Nier Cagliostro and Metera players.

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[勇気]

Originally posted by Infevo:

Originally posted by Fish:

She can run out, but this is player-dependant. More skilled Nier players will know not to over extend pressure when attacks are clearly not hitting and it'd be more difficult to bait those out, but still, it does happen.
However, even while she has stacks, you can still hit Death on start up, or even on recovery and temporarily knock her out. This brief window where Nier lost access to all specials is the valuable timing for pushing for the offensives, just gotta be aware of when she gets Death back.

I am sure I get hit too often by her which is why she gets to end the rounds quickly and with few stacks anyway. You're probably right. I need way more experience versing her...

No, it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Nier will NOT run out of Death stacks. I don't know if you are in D rank or something but it's borderline impossible for her to do so.

[勇気]

Originally posted by Fish:

Originally posted by 勇気:

"Her normals without death are very suboptimal"

Ah, so you don't really know anything about Nier and simply are bullshitting based off her archetype. Got it.

Try playing Nier when Death is on CD. There's a reason why she gets super passive when Death is down either due to out of stacks or Death got hit.

Dude, you are completely talking out of your ass. This is categorically false. Unlike other puppet characters in other games, the downtime for death is so absurdly low it almost doesn't matter if she doesn't have her. Her normals are not nerfed, because all Nier needs for a conversion into an auto combo is 66L. By the time she finishes the combo, death is back.

This is insane, because most other cast members, including other top tiers, cannot do this.

Every single thing Nier does is also leads into a mixup, that if you get touched with, will lead into a full high damage combo. Again, almost no other cast member can do this. Nier is one of the only characters that gets a full combo off of her reversal. That's insane.

This goes far beyond "learning to deal with set play" At any given point Nier has so many options you have to deal with, it means that every time you try to attack her you are taking a massive risk. No other character is like this. I don't know how many basic ♥♥♥♥ Niers you get to fight in F rank, but literally just knowing when her puppet can be reversal'd is all that is required to get to S++ with Nier, because regardless of how good the person you are fighting is, you make them take so many guesses and chances with your overwhelming kit it's hard for anyone to consistently win against this broken pos character.

"Oh, but I'm going to wax poetic about some irrelevant ♥♥♥♥"

The numbers speak for themselves. The sheer volumes of Nier's in masters is no coincidence. And while other characters get special privileges (Six not caring about his position on the screen when it comes to neutral) THAT is all manageable, even if it makes him a good character. Nier's is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

[勇気]

Originally posted by AscendingHope:

VERY OLD and LATE reply, but I wanna touch in on Nier

First her strengths are obviously her insanely above average reward and amazing damage off basically any hit even midscreen. This is pretty out of line considering that 80% of characters dont get a good combo midscreen at all let alone good/amazing oki.
Her real pressure is also very very suffocating being very cheap on stocks and with proper conditioning too you could get away with alot more.
Her armored DP is also criminal and counterplay only exists when it's done on wakeup.
Her normals are also great even without death honestly, 2M is really the only big sufferer here without death honestly.

Her weaknesses? there's honestly so little, but the biggest and most obvious one is that she's a non character without death, she gets little to nothing anymore off any hit.
Her ult skills dont have the most use compared to alot of other characters.
Also you'll rarely ever run out of stocks with the character before ending the round and if you often do you're doing something wrong.
She's also pretty weak to good zoning
A major con, but also very negligible at the moment is that converting off stray hits is fairly difficult however the reason this is negligible is the fact that Nier can just flail random specials and just do enough/acceptable damage anyway.

anyway the most knowledge check ♥♥♥♥ she has is her "unblockable" setups, all you have to do is dodge twice. Once the RS and second the puppet.
The biggest advice I could give since I have alot of experience in the MU is to just be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ patient. Blocking is free and teching throws is free too.

My biggest ideas for a nerf to her is to simply nerf her damage and make 623H armor frame 4 instead of frame 1. The character is fundamentally overtuned, nothing you can do about it anymore

Without death, even if the Nier isn't aggressive, they just have to wait a small amount of time, and then they are ready to ex counter you, turning your pressure into being more dangerous than simply not attacking her anymore.

[天佑中共🐥the light]

dont diss my uncle pls

[Noel]

based (i play metera)

[Sigma993]

As a Nier (and Yuel) main myself I noticed most people honestly don't even know how to properly play against her. There are so many players, even in higher ranks that think spamming projectiles and being on the defense is the proper way to play against her and those games are usually an easy win. If you play like that then the problem is on you tbh!
Nier can't handle pressure at all, her defensive play is really bad so a rushdown playstyle is the answer to counter her! Characters like Djeeta, Gran and Yuel are some of the hardest matchups for her.
That said, Zeta and Seox are the two most broken characters in the game for me.
Especially Zeta feels completely overtuned and unfair.

[AscendingHope]

Originally posted by Sigma993:

As a Nier (and Yuel) main myself I noticed most people honestly don't even know how to properly play against her. There are so many players, even in higher ranks that think spamming projectiles and being on the defense is the proper way to play against her and those games are usually an easy win. If you play like that then the problem is on you tbh!
Nier can't handle pressure at all, her defensive play is really bad so a rushdown playstyle is the answer to counter her! Characters like Djeeta, Gran and Yuel are some of the hardest matchups for her.
That said, Zeta and Seox are the two most broken characters in the game for me.
Especially Zeta feels completely overtuned and unfair.

That's just straight downplay lol
Her defense is not bad at all.
I do agree most people dont know how to play vs her tho

[Kaitsu]

This mfer is losing to Metera, lmao

[Sigma993]

Originally posted by AscendingHope:

Originally posted by Sigma993:

As a Nier (and Yuel) main myself I noticed most people honestly don't even know how to properly play against her. There are so many players, even in higher ranks that think spamming projectiles and being on the defense is the proper way to play against her and those games are usually an easy win. If you play like that then the problem is on you tbh!
Nier can't handle pressure at all, her defensive play is really bad so a rushdown playstyle is the answer to counter her! Characters like Djeeta, Gran and Yuel are some of the hardest matchups for her.
That said, Zeta and Seox are the two most broken characters in the game for me.
Especially Zeta feels completely overtuned and unfair.

That's just straight downplay lol
Her defense is not bad at all.
I do agree most people dont know how to play vs her tho

Not sure why I'm downplaying her defensive play tbh!?
She doesn't really have any tools that help her much when she is defending, besides her basic attacks which are quiet bad.
There is a short animation when you first summon death and fast characters can easily interrupt that process.
Also experienced players will just frame trap and then punish you.

[AscendingHope]

Originally posted by Sigma993:

Originally posted by AscendingHope:

That's just straight downplay lol
Her defense is not bad at all.
I do agree most people dont know how to play vs her tho

Not sure why I'm downplaying her defensive play tbh!?
She doesn't really have any tools that help her much when she is defending, besides her basic attacks which are quiet bad.
There is a short animation when you first summon death and fast characters can easily interrupt that process.
Also experienced players will just frame trap and then punish you.

Her defensive play isn't bad dude, her 623H is currently one of the best reversals in the game at the moment with insane reward.
Her buttons are also not bad at all for mashing out. 5L and 2L are pretty adequate. Her c.M is also pretty adequate too, with its great activation range.

Saying her defense is bad is straight up downplay.

[Sigma993]

Originally posted by AscendingHope:

Originally posted by Sigma993:

Not sure why I'm downplaying her defensive play tbh!?
She doesn't really have any tools that help her much when she is defending, besides her basic attacks which are quiet bad.
There is a short animation when you first summon death and fast characters can easily interrupt that process.
Also experienced players will just frame trap and then punish you.

Her defensive play isn't bad dude, her 623H is currently one of the best reversals in the game at the moment with insane reward.
Her buttons are also not bad at all for mashing out. 5L and 2L are pretty adequate. Her c.M is also pretty adequate too, with its great activation range.

Saying her defense is bad is straight up downplay.

I mean her dp is pretty strong yes, but again, if you pressure Nier, especially in a corner she's not gonna land that hit.
Also all of her basic attacks lack range which results in a lot of whiff punishment.
If you go on yt and watch some of the high level Nier players, they usually just turtle and wait for the opponent to mess up.
I'm not saying she's bad at all but I personally don't think she's nearly as broken as people claim!
Also I trust ArcSys intended her to be like this in the game whether we like it or not!

[WickedMax]

Originally posted by Fish:

Originally posted by Bigamo:

I think you totally missed the point... The point is waiting for an eternity for 40+ hit combo to finish. And Vira is super broken, you can spam her autocombo all day without a single opening for context. There are like 5 or 6 totally broken Characters, who is playing those characters are the "good players" LOL.

I know that cause i am the gatekeeper for S in NA. I see those characters as soon as then enter as A5 and after they go to S as i am all the time going S to A and vice versa. The actual fun characters to play against are disapearing. The Niers become rare ocurrence as they all are in S++ or master already. XD Same with Seox, now are the Viras and Narmayas to walk over. It is just a huge coincidence that are always those characters, all the Dudes stuck in S with me as Sigfried stay in the same exact spot, until they change to one of those characters and walk by.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TVcqx7DUjQ&ab_channel=CeoStriker
You wanna tell me, this combo isn't long and you have no good combo as Siegfried? (seriously, look at how much dmg Sieg can deal from ONE combo)

As Siegfried, you can literally set it up so that landing one successful hit means game over for your opponent and this isn't broken according to your logic?
Yet you must blame other characters 'cause you don't know how to deal with them, was the essence of everything you've said.

Seriously, of all the characters, you're playing Siegfried who's considered a top tier pick that there're even plenty of ppl calling for a nerf (which I also disagree as Sieg has clear downsides too).

By your logic:
oh Ladiva has so many command grabs, and she can grab someone during a block string she must be broken.
oh Anre/Uno has a guard on demand that can chain into a full combo he must be broken.
oh Eustace can zone while having solid close range options and even a DP plus grenade set play. He must be broken.
oh Lowain can summon his bros and katapillar robot to confuse the opponent while he himself rushes in for setups. He can even parry and install for super he must be broken.

and the list goes on.

See the problem? When everyone can be broken depending on how you look at it, that simply means everything is balanced as each character is good at something.

It all comes down to: LEARN!

You need match up specific knowledge. Blame shifting isn't gonna help you learn.

While I kinda agree with the content of your posts, that ToD combo has a pretty specific setup that is in no way comparable to 66L->into 50% combo damage.
I still agree that people need to learn the matchup though, personally I have fun fighting against Niers because it feels like bossfight from another game, Metera is annoying but doable, and Cagliostro is a literal knowledge check, pretty honest character all things considered. I struggle way more against those beast Gran/Djeeta players who know frame data by heart.

[Bigamo]

Originally posted by WickedMax:

Originally posted by Fish:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TVcqx7DUjQ&ab_channel=CeoStriker
You wanna tell me, this combo isn't long and you have no good combo as Siegfried? (seriously, look at how much dmg Sieg can deal from ONE combo)

As Siegfried, you can literally set it up so that landing one successful hit means game over for your opponent and this isn't broken according to your logic?
Yet you must blame other characters 'cause you don't know how to deal with them, was the essence of everything you've said.

Seriously, of all the characters, you're playing Siegfried who's considered a top tier pick that there're even plenty of ppl calling for a nerf (which I also disagree as Sieg has clear downsides too).

By your logic:
oh Ladiva has so many command grabs, and she can grab someone during a block string she must be broken.
oh Anre/Uno has a guard on demand that can chain into a full combo he must be broken.
oh Eustace can zone while having solid close range options and even a DP plus grenade set play. He must be broken.
oh Lowain can summon his bros and katapillar robot to confuse the opponent while he himself rushes in for setups. He can even parry and install for super he must be broken.

and the list goes on.

See the problem? When everyone can be broken depending on how you look at it, that simply means everything is balanced as each character is good at something.

It all comes down to: LEARN!

You need match up specific knowledge. Blame shifting isn't gonna help you learn.

While I kinda agree with the content of your posts, that ToD combo has a pretty specific setup that is in no way comparable to 66L->into 50% combo damage.
I still agree that people need to learn the matchup though, personally I have fun fighting against Niers because it feels like bossfight from another game, Metera is annoying but doable, and Cagliostro is a literal knowledge check, pretty honest character all things considered. I struggle way more against those beast Gran/Djeeta players who know frame data by heart.

The guy put a combo finishing with a super and with level 3 sigfried buff (50% extra damage?) XD

There are a lot of fun matchups in the game, they just aren't played cause everyone is playing the cheap characters. Sigfried is probably the ONLY character in game that is MINUS in everymove XD that's why people spam 66L with him, one of the few moves that are plus on block.

But the point is that those infinite combo guys are BORING.

[Nauct]

Originally posted by Bigamo:

Originally posted by WickedMax:

While I kinda agree with the content of your posts, that ToD combo has a pretty specific setup that is in no way comparable to 66L->into 50% combo damage.
I still agree that people need to learn the matchup though, personally I have fun fighting against Niers because it feels like bossfight from another game, Metera is annoying but doable, and Cagliostro is a literal knowledge check, pretty honest character all things considered. I struggle way more against those beast Gran/Djeeta players who know frame data by heart.

The guy put a combo finishing with a super and with level 3 sigfried buff (50% extra damage?) XD

There are a lot of fun matchups in the game, they just aren't played cause everyone is playing the cheap characters. Sigfried is probably the ONLY character in game that is MINUS in everymove XD that's why people spam 66L with him, one of the few moves that are plus on block.

But the point is that those infinite combo guys are BORING.

Seig has like 8 moves that can be plus, literally more than anyone else I believe

[AscendingHope]

Originally posted by Sigma993:

Originally posted by AscendingHope:

Her defensive play isn't bad dude, her 623H is currently one of the best reversals in the game at the moment with insane reward.
Her buttons are also not bad at all for mashing out. 5L and 2L are pretty adequate. Her c.M is also pretty adequate too, with its great activation range.

Saying her defense is bad is straight up downplay.

I mean her dp is pretty strong yes, but again, if you pressure Nier, especially in a corner she's not gonna land that hit.
Also all of her basic attacks lack range which results in a lot of whiff punishment.
If you go on yt and watch some of the high level Nier players, they usually just turtle and wait for the opponent to mess up.
I'm not saying she's bad at all but I personally don't think she's nearly as broken as people claim!
Also I trust ArcSys intended her to be like this in the game whether we like it or not!

Everyone turtles lol, it's the right thing to do and these are the same people I fight myself.
Her defense, is not bad.
This seems like your own skill issue and that your own defense is bad