Shady/Unethical business practices.

[ntall1]

This isnt new news to anyone that has dealt with Ankama and their premium currency Ogrines in the past, but might be news to new players.

The premium currency that Ankama games offers is Ogrines. These have a default shelf life on your account of 3 months. If you buy larger amounts that time window is a tiny bit longer, but not by much. Long story shorty, your premium currency expires.

While this might be totaly legal in france, the country that Ankama operates out of, it is not legal in pretty much all of the US, and lots of places in EU. As most of us know, if you choose to offer a service outside of your own country/state, you must abide by the laws of the country/state you choose to offer that service in.

The other problem with this is that you have to dig on their website to find any info about expiring Ogrines. They do not mention this anywhere when making a purchase from their website.

What makes this worse is that Ankama incentives you to buy larger amounts at one time. You can use your Ogrines for only a few practical things like subscription, respec, or items that allow you to better manage your runes. Other than that everything else is cosmetic and pretty usless. So your Ogrines just sit there waiting for you to sub each month.

If you are like me, you have little to no intrest in cosmetic items and pretty much use your Ogrines to sub. Well, 4 months later I should still have had about $30 left of Ogrines left on my account, went to sub and was told I had 0 Ogrines.

After contacting Ankama about my missing Ogrines and waiting 7 weeks for a responce I was informed about how they expire and if I need more I will have to make another purcahse. Obviously I was not happy about this. So I looked up the laws that apply to the state I live in, and found out that this practice of expiring premium currency is not even legal. In the states where it is legal they have to be active for a minum of 2 years, so even in that case Anakama is breaking the laws of the states that is chooses to offer service in.

I've not made a purchase sinse this, and have sent many emails to Ankama not only trying to get either my money back, or my Orgines back. Niether of which happend.

What did happen after multple emails asking for a refund? My account has been banned. Do I care? Only enough to spread the word of yet another of Ankama's shady/unethical business practices.

Buyer Beware.

[Packmind]

Цитата допису ntall1:

Цитата допису Packmind:

It's really obvious people aren't reading back to the first page where someone from the official community team explained why they expire. First page, guys.

Why the expire is not relevant.... what is relevant is that it is not legal to have them expire in the US and much of EU, where they do business in.

I think their lawyers will handle the legal issues if it comes to it. As far as relevancy is concerned, the thread title actually addresses ethics, which do have any direct connection to law, and ethically, everything lines up... at least, in the context of Dofus, where a lack of expiry could hurt the game economy. In Wakfu, it doesn't make as much sense due to the lack of Kama-Ogrine exchanges, which is probably one reason for their consideration of a change.

From a player perspective, I don't really see where this is affecting me. I buy my Ogrines, I buy my digital goods, which generally don't expire unless it's some kind of time-limited booster, and boom, my Ogrines transform into a non-expiring digital product... which doesn't expire. Did I mention the items don't expire?

If you look at the purchasing options, you actually get FEWER Ogrines per dollar for buying a bulk package, so the ONLY perk you get from buying many at once is a longer-lasting currency. Nothing about the system is very encouraging toward people who want to stock up on Ogrines... in fact, it seems encouraging toward players who only want to pay just enough for items and services they deem to be a fair trade, when the players desire it, which seems to pretty clearly make the 'scheming business strategy' theory fall through.

But it's late, I'm tired, and at the end of this long-winded crap, not a lot of this is even going to matter if they change their policies, anyway.

[Varonth]

Цитата допису Packmind:

Цитата допису ntall1:

Why the expire is not relevant.... what is relevant is that it is not legal to have them expire in the US and much of EU, where they do business in.

I think their lawyers will handle the legal issues if it comes to it. As far as relevancy is concerned, the thread title actually addresses ethics, which do have any direct connection to law, and ethically, everything lines up... at least, in the context of Dofus, where a lack of expiry could hurt the game economy. In Wakfu, it doesn't make as much sense due to the lack of Kama-Ogrine exchanges, which is probably one reason for their consideration of a change.

From a player perspective, I don't really see where this is affecting me. I buy my Ogrines, I buy my digital goods, which generally don't expire unless it's some kind of time-limited booster, and boom, my Ogrines transform into a non-expiring digital product... which doesn't expire. Did I mention the items don't expire?

If you look at the purchasing options, you actually get FEWER Ogrines per dollar for buying a bulk package, so the ONLY perk you get from buying many at once is a longer-lasting currency. Nothing about the system is very encouraging toward people who want to stock up on Ogrines... in fact, it seems encouraging toward players who only want to pay just enough for items and services they deem to be a fair trade, when the players desire it, which seems to pretty clearly make the 'scheming business strategy' theory fall through.

But it's late, I'm tired, and at the end of this long-winded crap, not a lot of this is even going to matter if they change their policies, anyway. :ftired:

There is actually a quite simple solution. Everyone has 2 seperate ogrine values. Ogrines bought with real money will not expire. Ogrines bought with Kama in Dofus will expire after a certain period. Whenever you spent ogrines, you will first spent your expiring Ogrines.

Kinda like a modified Platinum system from Warframe. In Warframe Platinum that wasn't bought via real money cannot be traded. So promotional codes, or the 50 platinum every new account get aren't viable for trading. Everything else is. If you trade an item for platinum that platinum can be traded, as it was, at some point bought with real money.

[Packmind]

Цитата допису Varonth:

There is actually a quite simple solution. Everyone has 2 seperate ogrine values. Ogrines bought with real money will not expire. Ogrines bought with Kama in Dofus will expire after a certain period. Whenever you spent ogrines, you will first spent your expiring Ogrines.

Kinda like a modified Platinum system from Warframe. In Warframe Platinum that wasn't bought via real money cannot be traded. So promotional codes, or the 50 platinum every new account get aren't viable for trading. Everything else is. If you trade an item for platinum that platinum can be traded, as it was, at some point bought with real money.

That's a very interesting idea. There's only a couple of head-scratchers there...

You can't buy Ogrines with kamas at all in Wakfu, only in Dofus. So Ogrines never hit the free-to-play market in Wakfu.

And, I'm still trying to figure out where the expiry causes an issue. I don't really understand why someone would want to hang onto Ogrines for a long time.

[Noob-Noob]

Цитата допису Packmind:

Цитата допису Varonth:

There is actually a quite simple solution. Everyone has 2 seperate ogrine values. Ogrines bought with real money will not expire. Ogrines bought with Kama in Dofus will expire after a certain period. Whenever you spent ogrines, you will first spent your expiring Ogrines.

Kinda like a modified Platinum system from Warframe. In Warframe Platinum that wasn't bought via real money cannot be traded. So promotional codes, or the 50 platinum every new account get aren't viable for trading. Everything else is. If you trade an item for platinum that platinum can be traded, as it was, at some point bought with real money.

That's a very interesting idea. There's only a couple of head-scratchers there...

You can't buy Ogrines with kamas at all in Wakfu, only in Dofus. So Ogrines never hit the free-to-play market in Wakfu.

And, I'm still trying to figure out where the expiry causes an issue. I don't really understand why someone would want to hang onto Ogrines for a long time.

Hello guys, i want to play this game and i know almost nothing about it; i have no credit card, and from what i can understand the thing is if you dont have "Ogrines = Real Money" to open most of the premium features in this game is almost as you are playing a DEMO; i can understand that you have to pay for some cosmetic items, but i heard you have pay to gain access to every part of the map... and in-game currency cant be exchange for Ogrines? Anyone with a steam version can enlight me please.

[ntall1]

Цитата допису .DRONE.:

Цитата допису Packmind:

That's a very interesting idea. There's only a couple of head-scratchers there...

You can't buy Ogrines with kamas at all in Wakfu, only in Dofus. So Ogrines never hit the free-to-play market in Wakfu.

And, I'm still trying to figure out where the expiry causes an issue. I don't really understand why someone would want to hang onto Ogrines for a long time.

Hello guys, i want to play this game and i know almost nothing about it; i have no credit card, and from what i can understand the thing is if you dont have "Ogrines = Real Money" to open most of the premium features in this game is almost as you are playing a DEMO; i can understand that you have to pay for some cosmetic items, but i heard you have pay to gain access to every part of the map... and in-game currency cant be exchange for Ogrines? Anyone with a steam version can enlight me please.

This is a little off topic but I will answer your question.

The vast majority of the game can be played for free. The steam version is the same as the international version, and is played on the Nox server as far as I know. The only thing you have to pay for is if you want access to the most recent content update area's. These area's are very high lvl so you wont even be able to play them for a while. To access these area's you will need to purchase a "boost", aka subscription. Its costs aroub $6 a month, and gains you extra exp and higher drop rates.

[Luhv Masheen]

"if you offer a service to another country you must abide by that countries laws"
let me stop your right there, thats completely wrong for the internet.
Its in a terms of agreement, so even if it was technically "illegal" you still had to agree to it, meaning it is NOW legal either way.
The internet is a free market, risk/reward/only you situation.
Do not expect anything on the internet, or through the postal service to be regulated from other countries.
Do not complain that is not either, its a lot better this way even if you don't realize it now.
Even though i doubt its written in paper that out of country internet services need to abide by the laws of the country they sell to, i would love to see you try to call ANYBODY and have them do something to stop them.
This is how the internet works, if you ♥♥♥♥ up and buy something or don't read something its on you, don't take the pleasure of free trade from other people.
Unless they are importing/exporting illegal goods/stolen money/ or misc paraphanelia (no idea how to spell that) No one will ever care.
And aside from all that, it is completely legal to have an expiring internet currency, many games do it, so theres no point either way.

[ntall1]

Цитата допису Rioter Vito:

"if you offer a service to another country you must abide by that countries laws"
let me stop your right there, thats completely wrong for the internet.
Its in a terms of agreement, so even if it was technically "illegal" you still had to agree to it, meaning it is NOW legal either way.
The internet is a free market, risk/reward/only you situation.
Do not expect anything on the internet, or through the postal service to be regulated from other countries.
Do not complain that is not either, its a lot better this way even if you don't realize it now.
Even though i doubt its written in paper that out of country internet services need to abide by the laws of the country they sell to, i would love to see you try to call ANYBODY and have them do something to stop them.
This is how the internet works, if you ♥♥♥♥ up and buy something or don't read something its on you, don't take the pleasure of free trade from other people.
Unless they are importing/exporting illegal goods/stolen money/ or misc paraphanelia (no idea how to spell that) No one will ever care.
And aside from all that, it is completely legal to have an expiring internet currency, many games do it, so theres no point either way.

I am sorry, but it is you who are wrong. ToS/EULA agreements can not bypass law. This has been proven many times.

And no, it is not legal to have expiring premium currency. I explained the laws that dictate this on page 2 of this thread.

[Narcoat]

Do you have an example of a precedent where the gift card law applies to a virtual currency not purchased with a gift card?

[ntall1]

Цитата допису Narcoat:

Do you have an example of a precedent where the gift card law applies to a virtual currency not purchased with a gift card?

Although virtual currency may seem different from paper gift certificates and plastic gift cards, virtual currency sold on a prepaid basis for later use or redemption by a user may be subject to state and federal gift certificate laws, including gift card provisions of the Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act of 2009. Broadly speaking, state and federal gift certificate laws apply when “consideration” is paid for a “record” that reflects a promise to provide goods or services of a certain value to the bearer of the record. State and federal definitions vary, but can apply to virtual currency digital "records" and account balances.

These laws have been in place for almost 5 years now in the US.

Gift card laws are not the only laws that deal with virutal currencies. There are also state unclaimed property lawsas they apply to virtual currency breakage, should also be taken
into account. “Breakage” refers to revenue from virtual currency that was purchased but never redeemed for virtual goods or other products and services.

If virtual currency breakage is deemed to be "property" under state unclaimed property laws, the issuer could have an obligation to pay the value of unused or "unclaimed" virtual currency to one or more states after an applicable "dormancy period" (often 3-5 years). The state or states to which the issuer might have to remit the breakage is determined according to established jurisdictional rules that take into account the location of the owner of the property (i.e., the user) and the state of incorporation of the company holding the breakage.

There are other laws regarding the sale of virutal currency, but these two are the main ones Ankama needs to worry about.

Once again, no one is going to take Ankama to court over the loss of their ogrines. It would cost far more than the value of the Ogrines, so it will just never happen. That however, doesnt change the legality of it.

[Luhv Masheen]

Цитата допису ntall1:

Цитата допису Rioter Vito:

"if you offer a service to another country you must abide by that countries laws"
let me stop your right there, thats completely wrong for the internet.
Its in a terms of agreement, so even if it was technically "illegal" you still had to agree to it, meaning it is NOW legal either way.
The internet is a free market, risk/reward/only you situation.
Do not expect anything on the internet, or through the postal service to be regulated from other countries.
Do not complain that is not either, its a lot better this way even if you don't realize it now.
Even though i doubt its written in paper that out of country internet services need to abide by the laws of the country they sell to, i would love to see you try to call ANYBODY and have them do something to stop them.
This is how the internet works, if you ♥♥♥♥ up and buy something or don't read something its on you, don't take the pleasure of free trade from other people.
Unless they are importing/exporting illegal goods/stolen money/ or misc paraphanelia (no idea how to spell that) No one will ever care.
And aside from all that, it is completely legal to have an expiring internet currency, many games do it, so theres no point either way.

I am sorry, but it is you who are wrong. ToS/EULA agreements can not bypass law. This has been proven many times.

And no, it is not legal to have expiring premium currency. I explained the laws that dictate this on page 2 of this thread.

You're an idiot, those prepaid credit cards are technically virtual currency and they're money vanishes after a year or two. Of course i'm not saying what they're doing is right, but its definetly legal. you're wrong and you got, got by a company. it happens, no amount of upset words are going to change that.

[ntall1]

Цитата допису Rioter Vito:

Цитата допису ntall1:

I am sorry, but it is you who are wrong. ToS/EULA agreements can not bypass law. This has been proven many times.

And no, it is not legal to have expiring premium currency. I explained the laws that dictate this on page 2 of this thread.

You're an idiot, those prepaid credit cards are technically virtual currency and they're money vanishes after a year or two. Of course i'm not saying what they're doing is right, but its definetly legal. you're wrong and you got, got by a company. it happens, no amount of upset words are going to change that.

I'm not gonna argue with you on this one, but it is you who are wrong. If anyone wants to know the truth its a few simple google searches away, and a small amount of time that it takes to read.

[Narcoat]

Цитата допису ntall1:

Цитата допису Narcoat:

Do you have an example of a precedent where the gift card law applies to a virtual currency not purchased with a gift card?

Although virtual currency may seem different from paper gift certificates and plastic gift cards, virtual currency sold on a prepaid basis for later use or redemption by a user may be subject to state and federal gift certificate laws, including gift card provisions of the Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act of 2009. Broadly speaking, state and federal gift certificate laws apply when “consideration” is paid for a “record” that reflects a promise to provide goods or services of a certain value to the bearer of the record. State and federal definitions vary, but can apply to virtual currency digital "records" and account balances.

These laws have been in place for almost 5 years now in the US.

Gift card laws are not the only laws that deal with virutal currencies. There are also state unclaimed property lawsas they apply to virtual currency breakage, should also be taken
into account. “Breakage” refers to revenue from virtual currency that was purchased but never redeemed for virtual goods or other products and services.

If virtual currency breakage is deemed to be "property" under state unclaimed property laws, the issuer could have an obligation to pay the value of unused or "unclaimed" virtual currency to one or more states after an applicable "dormancy period" (often 3-5 years). The state or states to which the issuer might have to remit the breakage is determined according to established jurisdictional rules that take into account the location of the owner of the property (i.e., the user) and the state of incorporation of the company holding the breakage.

There are other laws regarding the sale of virutal currency, but these two are the main ones Ankama needs to worry about.

Once again, no one is going to take Ankama to court over the loss of their ogrines. It would cost far more than the value of the Ogrines, so it will just never happen. That however, doesnt change the legality of it.

This still seems to be strictly about the purchase of real, paper or plastic gift cards, as your first paragraph emphasizes. It covers the difference between the two.

Additionally, if you could distinguish between your own statements, and quotations you're making, it would be far easier for people to read what you post.

Lastly, I'm confused regarding your last point, you say that

...these two are the main ones Ankama needs to worry about.

but here you then say:

Once again, no one is going to take Ankama to court over the loss of their ogrines.

I'm not clear on which it is. It seems like half the time you're trying to tell us that they're going to get sued, and that huge legal troubles over this policy. But your first post, and the end of this one are saying that you just want to shed light on the ethics of it.

Furthermore, your 2nd paragraph, which seems more relevant, as it doesn't emphasize the focus on paper/plastic, states that:

The state or states to which the issuer might have to remit the breakage is determined according to established jurisdictional rules that take into account the location of the owner of the property (i.e., the user) and the state of incorporation of the company holding the breakage.

Doesn't that imply that it could very well be legal? assuming that french law accepts this, as I believe you agreed with. The state of incorporation of ankama would not be an american state, and not in some sketchy tax dodgey way. They are legitimarely a company that does not operate within the united states, and provides a warning of their policies, and the expiration of the currency for users. So if there was any kind of disagreement, I believe the fact that their practices have a decent reason for their existance as has been explained to you, and the fact that they were founded in france, not america, would be taken into account.


That doesn't mean I like it, or think that its a good idea, I'm just trying to understand what you mean.

[Luhv Masheen]

Цитата допису ntall1:

Цитата допису Rioter Vito:

You're an idiot, those prepaid credit cards are technically virtual currency and they're money vanishes after a year or two. Of course i'm not saying what they're doing is right, but its definetly legal. you're wrong and you got, got by a company. it happens, no amount of upset words are going to change that.

I'm not gonna argue with you on this one, but it is you who are wrong. If anyone wants to know the truth its a few simple google searches away, and a small amount of time that it takes to read.

Evidently im not that wrong or you'd have your currency right now.

[Jeais]

If it were legal, most if not all virtual currencies would expire, it's that simple. :) There's a reason Ankama is the only one that's still not with the program. There were more virtual currencies that expired in the past, but they changed their business practices because it's been found that the gift card laws, do, in fact apply. Don't you think Valve would love for your Steam wallet funds to disappear if you didn't use them? ;)

[Packmind]

Цитата допису Jeais:

If it were legal, most if not all virtual currencies would expire, it's that simple. :) There's a reason Ankama is the only one that's still not with the program. There were more virtual currencies that expired in the past, but they changed their business practices because it's been found that the gift card laws, do, in fact apply. Don't you think Valve would love for your Steam wallet funds to disappear if you didn't use them? ;)

...The games still wouldn't expire.