250 card decks

[Arma]

I know the subject has no doubt been talked about before but I'll be honest I'm too lazy to scroll back through to find a post.

Mathematically these decks just shouldn't work they should basically brick every single game just due to the amount of lands in the deck along with everything else.

Yet.. they never do they always seem to have exactly what they need when they need it be removal, land or just being able to play on curve.

Just wondering how it works is it some kind of exploit?

[Quazy]

its a exploit based on card weight and land ratio, its easy enough to get a single wincon card drawn out of a deck of duplicate fillers. its not just in bo1. and its definatly in ranked.

[ChaffyExpert]

Adding more cards means that the odds of getting bad hands is increased, even if you increase the amount of lands and cards with X function, there is still a higher probability of by random chance, getting bad hands compared to a 60 card deck.

However in B01 the hand smoother negates this risk, so there isn't really any drawback unless you need 1 specific card, for having 250 card decks.

[ChaffyExpert]

Publicado originalmente por Namdoolb:

Publicado originalmente por Arma:

I know the subject has no doubt been talked about before but I'll be honest I'm too lazy to scroll back through to find a post.

Mathematically these decks just shouldn't work they should basically brick every single game just due to the amount of lands in the deck along with everything else.

Yet.. they never do they always seem to have exactly what they need when they need it be removal, land or just being able to play on curve.

Just wondering how it works is it some kind of exploit?

statistically speaking as long as the deck builder has the correct land ratio (about 40%) they should "brick" no more or less often than any other deck.

Also (as long as the deck builder has done the mana curve properly) they should curve out just as well as a 60 card deck.

Same goes for most things.

The point where 250 card decks don't do quite as well is that their synergy is generally not as strong as 60 card decks: a 60 card deck is somewhere between 9-18 discrete non-land cards (probably about 10-11) which are chosen to work well together & play off each other.
For a 250 card deck that's probably about 40 (38-75) different cards that all have to play well together.
It'll still function as well as a 60 card deck in terms of letting you play the game, but you're not necessarily going to find you best interactions all the time.

You may technically be right, but there is a higher chance of "clumps" of lands, nonlands, or one card type. Even though it may technically be the same percentage.

[kingjames488]

I mean... if your deck is built around either drawing or milling cards you can have a much larger deck...

60 cards isn't a rule...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRSm-8tPFt4

[Quazy]

250 hares. problem solved

[kingjames488]

Publicado originalmente por Quazy:

250 hares. problem solved

and one raise the past.

[Inventies]

Publicado originalmente por BEEN:

Answer- the shuffler. It forces you to have two-three lands (most of the time) and as long as you have a decent curve, the shuffler works in your favor often than not.

lol I'm over here with 25/35 curve drawing 1 land three mulligans in a row x.x

[Malvastor]

Publicado originalmente por Quazy:

250 hares. problem solved

One Deadly Cover-Up... problem solved.

[Arma]

Will say that twice today I've gone vs 250 card decks and both times without needing to mulligan they have had leyline of the guildpact in their starting hand what is just fkin crazy to me.

Like even with 4 of them in the deck the chances for them to have it in the starting hand and on top of that having a perfectly playable hand with perfect curve is just... well I have to think the % chance of it happening it so low I have a higher chance of winning the lottery frankly :P

And yes I lost both the games vs those decks because they had exactly what they needed to win. The first having low cost removal on turn 1 and 2 and 3 before pumping out nothing but 4+ cost creatures every turn and the second player having blessing of the world tree and Felidar Retreat in their starting hand what then meant every creature they played got buffed and they also had a land in their hand every turn while of course my 60 card deck land flooded me

[KillerKommando]

Publicado originalmente por Arma:

That's really interesting thanks for answering.

I've discovered most of the 250 card decks I go vs are pretty much black with a splash of other colours not sure if that swings the win % around or not.

Sure thing!

I thought it might help you (or others) to gain insight if I post the deck I normally play with in Timeless, which is my primary mode to play. If I had to rate it 1-10 on fun alone, I'd rate this deck an 8/10 on the fun scale for me. There's room for improvement but it's in a good spot.

The theme of this deck is to gain life and have creatures on the field that get +1/+1 counters for gaining life. If you don't get those creatures, then it's to stay alive until the heavy hitters like Avacyn or Cerise can be played.

Deck
4 Impassioned Orator (ANB) 10
80 Plains (BLB) 370
4 Hallowed Priest (ANB) 9
1 Flowering of the White Tree (LTR) 15
2 Disenchant (BRO) 6
2 Cooped Up (WOE) 8
1 Eriette's Lullaby (OTJ) 10
1 Daxos, Blessed by the Sun (MUL) 67
2 Angel of Vitality (ANB) 1
2 Inspiring Overseer (SNC) 18
1 Invoke the Divine (KHM) 16
1 Heron of Hope (VOW) 18
1 Archangel Elspeth (MOM) 6
1 Elspeth Resplendent (SNC) 11
1 Cerise, Slayer of Fear (Y24) 1
2 Inspiring Commander (ANB) 11
1 Cleric Class (AFR) 6
1 Lunarch Veteran (MID) 27
1 Union of the Third Path (BRO) 31
2 Static Net (BRO) 27
2 Leonin Warleader (ANB) 13
1 Ajani's Welcome (M19) 6
1 Soulmender (ANB) 20
2 Celestial Unicorn (HBG) 86
1 Authority of the Consuls (KLR) 9
4 Soul Warden (M10) 34
1 Ashes of the Abhorrent (XLN) 2
1 Archivist of Oghma (HBG) 83
1 Voice of the Blessed (VOW) 44
1 Ajani, Strength of the Pride (M20) 2
1 Cradle of Vitality (JMP) 98
1 Sigarda's Splendor (MID) 33
2 Hour of Revelation (AKR) 23
4 Ajani's Pridemate (WAR) 4
1 Skrelv's Hive (ONE) 34
4 Dewdrop Cure (BLB) 10
4 Requisition Raid (OTJ) 26
2 Ossification (ONE) 26
1 The Restoration of Eiganjo (NEO) 34
1 Wedding Announcement (VOW) 45
2 Oketra's Monument (AKR) 277
1 Pristine Talisman (BRR) 43
1 Fountainport (BLB) 253
1 Faramir, Field Commander (LTR) 14
1 Esper Sentinel (MH2) 12
1 Dawn of Hope (WOT) 2
1 Halo Fountain (SNC) 15
2 Rumor Gatherer (SNC) 29
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope (SIS) 2
1 Pearl Medallion (MH3) 294
1 Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines (ONE) 10
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (MUL) 68
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx (THS) 223
2 Sunfall (MOM) 40
1 Staff of Compleation (ONE) 242
1 Valkyrie Harbinger (KHM) 374
1 Linden, the Steadfast Queen (ELD) 20
1 Adeline, Resplendent Cathar (MID) 1
4 Twinblade Paladin (M20) 285
4 Tragic Poet (DAR) 37
4 Gideon's Company (WAR) 268
4 Chaplain of Alms (MID) 13
2 Baird, Steward of Argive (DAR) 4
1 Land Tax (WOT) 9
1 Abiding Grace (MH2) 1
2 Abzan Battle Priest (J21) 1
1 Abzan Falconer (KTK) 2
1 Nyx Lotus (THB) 235
4 Patriar's Humiliation (HBG) 25
1 Mondrak, Glory Dominus (ONE) 23
1 Anointed Procession (AKR) 2
2 Idyllic Tutor (THB) 24
1 Ghostly Prison (SPG) 19
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence (JMP) 119
1 Archon of Emeria (ZNR) 4
1 Blind Obedience (WOT) 1
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar (SIR) 49
1 Path to Exile (OTP) 6
2 Demystify (XLN) 8
2 Trusty Packbeast (M19) 41
2 Leonin Vanguard (M19) 22
2 Banishing Slash (NEO) 3
2 You Cannot Pass! (LTR) 38
1 Righteous Valkyrie (KHM) 24
1 Leyline of Hope (DSK) 18
1 Repel the Vile (NEO) 33
2 Emerge from the Cocoon (DSK) 5
1 March of Otherworldly Light (NEO) 28

[KillerKommando]

Oh, and special shoutout to Patriar's Humiliation. That card is the bee's knees and has saved my bacon on so many occasions.

[kingjames488]

I mean... if you just have a larger deck than your opponent and it's all removal you're probably statistically likely to win a lot... if simply by running out your opponents deck.

removal is just too strong...

I got super annoyed at it the other day and just made a deck where the point is to stall and wipe their board repeatedly until I draw raise the dark realm and revive everything for myself... it's surprisingly good XD

[Jessica Sherawat]

These decks do not play the same in real life. They get card or land flooded a lot. If you play a decent amount of games against them in real life you notice that. It is statistically impossible for them to be as good as they are in arena. That can only mean two things, the opening hand is rigged and the shuffler is rigged. To favor players who spent money, decks over 60 cards and decks with a lot of rares/mythic/over powered commons/uncommons.

[anaris]

Publicado originalmente por BEEN:

Answer- the shuffler. It forces you to have two-three lands (most of the time) and as long as you have a decent curve, the shuffler works in your favor often than not.

no, it only chooses the ratio that is closest to your deck's ratio. if you run 1 land for every six cards, you're getting one land hands bb

[anaris]

Publicado originalmente por kingjames488:

I mean... if you just have a larger deck than your opponent and it's all removal you're probably statistically likely to win a lot... if simply by running out your opponents deck.

removal is just too strong...

I got super annoyed at it the other day and just made a deck where the point is to stall and wipe their board repeatedly until I draw raise the dark realm and revive everything for myself... it's surprisingly good XD

Virtue of Persistence is a good backup to Raise