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討論區規矩與守則
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Any ARPG on the market that allows singleplayer as well as multiplayer & puts the game first ahead of any stupid money-making mechanic (I'm looking at you Auction House) already gets my vote as being better than Diablo 3. Even Dungeon Siege 3, I'm sorry to say, was way more fun compared to Diablo 3.
But if you were to compare any ARPG (& I do mean any) to Diablo 2... no way in hell as Diablo 2 is still leagues ahead.
What makes that funny is that I have been buying Blizzard games since the original The Lost Vikings game on the SNES they made way back 1992. So I actually consider myself a fan of theirs. Blizzard has simply forgotten what matters most to them... their fans.
As for Van Helsing, I purchased this game during the steam sale as it looked like it had a hell of a lot of style. It's buggy... but so was Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall on launch. And Daggerfall (fully patched) is still in my top 3 RPG's of all time (along with System Shock & UIltima VII Complete). So compared to what I've been able to play of Van Helsing... I'm willing to wait for the patches.
Lets list the biggest ARPG's and quickly compare them to Van Helsing(personal opinions); Path of Exile, Torchlight 2, Diablo 3. They all excel at something.
Gameplay
D3 10/10 The strength of Diablo3 is just killing whatever, destroying things with cool abilites.
VH 9/10 It feels good, it sounds great, it looks... not as good, some visuals are underwhelming.
TL2 5/10 Not very smooth. No canceling animations. Pretty cool abilities.
PoE 5/10 Repetitive, some spells are boring. It used to have alot of hitbox issues with projectiles. I heard they had some updates regarding that but haven't tried it. Fun-to-face enemies and can be made to be really challenging.
Customization
D3 3/10 5 Unique classes. The spell system fits the game but it still feels weird to me.
VH 0/10 1 Class, 1 Companion, 2 skill trees with quite limited options. 4 weapon types. Characters look too alike(Most armour looks pretty much the same).
TL2 9/10 4 Classes with 3 pretty good skill trees. Some cool item affixes to build around like + Pet Damage.
PoE 9/10 Jaw dropped when I first saw that talent tree. Not 10/10 because I think the skill system is kindof flawed and because of that pretty much the only difference between classes is how they look.
Itemization
D3 1/10 This used to be -7/10, it has been improved but not enough. Only + is many different types of items and looks. Drops and crafting are just horrible.
VH 7/10 Alot of drops! Crafting system is really good, fast and easy. But i'm really missing maces, axes, polearms, crossbows, etc.
TL2 9/10 Many different stats, lots of sets and looks. It's really great.
PoE 7/10 It's good, not much to say.
Content
Mashing story/areas and replayability together here because this is getting way too long.
D3 12/20 The story in itself is pretty meh but the cinematics are out of this world. Alooooot of different areas and monsters. The endgame is okayish but it feels like they screwed themselves over by adding the auction house. The only thing to do is farm gear but the looting systems became garbage to balance the AH.
VH 9/20 Customization plays a vital role in the replayability of a game. Since it lacks the first the other suffers, also low lvl cap and no nightmare/hell advancement shortens the game by huge amounts. The story isn't excactly engaging but the dialogue is really good. The only complaint I have about the areas is that there are too few of them. The side quests/events are AMAZING.
TL2 17/20 The Maproom and mods offer alot of options endgame. The newgame+ system is smart. Because of the options given by the good customization you are able to try the same thing but differently. I have 4 engineers and they aren't at all similar(tank, summoner, ranged, 2h fighter). The areas are okayish, monster variety is good but the sidequests are pretty bad. I have no idea what the story is so I assume it's really awful since I've played through it about 10 times.
PoE 13/20 I know I liked the story when I played through it but since it has faded from memory, it can't have been THAT good. The areas are okay, really nothing special. The massive talent tree helps with the longevity of the game, there is a lot of experimentation to be done here. But it has been pretty settled what is best for higher difficulties and hardcore.
Summary
D3 26/50
VH 25/50
TL2 40/50 I appearently really like this game.
PoE 34/50
Conclusion
VH is a good game, on par with bigger games in some aspects. But it really lacks where I think it matters most. The game needs more options and more content to survive any longer period of time. Classes, talents, skills, unique looks and another act. That is what I think they need to grow the game. And now this monster of a post finally reaches its point: I disagree OP, this game is not better than any other of its genre but it definately could be. It has a whole lot of potential.
But they will probably just make a sequel instead, building a fanbase is too much hard work.
Excuse bad formatting plsz
Gameplay... Content (or story & replayability)... both of these go hand & hand. They shouldn't be seperated as they both define what gameplay really is. If you were to cut Diablo 3 down to a single room & remove itemization/story completely... the gameplay would be less than 0.
And do keep in mind that nice shiny graphics do not make or even equal great gameplay. You could make the game with graphics that are on par with Cave Story+ (A really fun game by the way) & it could still turn out to be the best ARPG ever made. Gameplay is all about flow...like for example: Do all the different elements of the game work well? Does every aspect & element of the game mesh well with one another? Etc. etc. Diablo 3 fails at this horribly. It looks nice on paper... but the field results of actually playing the game fail miserably.
1. Horribly bad itemization: Without itemization, Diablo 3's gameplay is boring & falls completely flat. Other game types might not need itemization... but for an ARPG (especially one of Diablo's caliber)... the game itself can live or die based solely on that aspect alone.
2. Boring/Unimportant story: The cinematics do not help as looking nice never equalled depth in games.
3. Extremely lazy level design: Diablo 1 & 2 are older but the level randomization plus the great itemization in the two complimented each other... added to the replayability... & were really great. Diablo 3's levels feel really poor on the other hand plus they give no real incentive to actually explore as the itemization is near worthless... equalling no real need. Just get from point A to point B as quick as possible.
I could go on & on...
Now Van Helsing does need it share of patches to be fully playable. And one could argue (I don't agree... but I consent that it could be argued at least) that it doesn't pass Diablo 3 based solely upon that part alone. But if & when it does get those patches, Diablo 3 just doesn't have enough to even compare as the bugs in Van Helsing are minor & patchable (and the developers have shown interest in fixing them). Diablo 3's problems need nothing short of a massive overhaul to fix in which I doubt Blizzard is willing to invest the money in as they only show any care in making sure the Auction House works & nothing more.
Obviously all of these games would be boring as hell with literally 1 room. However I agree that things go hand in hand. The content improves the gameplay and vice versa. The reason that I try to keep them apart is that there is a difference between the how/what and the who/where/why etc and what it becomes. You could lack in some of these things and still have a good game experience. While playing VH is fun you still have to consider the longevity of the game.
Because of the lack in customization, short content and absent endgame VH in its current state is a 2-3 playthrough game and then you are done. Lets say 50 hours of good fighting and great areas for the sake of comparison. Is this more valuable than some customization, longer content and bad endgame? Lets say you play every class to 60, thats probably close to 100 hours of good fighting and decent areas, playing through inferno could add alot more too.
What's better? It is just opinion based. All 4 games are better than the others in some way and what's most valued is up to oneself. I realise my logic is kindoff skewed since I base it off my own experience which other don't have to share.
But I think we are pretty much on the same page in the sense that VH definately COULD/WOULD outshine the competition with some(quite large) updates.
I totally agree with you! Daggerfall is my best RPG out there with a huge distance between the others. No other game has that depth!
johlarsteelneck, that's why I said I had a problem with your ratings.
You can't give a 10 in gameplay to Diablo 3 when everything in the game is simply broken on account of the Auction House or Blizzard being too lazy/cheap. Let's face it... Diablo 3's main game is the Auction House as everything else is simply too unimportant for Blizzard to be arsed to fix. Of all the things that were broken or missing at launch (& some still are)... what do they concentrate on the most? The damn AH of all things. Have they even added the PvP in the game yet? I don't even know as I gave up & uninstalled the game a while ago.
As for longevity or replayability... for an ARPG... we come to expect it in the game now. But those are not a requirement or a standard in any game type. They are a bonus. To further illustrate this point... Full Throttle. An Adventure from LucasArts masterminded by Tim Schafer (yes, different genre, I know). That game is very short (8hrs. tops if you're bad at adventure games). But it was an extremely fun adventure game (one I still own) & I would still pay full retail price for if it came out today. On the other hand... I would not pay retail for Diablo 3. Not even $20 as the game stands right now just isn't worth it. Is it fun? No... it's tedious. I had more fun playing Torchlight 1 & Dungeon Siege 3 for crying out loud.
But if you were to argue that longevity point for Diablo 3... it has none. And I don't mean it has 10% or maybe even 20%... nope... none. The level design is poor. The drops are worthless on account of the AH. The game gives no incentive to even explore at all. Just hurry up as quickly as you can to the exit/boss as fast as possible. DOOM 1 gave better incentive than that. Hell... Wolfenstein 3D gave more than that. All those classes, all the stats & abilities, all of spells... all of it becomes worthless when the game is so messed up that it eliminates your entire reason for playing it.
As for all those shiny graphics & effects Diablo 3 has while fighting or casting spells. You can slap as many fresh coats of paint over a turd as much as you want... that won't change what's underneath.
Basically Diablo 3 is a train-wreck that a simple small patch couldn't fix without overhauling every single aspect of the game from top to bottom. When Blizzard got rid of/lost most of the main people from Blizzard North... they lost the only people working for them that actually understood how ARPGs work & exactly what made them fun.
Now Van Helsing's problems or bugs mainly stem from either the multiplayer not fully working or the game acting glitchy on low-end pc's. Now there are a few minor bugs here & there that don't stem from either of those like disappearing items & such... but all of those bugs can be easily fixed with some time & a small patch. Like Daggerfall, when that occurs, the game will be rock solid afterwards. Of course we could all ask for a dozen more character classes to be added & maybe some more skills or weapon types... but that really doesn't deter from the overall enjoyment of the game. Also, with or without replayability... the game is more fun to actually play compared to Diablo 3's broken mess.
I actually want to feel rewarded when exploring. I want to feel rewarded when grinding. Diablo 3 doesn't really offer this. Diablo 1 got everything that made a ARPG (or a Rogue RPG simplified... if you prefer) fun. Diablo 3 is worse than Diablo 1 in every way possible. And yes, that is not a mistake, I said Diablo 1... not 2... even though 2 was better than 1. I'll even admit that is an extremely bold statement... but I'm willing to stand behind it.
The problems with Diablo 3 aren't based on the Auction House. Anyone who has gotten more than one character to 60 can point out the real problem: the itemization is too poor. The way stats work in Diablo 3, you are interested mainly in stacking items that increase your damage stat and your health, and everything else is secondary (except for allresist).
The problem, simply put, is that you can't get away with strange, crazy builds because the game's items don't support it. You can't find a thorn plate that refelcts 40% of damage and build a barbarian around that, because they don't exist. Blaming the AH for the game's problems is like pointing out the reason a car blew up is because it had fuel in it---it's symptomatic, and it's an ingredient that helps the problem, but it certainly isn't the thing that set it off.
The funny thing is, Diablo 2 had all of these same problems on release. It wasn't until an expansion pack that introduced runes and unique gems and a ton of patching that the economy leveled out and the game got the depth and fun that people remember.
All that said, Diablo 3 is currently the largest ARPG on the planet, so there are some people who are still playing it and loving it. Torchlight 2 just got to 2 million copies sold. As of March, there were still 1 million unique D3 players a day. The game is by no means a failure.
Van Helsing is bird of a different feather. The gameplay is rough and unpolished, the skill tree is pretty simplistic, and the game doesn't have enough depth (or a high enough level cap) to ever turn into a grind-fest. There are neat and interesting mechanisms, like the passive skill tree, the companion-based passives, the weapon abilities with goals to unlock them, and the skill modifiers that let you change skills in small ways on the fly. Spend a month playing at level 30 and tell me if it isn't boring.
D3 is all about corporate greed, plain and simple. Blizzard cares only about how many monthly subscriptions they have. The game itself means nothing to them. They proved it when they fired everyone at Blizzard North, the only ones who could have made a D3 that everyone would buy, and keep playing it for years (like D2) because it was FUN.
I'm sorry, but endless grinding for sh_tty items, or just giving up and paying real money for items that you should be able to find in the game for free, is not my idea of fun. Van Helsing I will admit probably won't have staying power due to the lack of random levels and limited character choices. But by God is it fun to play! Great graphics, game play, dialog, is free to play, AND can be played off-line.
Basically, any ARPG that gets those things right is automatically a better game than Diablows 3..
Drops are like the bread-&-butter of any ARPG. Most fond memories people have of Diablo 2 was finding new items & checking to see if it was an upgrade compared to the item they already have. Looking for even a small upgrade to their current items. Diablo 2 is still being played to this day... that says a lot about the skill of the people that were at Blizzard North.
If you nerf the drops... you kill the game.
I'm sorry, man, but this reads like a conspiracy theory and a lot of it is factually wrong.
Blizzard's actions speak for themselves. I used to support Blizzard back when there was a Blizzard North, before Blizzard's corporate suits became obsessed with how many millions of dollars they could rake in every month. I loved D1 and D2; played them to death. I waited on pins and needles for D3 for years, and what did we get when it finally came out? Pay to play World of Diablocraft. What an incredible let-down. Thankfully there are lots of other options out there now; no one need ever give money to Blizzard again..