Nier's win guide

[MysteryK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_KkMane-Ms

Expect more "fun" matches with her from now on, lol.

[Sigma993]

Publicado originalmente por reaVerNL@Rumbleᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ:

Publicado originalmente por Sigma993:

It's only -17 on block, ofc the move is broken.
Just double the number and we might see people actually do something instead of just taking it!

The -17 is a meme, if the doll actually blocks something then it's -13 at best and when the doll cancels to the next attack you may not be able to press anything at all. If the doll couldn't cancel the damn DP then what was said here would be accurate enough. But right now the attack is difficult to punish, by the time you get something out of it it's already back up again and when it lands, it can cost you the entire round due to the vortexes that come after.

Actually you can most definitely punish it, I tested it in training mode as well!
That follow up cancel, no matter which attack you do is not guaranteed!
DPS, normal lights and low pokes easily interrupt the puppet.
I can see the only thing they might do is decrease the actual range of Niers DP considering it has a decent range so Nier herself can actually avoid getting punished if she places herself not too closely to the opponent!

Also here this video literally proves that her cancels are not confirmed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deVMvyt8Q5g&t=39s

[[reaVerNL@Rumble]ᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ]

Publicado originalmente por Sigma993:

Publicado originalmente por reaVerNL@Rumbleᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ:

The -17 is a meme, if the doll actually blocks something then it's -13 at best and when the doll cancels to the next attack you may not be able to press anything at all. If the doll couldn't cancel the damn DP then what was said here would be accurate enough. But right now the attack is difficult to punish, by the time you get something out of it it's already back up again and when it lands, it can cost you the entire round due to the vortexes that come after.

Actually you can most definitely punish it, I tested it in training mode as well!
That follow up cancel, no matter which attack you do is not guaranteed!
DPS, normal lights and low pokes easily interrupt the puppet.
I can see the only thing they might do is decrease the actual range of Niers DP considering it has a decent range so Nier herself can actually avoid getting punished if she places herself not too closely to the opponent!

They need to make sure she can't cancel it. Like I said, the reversal is not just a "get off me" move, it's game winning. The reason you see Niers play like absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ is because their reversals are guarding the responses to such dumb plays. And not just "oh I got dp'ed" no, it's literally DP into vortex into vortex, repeat. Even if you were to guess correctly you can still lose health. By the time she's done with her spiel you're at 20% hp remaining no matter what you do. By then if she hits blue, you can no longer attack her directly as she can kill you by pressing 3 buttons at the same time.

As for dealing with the DP, you only get a 9 frame window to punish if you hard baited it in the first place; which is a massive invitation to Nier to just attack you and put you back into that vortex I mentioned earlier. So you're playing a 50-50 game where you get marginal wins compared to her. If you want to reduce such options however, you'd have to do some form of attack that you can confirm hit some reversal and then deal with that situation. Now I just tested just now, if your attack hits late you don't even get to press 4G and then even if you get 4G the followup of even a 5L(c) is not consistent. And when such inconsistency is met, you will be put back into the vortex and on your way to losing the round.

So if just the reversal could not be canceled into anything else, all this becomes relatively moot and Niers would actually be forced to play the game. Then we can complain about the doll mixups that are by themselves highly inconsistent as is.

[Juihau]

Publicado originalmente por reaVerNL@Rumbleᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ:

Publicado originalmente por Juihau:

Even if she follows up with 22H or 214H, as long as you block the DP, pretty much anything 9 frames or faster will win. This includes most characters' c.H, meaning you can very much punish her for everything she's worth.

Even some slower attacks like Narmaya's 12 frame kagura f.H can beat her out in this situation, which I am struggling to find the commonality for, but it does work for some of them. Though if you block it that far out, you're better off just using like f.M or something to do it reliably.

Oh yes, now try launching a normal into her reversal. And then a projectile.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, but here's[imgur.com] her getting punished for dping a safejump, with said punish leading into another safejump setup. You can see she cancelled into 22H immediately, but it just didn't come out fast enough.

And here's[imgur.com] her dping a projectile because I guess you wanted to see that for some reason?

EDIT: Also here's[imgur.com] Ferry literally just not caring that Nier tried to dp.

[Manslayer]

Publicado originalmente por Infevo:

Publicado originalmente por Manslayer:

Dude, you literally can't make a character in a game have literally HALF the life of the rest of the cast.

Why the heck do you believe a mere assertion is an argument? Of course, you can. Balanaced against her offensive AND defensive options, 8k life would be absolutely fine. And you cannot give me one reason why it is not. If you get setplay off a block or massive damage from a reversal that deletes multiple amounts of what the average character gets for a high risk move, then 8k life is generous..

Also ever heard of Phoenix from MvC? She has 375k life while Akuma (another glass cannon) has 750k and Ryu has 1000k life. Was Phoenix "deleted from the game"? No, in fact she was one of the most successful tournament picks.

Please, rewatch this section (from 3:35 onwards) and pay attention to the damage she gets from one combo + one mix. Keep in mind she is still +86 on block if her mixup is not successful. She gets this from her relatively strong 66L and only requires 25% meter for the whole sequnce ending in SBA. I ask you again, what lifepool should she have if everything else remains unchanged?

https://youtu.be/d_KkMane-Ms?t=215

Publicado originalmente por Manslayer:

Make it so she has like 1 or 2 more stock but everytime she uses death she uses a stock, or keep it at 13. Make it so she doesn't have a crossup overhead dash attack that works well with her pressure, make it so her damage is lower or death adds more to the combo limit on use.

Your suggestion would LITERALLY delete her gameplay. Her whole setplay revolved around 4-way mixup. You want to nerf her identity. I want to balance her. This is the difference. And while my approach is very straight forward and stable, yours makes everything more complicated and ruins her whole kit.

Publicado originalmente por Manslayer:

There are A LOT of ways to go about it. Making it so the character can die to one combo from full HP from a Gran is NOT the answer to nerf the character.

But noone deals that damage at round start. And again, she gets setplay into gameover from making you block. So while she gets to end a round off making you block you will never kill her without meter at round start by one-touching her. You should be able to kill her later with one combo, yes. Because that's how you balance a character like her. She gets a 1f reversal into huge damage when accessing her SSBA. This could be something to force people play around because her M and H dp are annoying enough to deal with already.

Honestly, you just want her removed. You can easily make it so she uses her stacks on all death usage then make it recharge faster when exhausted or something. Your idea is not to balance her just make her unplayable and the funny part is, it won't even fix the problem if she is oppressive, cause she will just oppress you.
You hate her, I get it she is overpowered, but you don't know how to balance her, same as me, so let the devs do it.

Also Phoenix literally revives and can one combo you through guard during x factor.

[Sigma993]

Publicado originalmente por reaVerNL@Rumbleᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ:

Publicado originalmente por Sigma993:

Actually you can most definitely punish it, I tested it in training mode as well!
That follow up cancel, no matter which attack you do is not guaranteed!
DPS, normal lights and low pokes easily interrupt the puppet.
I can see the only thing they might do is decrease the actual range of Niers DP considering it has a decent range so Nier herself can actually avoid getting punished if she places herself not too closely to the opponent!

They need to make sure she can't cancel it. Like I said, the reversal is not just a "get off me" move, it's game winning. The reason you see Niers play like absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ is because their reversals are guarding the responses to such dumb plays. And not just "oh I got dp'ed" no, it's literally DP into vortex into vortex, repeat. Even if you were to guess correctly you can still lose health. By the time she's done with her spiel you're at 20% hp remaining no matter what you do. By then if she hits blue, you can no longer attack her directly as she can kill you by pressing 3 buttons at the same time.

As for dealing with the DP, you only get a 9 frame window to punish if you hard baited it in the first place; which is a massive invitation to Nier to just attack you and put you back into that vortex I mentioned earlier. So you're playing a 50-50 game where you get marginal wins compared to her. If you want to reduce such options however, you'd have to do some form of attack that you can confirm hit some reversal and then deal with that situation. Now I just tested just now, if your attack hits late you don't even get to press 4G and then even if you get 4G the followup of even a 5L(c) is not consistent. And when such inconsistency is met, you will be put back into the vortex and on your way to losing the round.

So if just the reversal could not be canceled into anything else, all this becomes relatively moot and Niers would actually be forced to play the game. Then we can complain about the doll mixups that are by themselves highly inconsistent as is.

I don't think removing her dp cancels would be a good idea. She relies on the puppet and the cancels way too much. If you take away her dp cancels you might as well just remove the entire move since it's useless otherwise.
They could maybe increase the cooldown on her puppet attacks, this would lead to her dealing a lot less damage without breaking her entirely.
Personally I don't think that Nier is as broken as many people claim but I do agree she needs to be toned down a bit (same goes for Seoux, Zeta and Gran/Djeeta with their 66L shenanigans)!

[[reaVerNL@Rumble]ᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ]

Publicado originalmente por Sigma993:

I don't think removing her dp cancels would be a good idea. She relies on the puppet and the cancels way too much. If you take away her dp cancels you might as well just remove the entire move since it's useless otherwise.
They could maybe increase the cooldown on her puppet attacks, this would lead to her dealing a lot less damage without breaking her entirely.
Personally I don't think that Nier is as broken as many people claim but I do agree she needs to be toned down a bit (same goes for Seoux, Zeta and Gran/Djeeta with their 66L shenanigans)!

By removing her dp cancel all you do is make sure that she doesn't win the round off of hitting one DP. She can still win the round off of one 2M, 2U, 5M, 5H, 66L, etc. In short, it doesn't change all that much, it just stops them from playing a winning game from a downed state.