around

if you want full control, more power to you, but the problem is not "the character doesn't do what I need them to do" is the other way around, they character will do what they are programmed to do, not what you want them to do, if you learn to use that for your advantage, that's when the tactics system really shines

[AngryChair]

Originally posted by Kate Hanami:

Originally posted by AngryChair:

If you are going to say someone is wrong about something the least you can do is tell them why, but sure, you are right and everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.

The system does not work great at all, for reasons like the ones i said, even if you set a character to do the things you want them to do there is still a chance they don't do it correctly. Healing/support can go from healing character to multiple characters, to healing statuses, to buffing, to debuffing, same with attacking, what if i want Yukari to knock down 2 enemies weak to wind and then heal, or just guard afterwards?

Tactics can't possibly cover every strategy for a fight and that's why they end up a lot of times doing ♥♥♥♥ we didn't want them to. And again, there's a lot of ways you can lose control of your character, be it with statuses like fear or enrage, or by getting down on your ass from a critical/being dizzy or a weak hit, losing and entire turn or more. But yeah, the system works great, you just have to understand it huh.

I really wish people just play the game and understand why
and again, I'm not saying you're wrong for liking one system better than the other, I'm saying you don't know how to properly use the system
is't not a bad system by any means, but people are quick to point out the things it did wrong but never think as to why
for example, the Heal / Support tactics always prioritise keeping a character alive / not KO's instead of buffing or curing status effects
and all action, being attacking or healing will prioritise a target with the lower HP
you can set the preferred tactics at the start of a battle and know how to strategize around it
the system is not perfect by any means, but you need to learn to use the tactics the way the game wants you to, not the other way around

if you want full control, more power to you, but the problem is not "the character doesn't do what I need them to do" is the other way around, they character will do what they are programmed to do, not what you want them to do, if you learn to use that for your advantage, that's when the tactics system really shines

That's exactly what im saying, there's no "using that" to my advantage, i'm saying there're a lot of actions i can take in a fight, or a mix of them that can't be contained within a single tactic. There is no "knock down and heal/cure ailment/guard/use a soul food to recover MP" or "debuff and attack (prioritize debuffing)" or "attack and buff every 3 turns". I can lose control of myself and my healer and the rest won't help me because they are stuck with full assault, knock down, or act freely that makes mitsuru cast marin karin 90% of the time.

You can't just call a system like that great. It's playable sure, but in many cases leads to frustration, EVEN IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM there are a lot of things out of your control. And better or worse isn't even debatable, there is not a single thing in favor of tactics over complete control over your party my dude, but you are entitled to your opinion and let's just leave it at that. Happy holidays

[Kate Hanami]

Originally posted by AngryChair:

Originally posted by Kate Hanami:

I really wish people just play the game and understand why
and again, I'm not saying you're wrong for liking one system better than the other, I'm saying you don't know how to properly use the system
is't not a bad system by any means, but people are quick to point out the things it did wrong but never think as to why
for example, the Heal / Support tactics always prioritise keeping a character alive / not KO's instead of buffing or curing status effects
and all action, being attacking or healing will prioritise a target with the lower HP
you can set the preferred tactics at the start of a battle and know how to strategize around it
the system is not perfect by any means, but you need to learn to use the tactics the way the game wants you to, not the other way around

if you want full control, more power to you, but the problem is not "the character doesn't do what I need them to do" is the other way around, they character will do what they are programmed to do, not what you want them to do, if you learn to use that for your advantage, that's when the tactics system really shines

That's exactly what im saying, there's no "using that" to my advantage, i'm saying there're a lot of actions i can make in a fight, or a mix of them that can't be contained in a single tactic. There is no "knock down and heal/cure ailment/guard/use a soul food to recover MP" or "prioritize debuffing over healing" or "attack and buff every 3 turns". I can lose control of myself and my healer and the rest won't help me because they are stuck with full assault, knock down, or act freely that makes mitsuru cast marin karin 90% of the time.

You can't just call a system like that great. It's playable sure, but in many cases leads to frustration, EVEN IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM there are a lot of things out of your control. And better or worse isn't even debatable, there is not a single thing in favor of tactics over complete control over your party my dude, but you are entitled to your opinion and let's just leave it at that. Happy holidays

you should give Final Fantasy XII a a whirl
the gambit system is exactly what you just said
alas there's not gambit system in persona;
my only suggestion is try to learn how to use it, it have it's flaws but this system is far greater than most people give it credit for
play will direct control or play with tactics, is not going to ruin the game if you try the first few floors or the toothpastetower with the knowledge of how the tactics work instead of going with "it will do the thing I don't need at the worst possible time, mindset

(a VR game where you can control your character and their persona would be great too, but it would need to have a great tactics system or no party members)