66+L vs. L (or 66L) - why "dash 6L" is actually balanced

[Infevo]

Let's do a quick comparison. I take Narmaya's moves in Kagura stance here as she is my main but you can apply the logic to most other characters.

66+L (or Dash 6L if you prefer that naming):
- It is >= 9 frame of startup; 9f if you consistently manage to plink it with the dash button. You cannot buffer the dash but have to link it frame perfect if you want to stagger a Dash 6L after something else.
- +2 on block
- +6 on hit
- advancing but cannot be cancelled

close L:
- 5 frame startup. (at least 46% better than Dash 6L)
- +4 on block (100% better than Dash 6L)
- +8 on hit (33% better than Dash 6L)
- not advancing but can be chained into triple strike and cancelled into specials

far L:
- 6 frame startup (at least 33% better than Dash 6L)
- +5 on block (150% better than Dash 5L)
- +9 on hit (50% better than Dash 6L)
- not advancing but can be cancelled into specials. Narmaya can also chain into triple strike from Kagura f.L.

=> You can advance with dash prior to cl.L or f.L with dash. Add the respective amount of frames you want to dash. But you can go into Dash 6L safely after making your opponent block your f.L if you perfectly link the 66+L after since there is no 4f move to beat it. I can run up 2L, 2L, 5L, then immediately go for 66+L and link it safely into L, LL and then make a decision if I want to do a special that is plus or maybe a special with a small gap to frame trap, I can throw, I can shimmy, I can go for overhead or low, I can disengage and try react to a jump or try to whiff punish.

In essence, shouldn't people cry more about close and far L than they do about 66+L? Hell, I can even fish more effectively for H counters after L on block. 66+Ls are much less reliable for that purpose and miss their whole point if you use them for that. The only thing that is strong about 66+L is the fact that they help you close a gap. And I agree the range advancing is a little much sometimes.
The way I see it is that people mostly complain about the +2 on block from a relatively quick advancing move. But dashing is relatively fast in this game as well and you get much more out of making your opponent block a f.L or cl.L compared to 66+L.

Thoughts?

edit:
Some people pointed out additional superiorities of cl.L over 66+L and I wanted to add/elaborate on some aspects:
- You can meaty with cl.L during okizeme and be perfectly safe against reversal DPs and SBAs. It recovers that fast. 66+L can certainly be used as meaty but it is unsafe.
- cl.L is really good in stagger pressure in order to bait reversals and other moves. It can even be used to bait Brave Counter
- cl.L is the only reliable quick move to follow up a spot dodge and punish a dodged move
- cl.L is a formidable tool for regulating range towards the opponent in order to throw out specific specials and make them safe/even/plus instead of unsafe/minus/even.
- cl.L is the best tool to check the opponent's gaps. and since it is mashable into triple strike you also get a hit confirm into combo
- cl.L half-breaks throws.

[Juihau]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Infevo:

Let's do a quick comparison. I take Narmaya's moves in Kagura stance here as she is my main but you can apply the logic to most other characters.

You've been misled. Narmaya is, unfortunately, the one character whose logic here doesn't apply to the rest of the cast. She doesn't have a far L in either stance, and the difference you've recorded is purely a result of hitting one frame later into the same attack's active frames. Most characters' far L leaves them at +1 on block, which is notably half the advantage 66L gives when blocked point-blank, and a small fraction of what Narm can get on her "far" L.

The only exceptions to this I can find are:

Lancelot (also doesn't have a far L, though his close L doesn't have nearly as much range as Narmaya's kagura L)
Metera (far L is +2, and also a low, that's kinda crazy)
Ladiva (far L is +2)
Ferry (far L is -5)
Vaseraga (far L is +2)
Yuel (another +2 low, though thankfully Yuel is not Metera)

Also some 66Ls, due to their advancing nature, can be up to +4 on block if spaced well.

[Infevo]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Juihau:

You've been misled. Narmaya is, unfortunately, the one character whose logic here doesn't apply to the rest of the cast. She doesn't have a far L in either stance, and the difference you've recorded is purely a result of hitting one frame later into the same attack's active frames. Most characters' far L leaves them at +1 on block, which is notably half the advantage 66L gives when blocked point-blank, and a small fraction of what Narm can get on her "far" L.

The only exceptions to this I can find are:

Lancelot (also doesn't have a far L, though his close L doesn't have nearly as much range as Narmaya's kagura L)
Metera (far L is +2, and also a low, that's kinda crazy)
Ladiva (far L is +2)
Ferry (far L is -5)
Vaseraga (far L is +2)
Yuel (another +2 low, though thankfully Yuel is not Metera)

Also some 66Ls, due to their advancing nature, can be up to +4 on block if spaced well.

Thank you for the clarification. Please, strike the f.L and keep this about cl.L.

Also if you type "66L" you certainly mean "66+L" not "66L", right?

[Absolute 0ne]

Light buttons don't reach anywhere near 66L in reach and distance.
66L is better compared to fM as far as pokes go, and it blows most of them out of the water.
A lot of f.Ms (especially poke orientated ones) feel like they belong in the first game and 66L is just objectively better.

Also if you hit with the very tip of 66L, it can be up to +4 which means you can just do it again and beat any non-reversal move they could throw out since the opponent's cL wont reach and a lot of fLs are 6 frames.

Also my characters fL is only +1

[Infevo]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Absolute 0ne:

Light buttons don't reach anywhere near 66L in reach and distance.
66L is better compared to fM as far as pokes go, and it blows most of them out of the water.
A lot of f.Ms (especially poke orientated ones) feel like they belong in the first game and 66L is just objectively better.

Also if you hit with the very tip of 66L, it can be up to +4 which means you can just do it again and beat any non-reversal move they could throw out since the opponent's cL wont reach and a lot of fLs are 6 frames.

If you write "66L" you certainly mean "66+L" or "Dash 6L", right? Because 66L is only a dash followed by 5L.

I also took the range into account when comparing. Please, re-read my post. My case is that the frame data is clearly in favor of cl.L in each regard and it brings its own utility.

Neither do I think anyone will consistently link +4 Dash 6Ls into subsequent 5 frame Dash 6Ls. +4 Dash 6Ls are too rare of an occurence anyway and they are next to impossible to confirm into another frame perfect Dash 6L.

[Absolute 0ne]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Infevo:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Absolute 0ne:

Light buttons don't reach anywhere near 66L in reach and distance.
66L is better compared to fM as far as pokes go, and it blows most of them out of the water.
A lot of f.Ms (especially poke orientated ones) feel like they belong in the first game and 66L is just objectively better.

Also if you hit with the very tip of 66L, it can be up to +4 which means you can just do it again and beat any non-reversal move they could throw out since the opponent's cL wont reach and a lot of fLs are 6 frames.

If you write "66L" you certainly mean "66+L" or "Dash 6L", right? Because 66L is only a dash followed by 5L.

I also took the range into account when comparing. Please, re-read my post. My case is that the frame data is clearly in favor of cl.L in each regard and it brings its own utility.

Neither do I think anyone will consistently link +4 Dash 6Ls into subsequent 5 frame Dash 6Ls. +4 Dash 6Ls are too rare of an occurence anyway and they are next to impossible to confirm into another frame perfect Dash 6L.

I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
66L is what the community calls the move 66+L just looks stupid and people wont type that. You can literally press L at the same time as the second 6 and it will come out. Or you can hold 6 until you press L. Dash cL/fL would be like 665L.

If you think dash up fL/cL has more utility, then you go ahead and try that on a few other characters against someone using 66L - It will go poorly for you. Especially on characters with slow dashes.

+4 66L is not that rare. The move advances until the last frame, it can land in range just as the last active frame is playing due to spacing. Also I've seen a few framekills and setups to guarantee it lands on the last active frame. Its not too especially hard to confirm either for my character due to how deep his lunge is during the animation. I know its not a normal +2 and could be +3 or 4 because it defiantly looks different when hitting. 66L into 66L is not a bad option by default anyways. It's not hard to have a frame perfect dash plink 66L with this game's buffers.

I don't even really dislike the move because its strong, To me, its ugly to see any move be spammable and loop the defender in RPS situations.

[Infevo]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Absolute 0ne:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Infevo:

If you write "66L" you certainly mean "66+L" or "Dash 6L", right? Because 66L is only a dash followed by 5L.

I also took the range into account when comparing. Please, re-read my post. My case is that the frame data is clearly in favor of cl.L in each regard and it brings its own utility.

Neither do I think anyone will consistently link +4 Dash 6Ls into subsequent 5 frame Dash 6Ls. +4 Dash 6Ls are too rare of an occurence anyway and they are next to impossible to confirm into another frame perfect Dash 6L.

I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
66L is what the community calls the move 66+L just looks stupid and people wont type that. You can literally press L at the same time as the second 6 and it will come out. Or you can hold 6 until you press L. Dash cL/fL would be like 665L.

If you think dash up cL has more utility, then you go ahead and try that on a few other characters against someone using 66L - It will go poorly for you.

+4 66L is not that rare. The move advances until the last frame, it can land in range just as the last active frame is playing due to spacing. Also I've seen a few framekills and setups to guarantee it lands on the last frame. Its not too especially hard to confirm either for my character due to how deep his lunge is during the animation. I know its not a normal +2 and could be +3 or 4 because it defiantly looks different when hitting. 66L into 66L is not a bad option by default anyways.

I don't even really dislike the move because its strong, To me, its ugly to see any move be spammable and loop the defender in RPS situations.

I do not care about what the community thinks when it comes to notations as long as I am factually correct and the notation for Dash 6L is not 66L but 66+L. Always was, always is and always will be.

You just fail to provide any argument for why 66+L is particularly broken when cl.L has better properties in each and every single regard, gives you frame trap options, links and cancels. The only aspect in which 66+L beats cl.L is advancing movement. That's it.

You sound like someone who genuinely believes that chaining Dash 6Ls into one another is a valid strat and conditioning people into sitting still for shimmies or run up 5Ls is not a thing. It is not loopable. The math is very clear on that. And fyi, everything you do that is meant to reduce the opponent's lifebar is RPS. Every single micro decision intended to cause or avoid damage IS based on RPS.

[Absolute 0ne]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Infevo:

You just fail to provide any argument for why 66+L is particularly broken when cl.L has better properties in each and every single regard, gives you frame trap options, links and cancels. The only aspect in which 66+L beats cl.L is advancing movement. That's it.

You sound like someone who genuinely believes that chaining Dash 6Ls into one another is a valid strat and conditioning people into sitting still for shimmies or run up 5Ls is not a thing. It is not loopable. The math is very clear on that. And fyi, everything you do that is meant to reduce the opponent's lifebar is RPS. Every single micro decision intended to cause or avoid damage IS based on RPS.

Saying cL is better than 66L without considering the range and advancing movement is like saying cL is better than fH for the same reasons...you are ignoring one of the strongest advantages of the move. These moves are not the same, and you can't really compare them. Like I said before, they are closer to fM moves if you want to draw comparisons.

Looping 66L works because you can do something like 66L > fL/cL > 2M/2L (or other permutations) or 66L > fL > 66L
If you mash after fL to catch the dash attack, then their frame trap his you. Its like babies first RPS pressure it's so simple.

Since you are a Narmaya player, here is the #1 Narmaya in the world spamming 66L @7:14
https://youtu.be/gjZwa9otBf4?si=lQlL-cUeCi4ZnRdr&t=434

[[reaVerNL@Rumble]ᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ]

Where's the 66L spam in that video?

Also the argument presented as to why 66L is balanced is complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, as stated by other people it compares the wrong values and ignores key attributes.

The reason that 66L is balanced is because it's a 9 frame move beaten by other 9 frame moves. It can be low profiled by 2U or certain characters' 66M. If it's done too predictably you can throw someone out of their 66L, or you can crossover. The reason people don't mash 66L every chance they get is because players already know this and punish this move really hard if they see it coming. 66L just punishes passive players.

[Absolute 0ne]

Oprindeligt skrevet af reaVerNL@Rumbleᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ:

Where's the 66L spam in that video?

7:14

[Infevo]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Absolute 0ne:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Infevo:

You just fail to provide any argument for why 66+L is particularly broken when cl.L has better properties in each and every single regard, gives you frame trap options, links and cancels. The only aspect in which 66+L beats cl.L is advancing movement. That's it.

You sound like someone who genuinely believes that chaining Dash 6Ls into one another is a valid strat and conditioning people into sitting still for shimmies or run up 5Ls is not a thing. It is not loopable. The math is very clear on that. And fyi, everything you do that is meant to reduce the opponent's lifebar is RPS. Every single micro decision intended to cause or avoid damage IS based on RPS.

Saying cL is better than 66L without considering the range and advancing movement is like saying cL is better than fH for the same reasons...you are ignoring one of the strongest advantages of the move. These moves are not the same, and you can't really compare them. Like I said before, they are closer to fM moves if you want to draw comparisons.

Looping 66L works because you can do something like 66L > fL/cL > 2M/2L (or other permutations) or 66L > fL > 66L
If you mash after fL to catch the dash attack, then their frame trap his you. Its like babies first RPS pressure it's so simple.

Since you are a Narmaya player, here is the #1 Narmaya in the world spamming 66L @4:14
https://youtu.be/gjZwa9otBf4?si=lQlL-cUeCi4ZnRdr&t=434

I am not saying that cl.L is better than 66+L. I am only stating the facts that it is superior in each and every regard other than the mobility 66+L provides. And I propose that people should maybe consider the data and the facts and compare these two moves side by side before coming to the conclusion that one is broken and has to be removed and the other is perfectly fine and should not even be talked about.
I do not even disagree that the advancing of a 66+L may compensate for its other inferiority to cl.L.

I do not understand the logic behind your "loop" can you count the frames for me? You have +2 and the next 66+L comes out in 9 frames at best. That's 7 frames. Any L or M fits into this gap. Sure you can go for cl.L after 66+L for +4. The next 66+L must be frame perfect to not trade with a 5f cl.L
- You must be in range for cl.L to consider a "loop"
- You have to input the dash the very frame the recovery of the cl.L ends
- You have to plink it perfectly into 6L
Sure you can do this but it still is not a frame trap. it is trade if you are perfect. There are better options but nothing speaks against mixing it up and throwing in an inferior option once in a while to throw people off.

@4:14 I do not see 66+Ls. Perhaps you meant that short sequence @7:14. It was the only occurence I could spot from skimming through this video. It did not lead anywhere and neither did he really spam it. He went for 2, then delayed it and went for another one after a dash, then went for 5L then 66+L again. He makes much more use of his 5L throughout the whole video. I even dare you count the 66+Ls throughout the first two minutes of the game. And it is quite telling that you had no better examples and very much proved my point with this video. You had to go through the whole video to find one insignificant sequence. Congratulations, buddy.... He clearly is not spamming or overly using it where it becomes too prevalent and "ugly". In fact, he is abusing the crap out of 5L rightfully so. Because it is superior in every regard.
Check out @1:06 onwards and count the 5Ls on the other hand throughout the game he uses in pressure for stagger, frametraps, checks and for linking all kinds of stuff. I go for 5L into sweeps for the untechable knockdowns all the time. Another thing you cannot do with 66+L. It also helps you regulate the distance for specific 214Ls to be up to +4 on block.

I was specifically prompted to open this thread after watching SonicSol rant about this game and make fun of it by spamming nothing but 66+Ls against some of the noobiest players I have seen. He still kept losing to them and kept saying the game is trash.
I notice this a lot against people who overuse it upclose where there is absolutely no reason to use it when they could get cl.L in 5 frames and get more out of it. People are already conditioned into thinking it is a universal and preferred combo tool from any range. That's how dumb the hype around it is. Again, you guys pretend like shimmying is not a thing and walk up throw is not effective against turles. As if this game was not revolving around strike/throw unlike its competitors. Once the opponent is conditioned to sit and wait you can run up and cl.L for much more reward. Even if it takes 12 frames instead of 9 frames in total to dash up and cl.L it is worth it easily. Hell, it is not like anyone could react to 20 frame moves anyway.

[Absolute 0ne]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Infevo:

@4:14 I do not see 66+Ls. Perhaps you meant that short sequence @7:14. It was the only occurence I could spot from skimming through this video.

It was a typo, yes i meant 7:14 - it is also used in a frame trap @2:46
Yes of course lights are better, I already said they were better because their range is so limited compared to 66L. 66L can LEAD into L buttons though.

You have the worst perspective on the move since Narmaya's 5L is probably the best in the game - they have uniquely high range and good frame data. She has really good L options other than 66L, but this is not universally the case.

A lot of the cast have stubby, slow, or just unique L buttons. Vaseraga has a 7f cL, 8 frame fL. Soriz has a 7 frame low as his fL but has one of the longest 66Ls (seriously, it reaches just short of round start distance) - And Percival's fL can't hit crouching characters very well. After 66L Belial can use his 7 frame 2M in addition to fL which are both +1.

[Nauct]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Infevo:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Absolute 0ne:

Saying cL is better than 66L without considering the range and advancing movement is like saying cL is better than fH for the same reasons...you are ignoring one of the strongest advantages of the move. These moves are not the same, and you can't really compare them. Like I said before, they are closer to fM moves if you want to draw comparisons.

Looping 66L works because you can do something like 66L > fL/cL > 2M/2L (or other permutations) or 66L > fL > 66L
If you mash after fL to catch the dash attack, then their frame trap his you. Its like babies first RPS pressure it's so simple.

Since you are a Narmaya player, here is the #1 Narmaya in the world spamming 66L @4:14
https://youtu.be/gjZwa9otBf4?si=lQlL-cUeCi4ZnRdr&t=434

I am not saying that cl.L is better than 66+L. I am only stating the facts that it is superior in each and every regard other than the mobility 66+L provides. And I propose that people should maybe consider the data and the facts and compare these two moves side by side before coming to the conclusion that one is broken and has to be removed and the other is perfectly fine and should not even be talked about.
I do not even disagree that the advancing of a 66+L may compensate for its other inferiority to cl.L.

I do not understand the logic behind your "loop" can you count the frames for me? You have +2 and the next 66+L comes out in 9 frames at best. That's 7 frames. Any L or M fits into this gap. Sure you can go for cl.L after 66+L for +4. The next 66+L must be frame perfect to not trade with a 5f cl.L
- You must be in range for cl.L to consider a "loop"
- You have to input the dash the very frame the recovery of the cl.L ends
- You have to plink it perfectly into 6L
Sure you can do this but it still is not a frame trap. it is trade if you are perfect. There are better options but nothing speaks against mixing it up and throwing in an inferior option once in a while to throw people off.

@4:14 I do not see 66+Ls. Perhaps you meant that short sequence @7:14. It was the only occurence I could spot from skimming through this video. It did not lead anywhere and neither did he really spam it. He went for 2, then delayed it and went for another one after a dash, then went for 5L then 66+L again. He makes much more use of his 5L throughout the whole video. I even dare you count the 66+Ls throughout the first two minutes of the game. And it is quite telling that you had no better examples and very much proved my point with this video. You had to go through the whole video to find one insignificant sequence. Congratulations, buddy.... He clearly is not spamming or overly using it where it becomes too prevalent and "ugly". In fact, he is abusing the crap out of 5L rightfully so. Because it is superior in every regard.
Check out @1:06 onwards and count the 5Ls on the other hand throughout the game he uses in pressure for stagger, frametraps, checks and for linking all kinds of stuff. I go for 5L into sweeps for the untechable knockdowns all the time. Another thing you cannot do with 66+L. It also helps you regulate the distance for specific 214Ls to be up to +4 on block.

I was specifically prompted to open this thread after watching SonicSol rant about this game and make fun of it by spamming nothing but 66+Ls against some of the noobiest players I have seen. He still kept losing to them and kept saying the game is trash.
I notice this a lot against people who overuse it upclose where there is absolutely no reason to use it when they could get cl.L in 5 frames and get more out of it. People are already conditioned into thinking it is a universal and preferred combo tool from any range. That's how dumb the hype around it is. Again, you guys pretend like shimmying is not a thing and walk up throw is not effective against turles. As if this game was not revolving around strike/throw unlike its competitors. Once the opponent is conditioned to sit and wait you can run up and cl.L for much more reward. Even if it takes 12 frames instead of 9 frames in total to dash up and cl.L it is worth it easily. Hell, it is not like anyone could react to 20 frame moves anyway.

Bro I watch all of this guys replays in game. Depending on the match up 66L might be his most used button.
Narmaya's game plan is 66L or whiff punish.
If in K stance I do 66L 5Lk 2Mk or 66L throw or 66L 5Lk throw. G stance 66L stance switch 2Mk stance switch 5Mg. Trust me I play this character and probably have watched more of his replays than anyone and on twitch. Unless it's a character with huge normals or a zoner it's 66L spam all the way down

[Unrighteous]

For those that know SF6, 66L honestly feels like Dee Jay's drive rush, except it doesn't cost meter and is even more difficult to react to.

[Manslayer]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Infevo:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Absolute 0ne:

I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
66L is what the community calls the move 66+L just looks stupid and people wont type that. You can literally press L at the same time as the second 6 and it will come out. Or you can hold 6 until you press L. Dash cL/fL would be like 665L.

If you think dash up cL has more utility, then you go ahead and try that on a few other characters against someone using 66L - It will go poorly for you.

+4 66L is not that rare. The move advances until the last frame, it can land in range just as the last active frame is playing due to spacing. Also I've seen a few framekills and setups to guarantee it lands on the last frame. Its not too especially hard to confirm either for my character due to how deep his lunge is during the animation. I know its not a normal +2 and could be +3 or 4 because it defiantly looks different when hitting. 66L into 66L is not a bad option by default anyways.

I don't even really dislike the move because its strong, To me, its ugly to see any move be spammable and loop the defender in RPS situations.

I do not care about what the community thinks when it comes to notations as long as I am factually correct and the notation for Dash 6L is not 66L but 66+L. Always was, always is and always will be.

You just fail to provide any argument for why 66+L is particularly broken when cl.L has better properties in each and every single regard, gives you frame trap options, links and cancels. The only aspect in which 66+L beats cl.L is advancing movement. That's it.

You sound like someone who genuinely believes that chaining Dash 6Ls into one another is a valid strat and conditioning people into sitting still for shimmies or run up 5Ls is not a thing. It is not loopable. The math is very clear on that. And fyi, everything you do that is meant to reduce the opponent's lifebar is RPS. Every single micro decision intended to cause or avoid damage IS based on RPS.

Btw they changed Zeta 66 because they realized that dash is 66L. Why you ask? Because you can press 66 and then L and you will get dash attack L instantly. If you want to make a better notation type d.L d.M d.H d signally dash, but honestly I don't care. You don't lose your basic c.l or f.l because you have 66l, you get them all and it is the fact you can use them all that is the problem.

[[reaVerNL@Rumble]ᚱᛖᚨᚠᛖᚱ]

Generally speaking M(f) and H(f) attacks are 9 frames. The reason they beat the dash attack is because they are heavier buttons and thus have priority. 2U is often somewhere near 7 frames and has both priority as well as evasive properties. Since 66Ls have more range than 5H(f) and thus 2U for most characters, you can auto confirm these 2 attacks into whatever combo you like because if these 2 connect you can be guaranteed it's a hit. Hence the way you stop 66L is the same way you stop just about every other (raw) assault plotted against you.

As for the spam, the reason I asked "Where is it?" is because I saw 2, maybe 3 dash attacks from Narmaya, which were then eclipsed by Siegfried doing his own dash attack spam. You now ask us to go through all the player's replays to see some matches where 66L was supposedly used excessively. I've seen much more excessive use of 66Ls, I've made more excessive use of 66Ls but careless use of this attack just gets punished really hard and as combo knowledge improves, the moves can get punished excessively hard as the punishment can be a 5k-6k corner carry combo followed up with a 8k-10k damage combo launched off of corner specific setups.

Hence someone living his life in ranked through 66L spam sounds unreasonable and is most likely not true. Again as stated earlier, people I play against all seem to know very well how to deal with 66L as they use a plethora of options available to them.

Again, I don't subscribe to the explanation given by Infevo in the opening post as it completely misses the point. But while useful, 66L isn't actually OP.