Defensive options

[SKiV_]

maybe im just not used to the speed of the game yet but this game feels like plus frames galore. With that in mind it feels like my defensive options are incredibly limited. I play zooey so i dont really have a DP and i only get 3 bravery points a round. What are my defensive options so i can get out of the corner or just stop blocking in general?

[Fish]

You do have DP by using the ultimate version. That will give you the frame 1 invincibility.
Using your super can achieve the same thing but it's a bigger commitment.

Other than that, if you don't want to rely on invincible reversal or using your bravery point, then you need match up specific knowledge. You'll need sufficient experience and understanding about the other characters to know where the gaps in their aggression are. Fish for openings and strike back when the time is right. Until then, be patient and keep blocking.
Spot dodge opponent moves that has long recovery will work really well for you, but be mindful not to spam spotdodge or you may get punished on your recovery frames.

So yeah, be patient, watch for openings. When you lose, you can go to the replay section and watch the replay in slow motion to figure out why you lost the interaction, and try to improve from there. If there's a specific character you struggle fighting against, go into training mode and take a look at that character's moves and understand what they can do.

Knowing is half the battle.

[Sewshin]

try seeing where you can press a button in your opponents attacks. usually some stuff is fake pressure and it's really your turn, but you are going to have to do a lot of watching replays and labbing with frame data on. Hope this helps.

[Kaitsu]

This game is a big knowledge check. You also have spot dodge and slide dodge. A lot of characters can be spot dodged to turn the tides.

[[reaVerNL@Rumble]ᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ]

Originally posted by SKiV_:

maybe im just not used to the speed of the game yet but this game feels like plus frames galore. With that in mind it feels like my defensive options are incredibly limited. I play zooey so i dont really have a DP and i only get 3 bravery points a round. What are my defensive options so i can get out of the corner or just stop blocking in general?

Sit and wait. You kinda are forced to wait until your opponent does something that pushes himself out of range or makes himself punishable. It also depends on the character you're fighting against, if you're playing Gran or Belial for example the 2M they got is spammable and sets you up for 5H counter hit trap. At the same time, doing nothing will allow them to run in and throw you. Other characters have similar mechanics and you're kinda stuck waiting them out before you can make a move.

At the same time, you need to check your opponents once in a while with moves to make sure they don't get too cocky on their offense. Of course, this comes with the risk of getting stuffed hard and taking 50% damage in the worst cases.

What you should definitely practice however is the delay tech option select: set the opponent character to do a 5L Throw vs 5L5H and time your throw tech in such a way that you guard the 5H yet tech out of the throw. This is one of the most basic defenses that you will have to be able to perform. Of course there's plenty of ways around players defending like this, but you should cross that bridge when you get to it.

After this it's worthwhile to look for matchup specific responses. Vira for example has a special move that needs to be mashed or she'll be plus and able to trap/throw you. Soriz has a specific mash timing where you will guard all options except for the mashable one. If you have specific matchup issues I can try to explain how I solve it.

[[reaVerNL@Rumble]ᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ]

Originally posted by Kaitsu:

This game is a big knowledge check. You also have spot dodge and slide dodge. A lot of characters can be spot dodged to turn the tides.

While this is true for some characters/moves there's plenty more cases where this is simply not true and the fact you're able to open someone up this way is purely because that someone wasn't expecting the spotdodge/crossover and pushed the wrong button. It's well worth checking in training mode if what you're doing is actually good as there's a lot of moves that are punishable on block but negative (for you) on spotdodge.

[kak]

This game's defensive options are much better than SF6 i would say, because gaps in blockstrings could easily be exploited due to simple DP input

[Nauct]

Try blocking

[Sharkofspace]

Originally posted by Kaitsu:

This game is a big knowledge check. You also have spot dodge and slide dodge. A lot of characters can be spot dodged to turn the tides.

What's the point in spot dodging outside of the guard break? It just leaves you open to be punished. Same with rolling

[Fish]

Originally posted by Sharkofspace:

Originally posted by Kaitsu:

This game is a big knowledge check. You also have spot dodge and slide dodge. A lot of characters can be spot dodged to turn the tides.

What's the point in spot dodging outside of the guard break? It just leaves you open to be punished. Same with rolling

Depends on the move. If you try to spotdodge your opponent's light attack, you'll likely get punished on recovery. However, if you spotdodge their heavy attack, then you can potentially steal the turn that way. Spotdodge also works well against opponent's special since if you completely dodge the move, you don't even take chip damage.
A common application is, if you noticed your opponent has the tendency to do auto combo into a special, you can try to spotdodge after the autocombo to make the followup whiff.

Rolling can serve a similar purpose but its iframe isn't frame one so you'll wanna be careful not to get hit during start up and recovery. You can roll through a lot of projectile attacks to approach your opponent (assuming the projectile doesn't travel along the ground). Or if your opponent is being defensive, rolling through them also works as a crossup, assuming your opponent doesn't react though so use it sparingly.
Rolling can also roll through a lot of attacks as long as they're not hitting low, but gotta ensure the iframe lines up with the active frames of the said attack or you may end up getting hit.

Key takeaway is, you wanna spotdodge attacks that have slower recovery so that you have a better chance of punishing the whiffed move.

[Sharkofspace]

Originally posted by Fish:

Originally posted by Sharkofspace:

What's the point in spot dodging outside of the guard break? It just leaves you open to be punished. Same with rolling

Depends on the move. If you try to spotdodge your opponent's light attack, you'll likely get punished on recovery. However, if you spotdodge their heavy attack, then you can potentially steal the turn that way. Spotdodge also works well against opponent's special since if you completely dodge the move, you don't even take chip damage.
A common application is, if you noticed your opponent has the tendency to do auto combo into a special, you can try to spotdodge after the autocombo to make the followup whiff.

Rolling can serve a similar purpose but its iframe isn't frame one so you'll wanna be careful not to get hit during start up and recovery. You can roll through a lot of projectile attacks to approach your opponent (assuming the projectile doesn't travel along the ground). Or if your opponent is being defensive, rolling through them also works as a crossup, assuming your opponent doesn't react though so use it sparingly.
Rolling can also roll through a lot of attacks as long as they're not hitting low, but gotta ensure the iframe lines up with the active frames of the said attack or you may end up getting hit.

Key takeaway is, you wanna spotdodge attacks that have slower recovery so that you have a better chance of punishing the whiffed move.

It's too laggy to dodge specials though? Even successfully dodging throws and command grabs gets you punished for 50%.

[LOWTIER]

Originally posted by kaksus:

This game's defensive options are much better than SF6 i would say, because gaps in blockstrings could easily be exploited due to simple DP input

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Fish]

Originally posted by Sharkofspace:

Originally posted by Fish:

Depends on the move. If you try to spotdodge your opponent's light attack, you'll likely get punished on recovery. However, if you spotdodge their heavy attack, then you can potentially steal the turn that way. Spotdodge also works well against opponent's special since if you completely dodge the move, you don't even take chip damage.
A common application is, if you noticed your opponent has the tendency to do auto combo into a special, you can try to spotdodge after the autocombo to make the followup whiff.

Rolling can serve a similar purpose but its iframe isn't frame one so you'll wanna be careful not to get hit during start up and recovery. You can roll through a lot of projectile attacks to approach your opponent (assuming the projectile doesn't travel along the ground). Or if your opponent is being defensive, rolling through them also works as a crossup, assuming your opponent doesn't react though so use it sparingly.
Rolling can also roll through a lot of attacks as long as they're not hitting low, but gotta ensure the iframe lines up with the active frames of the said attack or you may end up getting hit.

Key takeaway is, you wanna spotdodge attacks that have slower recovery so that you have a better chance of punishing the whiffed move.

It's too laggy to dodge specials though? Even successfully dodging throws and command grabs gets you punished for 50%.

By "laggy" do you mean network lag, or are you referring to getting frame trapped during blocking?
Assuming you mean the latter, you're correct in that sometimes, you cannot spotdodge in time for the special; hence knowledge is important in knowing what you can or cannot dodge. However, if you're attempting to spotdodge during a block string, while being frame trapped, your spotdodge will simply not come out so you don't have to worry about getting punished by that.
A bigger risk is, if your opponent is delaying input for their next attack. In which case, they COULD catch you on your recovery if you dodged when they didn't actually attack.

You cannot dodge command grab or throws correct. Those are hard counters for dodging.

You can setup the training dummy to repeat certain motions via input recording, then you can practice dodge timing this way.

It's hard to give you specific answers on when exactly you should dodge due to how many variables there are to consider. Different characters, different moves all require a different answer. Everything is situational.
Spotdodge and roll are powerful tools in the right situation, but you'd not want to use them all the time due to the inherent downsides.

[Sharkofspace]

Originally posted by Fish:

Originally posted by Sharkofspace:

It's too laggy to dodge specials though? Even successfully dodging throws and command grabs gets you punished for 50%.

By "laggy" do you mean network lag, or are you referring to getting frame trapped during blocking?
Assuming you mean the latter, you're correct in that sometimes, you cannot spotdodge in time for the special; hence knowledge is important in knowing what you can or cannot dodge. However, if you're attempting to spotdodge during a block string, while being frame trapped, your spotdodge will simply not come out so you don't have to worry about getting punished by that.
A bigger risk is, if your opponent is delaying input for their next attack. In which case, they COULD catch you on your recovery if you dodged when they didn't actually attack.

You can setup the training dummy to repeat certain motions via input recording, then you can practice dodge timing this way.

It's hard to give you specific answers on when exactly you should dodge due to how many variables there are to consider. Different characters, different moves all require a different answer. Everything is situational.
Spotdodge and roll are powerful tools in the right situation, but you'd not want to use them all the time due to the inherent downsides.

I'm talking about successfully dodging a move, but you still get hit afterwards because they recover from their whiffed move before you recover from your own dodge, even after successfully dodging an attack.

Or if you know a command grab is coming so you roll completely, visibly, all the way through them to the other side of your opponent, but it just warps you back into their hands anyway.

I basically don't use rolling or dodging outside of guard breaks. They just never work against anything else. I guess you can spot dodge some projectiles, but it's not really worth the risk.

[Fish]

Originally posted by Sharkofspace:

Originally posted by Fish:

By "laggy" do you mean network lag, or are you referring to getting frame trapped during blocking?
Assuming you mean the latter, you're correct in that sometimes, you cannot spotdodge in time for the special; hence knowledge is important in knowing what you can or cannot dodge. However, if you're attempting to spotdodge during a block string, while being frame trapped, your spotdodge will simply not come out so you don't have to worry about getting punished by that.
A bigger risk is, if your opponent is delaying input for their next attack. In which case, they COULD catch you on your recovery if you dodged when they didn't actually attack.

You can setup the training dummy to repeat certain motions via input recording, then you can practice dodge timing this way.

It's hard to give you specific answers on when exactly you should dodge due to how many variables there are to consider. Different characters, different moves all require a different answer. Everything is situational.
Spotdodge and roll are powerful tools in the right situation, but you'd not want to use them all the time due to the inherent downsides.

I'm talking about successfully dodging a move, but you still get hit afterwards because they recover from their whiffed move before you recover from your own dodge, even after successfully dodging an attack.

Or if you know a command grab is coming so you roll completely, visibly, all the way through them to the other side of your opponent, but it just warps you back into their hands anyway.

I basically don't use rolling or dodging outside of guard breaks. They just never work against anything else. I guess you can spot dodge some projectiles, but it's not really worth the risk.

Yea 'cause as mentioned, grabs/throws are hard counter to dodging.
Think of it as a constant game of rock paper scissors. Some actions will beat others.
If you know for sure a command grab is coming, you can try back hopping or even jumping.

For the cases where you got hit after a successful dodge, it meant you've dodged an attack that has low recovery so your opponent is able to attack again.

A good example of where spotdodge comes in handy is when Vira uses her install 623M (the horizontal DP).
Normally, if she uses this move, even if you block both hits, you'd be pushed far enough from her that you cannot punish her as she can recover before then. However, if you block the first hit, then spotdodge the 2nd hit, then you WILL be able to punish her in this case because the 2nd attack completely whiffed and you remain at the same spot without getting pushed away while also not having to worry about the frames you spend in blocking animation.

Another example is when SIegfried uses his big unblockable ultimate skill that also has super armor on start up, spotdodging is a great answer to punish that move.

Or, when dealing with Lowain's supers. All of his moves from both of his supers can be spotdodged without having to take chip damage. Attempting to block his SBA moves requires you to anticipate whether the next hit is overhead or low since he can do both, but if you simply spotdodge the moment you see any startup animation, you can just evade every move this way.