Ja2 1.13 vs Wildfire

[Space Cowboy]

I have the original on GOG (which I could patch to 1.13) and just bought Wildfire for a buck. Which one would you say is more worth getting into and what are the differences between the 2 versions. Thanks in advance. Cheers!

[zumrus]

First is a platform for applying mods in which you can vary a lot of the game parameters.
Second is a fixed mod. Its main features are totally renewed map and sectors. But you could find a mode for 1.13 that adds maps from Wildfire.

[Space Cowboy]

Originally posted by zumrus:

First is a platform for applying mods in which you can vary a lot of the game parameters.
Second is a fixed mod. Its main features are totally renewed map and sectors. But you could find a mode for 1.13 that adds maps from Wildfire.

I'll certainly stick to 1.13 then. Especially because I managed to make it run in widescreen and with working alt-tabbing. Also, the latest version is actually just 2 years old and I presume that it has an edge in terms of balancing.

[Ichthyic]

" and with working alt-tabbing."

is that a feature of 1.13, or did you do something specific to accomplish this? I have real issues getting things that try to scale resolution in dosbox to alt-tab properly in win10.

also, wildfire has some really inane difficulty scale-ups for the enemies. it often feels like playing on expert... expert mode.

or end game expert mode in the base game, but from the start.

[zumrus]

Wildfire is hard. I've walked it through on the expert level and my first fight (in Omerta) was similar to the mid-game fight in Classic.
But its not impossible. It becomes a bit easier in the last part of the game because stats of your mercs grows faster that that in Classic and because you get long range guns.

[Space Cowboy]

Originally posted by Ichthyic:

" and with working alt-tabbing."

is that a feature of 1.13, or did you do something specific to accomplish this? I have real issues getting things that try to scale resolution in dosbox to alt-tab properly in win10.

also, wildfire has some really inane difficulty scale-ups for the enemies. it often feels like playing on expert... expert mode.

or end game expert mode in the base game, but from the start.

That was quite a bit of work. You'll have to start the game via "INI Editor.exe" and put in a custom resolution of 1296x720 and switch "Windowed Mode" to TRUE. Then you use a tool named "Borderless Gaming" and voila. Without the weird custom resolution you'll have a border on the right side for some reason and can't use edge scroll.

[Ichthyic]

ah, no problem then, I've used the borderless app before.

[jarrad5jarrad10]

GOG I would say would be for classic JA lovers, while Wildfire must be for ones that enjoy tactics more. I totally agree that early on especially Wildfire will be more difficult because you have more enemies early on and more sectors - and that combination will already make it more difficult hands down. Not to mention, you also cannot be guaranteed a steady flow of income from Drassen early on in Wildfire if you free that town first. So not until you have 2 towns will your first town initiate mining ore or gold or whatever for you - I can almost assume this.

I vehemently oppose playing expert and/or Ironman on any of the JA series or any game like JA. To me, being shot is such a pain in the **** that reloading just makes me even more aggravated than being shot - the whole having to do it over again - I hate that. But, this is why I like JA Online version so much is that you don't need to heal your guys and repair at all - just straight up combat - but much less tactical in many regards (for instance interrupt works the same but you cannot lay down in online version).

I would go for Wildfire, especially on realistic, because you shoot an enemy once in the head and I would say virtually 90% of them die instantly or have very serious damage done to them. I don't agree that Wildfire is a little easier when you have upgraded mercs and weapons - it is a lot easier - trust me I know the difference.

On my last Wildfire campaign, unless I had good aim on a merc and good agility, my focus typically had been targeting the torso and not the head - and this worked really well and resulted in me not being hit as often or critically for that matter - far, far less in fact. I rarely think striking the legs would be useful unless you want to occupy a space and make it more difficult to get interrupted... Once again though, I wouldn't go for Expert nor Ironman on either version because those to me are just complete garbage. What would you prove by beating one or both? That you spent countless hours beating a very determined and difficult enemy?

I despise the fact that you have people here defending the game developers in making a game really annoying - like Ironman and/or Expert to me is like fighting the rulers in X-COM 2 - there is simply nothing more annoying I have experienced in my life that beating those suckers.

In much the same way, I'm sure I would be way too annoyed trying to beat Ironman and/or Expert - so I won't go into several ways on why that would be - but for sure you will be shot a lot easier than on normal difficulty which already means annoyance will be for certain.

[Space Cowboy]

Originally posted by jarrad5jarrad10:

GOG I would say would be for classic JA lovers, while Wildfire must be for ones that enjoy tactics more. I totally agree that early on especially Wildfire will be more difficult because you have more enemies early on and more sectors - and that combination will already make it more difficult hands down. Not to mention, you also cannot be guaranteed a steady flow of income from Drassen early on in Wildfire if you free that town first. So not until you have 2 towns will your first town initiate mining ore or gold or whatever for you - I can almost assume this.

I vehemently oppose playing expert and/or Ironman on any of the JA series or any game like JA. To me, being shot is such a pain in the **** that reloading just makes me even more aggravated than being shot - the whole having to do it over again - I hate that. But, this is why I like JA Online version so much is that you don't need to heal your guys and repair at all - just straight up combat - but much less tactical in many regards (for instance interrupt works the same but you cannot lay down in online version).

I would go for Wildfire, especially on realistic, because you shoot an enemy once in the head and I would say virtually 90% of them die instantly or have very serious damage done to them. I don't agree that Wildfire is a little easier when you have upgraded mercs and weapons - it is a lot easier - trust me I know the difference.

On my last Wildfire campaign, unless I had good aim on a merc and good agility, my focus typically had been targeting the torso and not the head - and this worked really well and resulted in me not being hit as often or critically for that matter - far, far less in fact. I rarely think striking the legs would be useful unless you want to occupy a space and make it more difficult to get interrupted... Once again though, I wouldn't go for Expert nor Ironman on either version because those to me are just complete garbage. What would you prove by beating one or both? That you spent countless hours beating a very determined and difficult enemy?

I despise the fact that you have people here defending the game developers in making a game really annoying - like Ironman and/or Expert to me is like fighting the rulers in X-COM 2 - there is simply nothing more annoying I have experienced in my life that beating those suckers.

In much the same way, I'm sure I would be way too annoyed trying to beat Ironman and/or Expert - so I won't go into several ways on why that would be - but for sure you will be shot a lot easier than on normal difficulty which already means annoyance will be for certain.

I'm absolutely not interested in the increase of difficulty. Tbh, I tried the latest version and even older versions of 1.13 and those were not suitable at all to get into this game.
I ended up using 1.13 SDO (Stock Data Overhaul) on novice and created 4 (pretty overpowerd) mercs via IMP and one high-end one from AIM and with that I was actually able to get somewhere in the game and learn the ropes. Wildfire as well as stock 1.13 mod are seemingly unforgiving at the beginning and require you to have the game mechanics and the timing of your actions (like militia training, weapons orders) 100% down - no leeway allowed. SDO is actually managable although not quite as easy as stock JA2 which I'd prefer - unfortunately Stracciatella makes the game stutter like crazy, so I'm stuck on some variant of the 1.13 mod, unfortunately.

[jarrad5jarrad10]

Sounds good to me Space Cowboy, it appears you have a pretty rational method of achieving what you like in the game. I've never played on novice but I almost want to try that - almost - however I'm believe I will take a break from this game.

I'm just tired of what you described - the getting into the game part - like I see a resounding agreement among most people who actually know what they speak of that you need upgraded weapons and improved mercs to have any effectiveness in countering the enemy incursions/attacks/rushes or whatever you like to call them. I don't like that you start out ill-equipped and basically eating **** for a good part of the game prior to you actually being a killing machine.

It only starts being a great game once you have 2 or 3 mercs - fully equipped - and on top their skills. Good merc stats really do not mean much, especially when the enemy has much better weapons than you.

I'm pleased that someone would not hesitate to try novice as that really to me should be the way the game ought to be on normal, not novice. Novice mode ought to be the one where you learn all about the game, not to be good at it, while normal should be where you hone your skills in the game and master some of the mechanics.

You have a similar remark in saying you need to be flawless or you pay for it - well that's not a definition of normal. That's expert by definition which means the whole entire game difficulty has been defined wrong.

[jarrad5jarrad10]

Oh, one more thing a little unrelated. I played Age of Empires 3 - that is a very fair game in comparison - yes not turn-based like JA but it just illustrates how a game should be on Normal difficulty. To me I have a much more fair shot of winning in AofE3 with a minimum of if no saves in that - and convincingly.

On my last skirmish match, I killed 400+ enemies while only losing 100+, like a quarter of the killed ones. That is where a game ought to be at once you master some of the mechanics. I doubt I can improve that ratio by much but to be frank it's much more satisfying on a Normal setting to play what you expect. I hate the fact that difficulty cannot be defined systematically or even by pure definition: is it normal that you have to be flawless to be effective? No, that's the very definition of Expert, not Normal!

[Space Cowboy]

Originally posted by jarrad5jarrad10:

Oh, one more thing a little unrelated. I played Age of Empires 3 - that is a very fair game in comparison - yes not turn-based like JA but it just illustrates how a game should be on Normal difficulty. To me I have a much more fair shot of winning in AofE3 with a minimum of if no saves in that - and convincingly.

On my last skirmish match, I killed 400+ enemies while only losing 100+, like a quarter of the killed ones. That is where a game ought to be at once you master some of the mechanics. I doubt I can improve that ratio by much but to be frank it's much more satisfying on a Normal setting to play what you expect. I hate the fact that difficulty cannot be defined systematically or even by pure definition: is it normal that you have to be flawless to be effective? No, that's the very definition of Expert, not Normal!

Yeah, I absolutely agree. Right now, no matter if you use Wildfire or 1.13 (without SDO), the names of the difficulty settings are completely arbitrary. "Novice" is already at a level which would be flatout "hard" for a game like X-Com, for example. And even the unpatched (easier) original stock version is a game you really have to learn to be successful in any way. I mean the interface alone is a labyrinth in itself and you will need some learning-by-doing-quality-time to figure it out. And that's what "Novice" should be. And SDO actually does a decent enough job to at least give you a decent chance on "Novice" early on, so I'd highly recommend that version. Also the new aiming system which comes with 1.13 is actually tweaked so that you occasionally will hit stuff and SDO has a lot of options to tweak the difficulty to your liking - far more than Wildfire or normal 1.13. Here's a link for the download site if you're interested - it's actually not that easy to find:
http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=20708&prevloaded=1&&start=

[Red Knight]

Some very good points have been made here and I won't disagree since everyone has their own opinion. I haven't finished Wildfire since I have a few things going on, but I'm largely not liking what I'm seeing. It is more difficult with less reward then 1.13. I think taking Drassen first is a mistake, but I did it and now I have to continue across the country before I go broke. If it was Wildfire 1.13 I would at least have the weapons I need. I never liked the fact that the enemy dropped so few items. In vanilla you'd be using pistols to face shotguns. Fine you'd overcome them, but have few rewards. I like when they dropped everything it made sense. Prior to that you ended up with a collection of odd items hoping you'd find what you needed. 1.13 isn't perfect and I've played very few other mods.

I think we need a revamped game with all the features players enjoy remaining intact. Even the new X-Com had it's issues. Small magazines, so few troopers to fight with, and the same maps no matter where you were in the world. Still had a fun time but wished things had been a little different.

Wish they would provide a mod workshop here on Steam.

[Murtaugh]

I've really enjoyed reading through this thread. I've come back to this game over and over again through the years. I've even kept the original disc copy & manual outta sentiment. It's rad to see so many people still enjoy this game.

[jarrad5jarrad10]

I agree Murtaugh, and I said I'd not return to the game but it happens to be incredibly addictive. I don't believe I should use the word replayability because a better description is addictive. Some believe turn-based games are a dying breed but not so. The really good gamers - not the ones that spend endless hours for no benefit - but the ones that try to improve themselves and actually learn real-life skills while having a bit of fun is really satisfying. Yes, believe it or not JA2 really teaches you about a) the mercenary world, 2) leadership, 3) skill sets that go beyond the mercenary world, and d) how to hone those skills sets - including but not limited to medical, mechanical, and explosive.

I decided not to have a break from JA2 classic as I mentioned above (classic is where real skills can be developed while Wildfire is more annoying for the most part but deaths are much easier as far as the enemies go) and in this campaign, I chose a completely different approach. I thought I would not go this route, but I did, and I see it paying off. I chose my main merc to be Thor, because someone once pointed out that he is proficient in all the right areas. Yes, totally right! Blood, Maddog, and my avatar JK are the basic assault team aided by several others. I reached the outskirts of Grumm and now it would be the beginning of the end for the enemy but many more sectors to go.

What I am aiming to do is have an 80 point or % average on all attributes with the exception of LVL (including wisdom but really that one is very difficult to improve). With Scully on my last campaign, I had an average of 82 with a few below attributes falling below 80. With Thor now, I am hoping to possibly bring that average up and really bring up the explosive skill. The leadership, mechanical, and medical skills can be brought up to 80+ but the explosive will be the greatest challenge and I may not improve it to 80+.

Even so, seeing a merc with all kinds of improved skills and attributes it much more satisfying than having a merc at a 9 or 10 LVL.

[Hanalyd]

No idea how you ran this game with an ini editor.
Must have used magic.

Cant get this damn game to alt tab