Ranked suffers the same problem strive does

[SKiV_]

Strive tower has an issue where once you hit floor 10 you're either going against people of your same skill level or people who are 7,000 hours deep and its a gamble on whether you're gonna have a fair fight or an even match. Except in this game when you hit A rank you cant see the level of the opponent and decide that its not a fight you wanna take. I've learned a small handful of characters and with everyone once i hit A rank i run into the same problem of just getting thrashed suddenly after having some fun fairly even matches in the lower ranks.

[Tyrone Biggums]

this is only true in master rank honestly you can be fighting someone on your level or someone who has thousands of orbs

and lets be real if someone is lets just say level 300-500 in A rank they either stick to casual mostly or thats just the rank they belong in characters levels dont determine skill at all

[Unrighteous]

Originally posted by Chris Evan:

this is only true in master rank honestly you can be fighting someone on your level or someone who has thousands of orbs

and lets be real if someone is lets just say level 300-500 in A rank they either stick to casual mostly or thats just the rank they belong in characters levels dont determine skill at all

The issue with ranked here is that you start fighting people a full tier above you as soon as you enter a new letter rank. A5's will be matched against booted S5 players; there's a massive skill gap there. If you just made it to A5, you literally can't beat anyone anymore and that feels bad. I was hard stuck at A5 when I got there and I needed to practice a lot outside of ranked to be good enough to start winning games; once I did start winning, hitting S5 was easy. You're either good enough for the next letter, or you're stuck at the bottom; there's no in between.

I think master rank is a bit better than celestial because it takes way longer to get there, so the skill distribution among ranks is a lot more even. In strive, I can hit floor 10 without having played in months, but completing the celestial challenge is legitimately impossible.

The true solution is just what SF6 does and that's have MMR for all ranks, and then a unique rating when you hit master. It would make ranked feel so much better.

[Tyrone Biggums]

yeah floor 10 in strive u rank up so quickly its not even a thing really i was celestial week 1 by just mashing on leo's nonsense

for this game tho all this talk about A or S rank really is a skill issue on the player the only time i would barely consider it problematic is your ranks of your secondary chars are always 2 bellow your highest

so master makes all your chars base line S5 but again they are also learning a new character as well at that point this is not a ranked issue this is a player issue

[Infevo]

A rank is the lowest rank of rank mode. It is floor 1. Not floor 10.

While Strive's system is a complete abomination and does not deserve the label "rank mode" at all as almost everyone is in floor 10 at the start of each month and by the end you are either in heaven or you stay in floor 10, Granblue's system at least serves its purpose.

[Tyrone Biggums]

A rank is basically tutorial complete you could say

[Unrighteous]

I think you completely missed the core of my argument, Chris. The problem is not master players being placed in S5 on alt characters, they're just going to rank up quickly and disappear from that league. It's people stuck at S5 being demoted to A1 because they get matched with A5's. The reason the S5 players get demoted is because they're matching with demoted S+5 players.

The whole point of a ranked system is to match with players of equal skill, and an S5 player is not equal to an A5 player; why are they matching constantly? I'd keep going, but I've already explained this.

You call it a skill issue and act like that isn't a problem lol. When people entire leagues apart get matched, that's an issue that could be fixed; call it whatever you want.

[Infevo]

Originally posted by Unrighteous:

I think you completely missed the core of my argument, Chris. The problem is not master players being placed in S5 on alt characters, they're just going to rank up quickly and disappear from that league. It's people stuck at S5 being demoted to A1 because they get matched with A5's. The reason the S5 players get demoted is because they're matching with demoted S+5 players.

The whole point of a ranked system is to match with players of equal skill, and an S5 player is not equal to an A5 player; why are they matching constantly? I'd keep going, but I've already explained this.

You call it a skill issue and act like that isn't a problem lol. When people entire leagues apart get matched, that's an issue that could be fixed; call it whatever you want.

One could certainly argue in favor of a more fluent system where people only get matched against the same division or +/-2 divisions of their own. But then tiers become a gimmick and have no meaning anymore. I actually like the idea of being placed into a higher league and having to earn my place there from the bottom up. Just like you have in professional sports. Teams in the Premier League do not play against teams in the EFL.

[Unrighteous]

Originally posted by Infevo:

One could certainly argue in favor of a more fluent system where people only get matched against the same division or +/-2 divisions of their own. But then tiers become a gimmick and have no meaning anymore. I actually like the idea of being placed into a higher league and having to earn my place there from the bottom up. Just like you have in professional sports. Teams in the Premier League do not play against teams in the EFL.

I don't really understand this. Are leagues a gimmick in SF6? MMR is an objectively better system if your goal is matching players of similar skill and everyone else uses it, I don't see why it wouldn't work better here too.

[Inuakurei]

I like how Unrighteous is 100% right but no one seems to have reading comprehension.

[Infevo]

Originally posted by Unrighteous:

Originally posted by Infevo:

One could certainly argue in favor of a more fluent system where people only get matched against the same division or +/-2 divisions of their own. But then tiers become a gimmick and have no meaning anymore. I actually like the idea of being placed into a higher league and having to earn my place there from the bottom up. Just like you have in professional sports. Teams in the Premier League do not play against teams in the EFL.

I don't really understand this. Are leagues a gimmick in SF6? MMR is an objectively better system if your goal is matching players of similar skill and everyone else uses it, I don't see why it wouldn't work better here too.

If the matchmaking was fluent as proposed then leagues would not exist and therefore tiers on top of divisions were merely an arbitrary "meta-category" to represent skill. It perhaps is more aesthetic in a sense but serves no purpose in matchmaking on top of considering divisions. But then again, with a proper elo/mmr system (as utilized for chess) you would not need divisions either.

[[reaVerNL@Rumble]ᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ]

Leagues are a means to enforce a pyramid scheme by preventing talented players from matching up with experienced players. Matchmaking quality has nothing to do with it.

[Unrighteous]

Originally posted by Infevo:

If the matchmaking was fluent as proposed then leagues would not exist and therefore tiers on top of divisions were merely an arbitrary "meta-category" to represent skill. It perhaps is more aesthetic in a sense but serves no purpose in matchmaking on top of considering divisions. But then again, with a proper elo/mmr system (as utilized for chess) you would not need divisions either.

Why are you talking about chess? I gave Street Fighter 6 as an example. We don't have to theorize about arbitrary meta-categories or whatever the heck you're talking about. A real world example already exists in SF6 and it's better. The divisions exist because it's a video game and people like saying they're in x division, it doesn't need to serve any other purpose. The priority in ranked should always be matching players of similar skill.

Originally posted by reaVerNL@Rumbleᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ:

Leagues are a means to enforce a pyramid scheme by preventing talented players from matching up with experienced players. Matchmaking quality has nothing to do with it.

Can you tell me how you managed to come up with two sentences without saying anything?

[Venirto]

I haven't played Strive and I'm generally new to online fighting games but I've noticed something similar at lower ranks as well.

I'm "bright green" and the moment I get from D1 to C5 rank on a character I get matched rather frequently against "orange" or "pink" C3-1 players (who are likely A rank on their main) that I stand no chances against on technical level. I have no problems fighting other "green" C rank players but I also can't go higher than C4 and I feel like I've become a stepping stone for every "orange" player on their way from C1 to B5.

[Infevo]

Originally posted by Unrighteous:

Originally posted by Infevo:

If the matchmaking was fluent as proposed then leagues would not exist and therefore tiers on top of divisions were merely an arbitrary "meta-category" to represent skill. It perhaps is more aesthetic in a sense but serves no purpose in matchmaking on top of considering divisions. But then again, with a proper elo/mmr system (as utilized for chess) you would not need divisions either.

Why are you talking about chess? I gave Street Fighter 6 as an example. We don't have to theorize about arbitrary meta-categories or whatever the heck you're talking about. A real world example already exists in SF6 and it's better. The divisions exist because it's a video game and people like saying they're in x division, it doesn't need to serve any other purpose. The priority in ranked should always be matching players of similar skill.

I thought my post implciitly answered your question. Yes, even in SF6 putting the label "Diamond" on a player is just an arbitrary construct to make things look more cute. It merely is about associating a player's LP with a league which has no direct impact on matchmaking. But people lack intelligence to understand that matchmaking does in fact exclusively revolve around LP. Hence, the numerous complaints from (e.g.) Plat players being matched against Diamond players. People will cry no matter what and my point is that it only is a matter of philosophy and perspective.
Granblue's system is fine. Yes, the skill brackets are somewhat large within every tier comparing across the span of five divisions. That is certainly annoying. But we do neither have the player pool to reduce the number of divisions within a league (tier) and increase the number of tiers without suffering from even longer queue times.
The consequence of introducing a more fluent matchmaking (e.g. matching vs. -/+1 divs) inevitably shrinks the player pool to match someone against. And I personally enjoy the current implementation because it makes the league you're in actually matter.

[Unrighteous]

I don't think strawmanning SF6 players helps make a point here. I was plat 5 when I played SF6 and I had no issues fighting diamond 1 players because I would fight plat 4 players just a much. I much rather that than ever being matched against plat 1 players.

If you like Granblue's system, that's fine. However, if the goal is creating a ranked system that matches players of similar skill, then it's objectively worse than SF6's ranked system. I've been repeating this over and over.

Your point about Granblue not having the player pool is just wrong. You literally can't match with people outside of your division as far as I have seen, which actually increases queue times. Obviously in SF6's system, the longer the wait, the more the search criteria expands. Player pool doesn't matter.

You're free to like what you want, but your points don't make sense.