When is Sheoldred, The Apocalypse gonna get cut?

[CourtJesterCowboy]

No really, I am just tired of seeing it. Its a $90 card in paper, and nobody ever pulls it in drafts, but every two Billy RealGoods on Arena has them in their deck. Its almost funny at this point how garbage the Meta is right now. Not a very fun time to be playing Arena outside of some drafts/Midweeks. I SUMMON SHEOLDRED! I SUMMON KILL ALL YO CARDS! I SUMMON SHEOLDRED AGAIN!

[DontMisunderstand]

Origineel geplaatst door CourtJesterCowboy:

Whats crazy is thinking everyone is getting on Arena to grind ranked all day.. Thats the crappiest part of the game lol

Yeah that would be crazy if literally anybody were talking about that.

Gold, Platinum, Diamond, not a The One Ring in sight. And extremely few Sheoldred as well. Those are the mid and high tier ranks. And the only one of those that requires any grinding is Diamond, though if you get lucky with matchmaking just dailies gets there too.

[CourtJesterCowboy]

Origineel geplaatst door DontMisunderstand:

Origineel geplaatst door CourtJesterCowboy:

Whats crazy is thinking everyone is getting on Arena to grind ranked all day.. Thats the crappiest part of the game lol

Yeah that would be crazy if literally anybody were talking about that.

Gold, Platinum, Diamond, not a The One Ring in sight. And extremely few Sheoldred as well. Those are the mid and high tier ranks. And the only one of those that requires any grinding is Diamond, though if you get lucky with matchmaking just dailies gets there too.

Honestly dude, what are you even talking about. The pro MTG players on Magics official site have all submitted championship decklists and Sheoldred is all over over those decks and Id bet all my cash you are not a championship paper player lol. And why are you bringing up One Ring? It got a mana cost nerf. Its like you are trying to tie all of Magic to Historic or something.

[DontMisunderstand]

Origineel geplaatst door CourtJesterCowboy:

Honestly dude, what are you even talking about. The pro MTG players on Magics official site have all submitted championship decklists and Sheoldred is all over over those decks and Id bet all my cash you are not a championship paper player lol. And why are you bringing up One Ring? It got a mana cost nerf. Its like you are trying to tie all of Magic to Historic or something.

Why am I directly responding to the literal words someone else said? Good question. The better question is why you're trying to claim a direct response to someone else counts as me bringing something up.

[GarbageCollector]

I don't play enough of larger formats to have an opinion on them, but Sheoldred, The Apocalypse, is not a bad card in standard. That's silly.

https://magic.gg/decklists/magic-world-championship-xxix-standard-decklists-a-l

More decks that are playing black are running it vs not running it. I don't care enough to count them up, but it looks like maybe more decks in general, regardless of colors, are running it vs not running it.

If someone has 17lands premium and can see standard results from MTGA, I'm extremely confident you will see that it is both a popular and effective card in the ladder as well. Not that I would really consider that above all the pro players' consensus even if it were to contradict them. Arena ranks are not real.

Origineel geplaatst door Trevor Lahey:

Elesh mother of machines is better, Phyrexian obliterator etc.

No, they are not.

Origineel geplaatst door Trevor Lahey:

People just play Sheoldred because they like the lazy, let the cards play themselves strategy. You should always have removal in your deck even if it bloats it.

Yep, absolutely. And that's the problem. It's not a good card because it fills what would otherwise be an essential void in a larger strategy. In many decks it is played in it doesn't even compliment the larger strategy. It's a good card because it's just an enormously strong blocker, attacker, passive damage dealer, passive damage healer that requires nothing else in particular to trigger it, all for a cheap price. That's why it's obnoxious. You don't need a reason to include Sheoldred in a deck that plays black. You need a reason not to run it and that's why it's all over the place.

As this trend continues, more sets are added without others being rotated out, and we see the proliferation in standard of individual cards that don't need synergy or investments to make a massive impact, you'll see more and more viable decks with the overall strategy that can boil down to "play a pile of good cards".

[Minmataro]

In arena is free to craft good cards. so why wouldnt you have shelly in a black deck? Because she's strong? thats no reason not to use her, what is this charity. I dont know u, my job isnt for you to have fun every game.

[DontMisunderstand]

Origineel geplaatst door Minmataro:

In arena is free to craft good cards. so why wouldnt you have shelly in a black deck? Because she's strong? thats no reason not to use her, what is this charity. I dont know u, my job isnt for you to have fun every game.

I think this is a pretty significant difference in philosophy. I'm here to play a game, it literally IS my responsibility to make sure my opponent is also having fun playing the game with me.

[Winter Wolf]

Origineel geplaatst door DontMisunderstand:

Origineel geplaatst door Minmataro:

In arena is free to craft good cards. so why wouldnt you have shelly in a black deck? Because she's strong? thats no reason not to use her, what is this charity. I dont know u, my job isnt for you to have fun every game.

I think this is a pretty significant difference in philosophy. I'm here to play a game, it literally IS my responsibility to make sure my opponent is also having fun playing the game with me.

Difference indeed. The video gamer thinks of only their own satisfaction.

[Ezra]

Origineel geplaatst door Trevor Lahey:

Idk why people see Sheoldred the apocalypse as such a threat, the two sided Sheoldred is way more efficient and brutal. You can exile it, force it to take damage from a creature with death touch, kill it with black spells, copy it or take control of it with blue spells. etc. You can remove all the enchantments and stuff that ramps it up (even the one ring can be exiled). Sheoldred single side is what I throw down to fluster people and get some life for nothing.

Elesh mother of machines is better, Phyrexian obliterator etc. People just play Sheoldred because they like the lazy, let the cards play themselves strategy. You should always have removal in your deck even if it bloats it.

How is the Quadruple Black Phyrexian Obliterator better the Sheoldred?
They are Same converted CMC but Sheoldred only requires double black.
Its therefore able to be run in decks outside of Mono-Black devotion.
Sheoldred the apocalypse in addition to being able to interact with the board state provides additional advantage on any CA generated or Taxes the opponent for theirs.

The best thing Phyrexian Obliterator is going to do is be a Lightning rod for their removal spell. Or blocking Tarmogoyf dying and having the opponent sacrifice around 5 things.

With Sheoldred The Apocalypse, I can do stupid things like Target my opponent when they are tapped out with Ancrestral Recall. Have them draw 3 lose 6, Then cast Timetwister have them shuffle in draw 7 lose 14 life and subsequently the game.

That's just her in a control deck.
She goes into other stuff to like Dimir Tempo, Jund Aggro / Midrange, Rakdos Midrange...

Pretty much any black deck that cares about generating or taxing card advantage
So the only time she probably won't be showing up is in Lurrus matches and when people are not playing Black. "The Best Color in Magic"

[DontMisunderstand]

Origineel geplaatst door Fu11M3t41J4ck3t:

Pretty much any black deck that cares about generating or taxing card advantage
So the only time she probably won't be showing up is in Lurrus matches and when people are not playing Black. "The Best Color in Magic"

Pretty sure black is the worst color in Magic. Blue, red, green, white, black, in that order.

[Ezra]

Origineel geplaatst door DontMisunderstand:

Origineel geplaatst door Fu11M3t41J4ck3t:

Pretty much any black deck that cares about generating or taxing card advantage
So the only time she probably won't be showing up is in Lurrus matches and when people are not playing Black. "The Best Color in Magic"

Pretty sure black is the worst color in Magic. Blue, red, green, white, black, in that order.

Black pulls power from every other color. No other color can do everything, Black can counter spells, Take extra turns, targeted removal, mass removal, draw cards, exile cards,
Discards cards, Low CMC high impact utility creatures Mid-High CMC Finishers with multiple keywords and relevant abilities. The ability to Tutor more then any other color. Blue may be more effective at drawing cards more often green may play larger beasts white might play more removal red might play more direct damage. But no other Color can do all of them at the same time like Black can. Mono-Eldrazi is the closest comparable thing in Eternal and Commander style formats but Colorless remains the absence of color where as if you were to actually mix up and paint with black you would need to mix the other primary colors together which is why it gets to do all the things.

[Corey Trevor]

Origineel geplaatst door Fu11M3t41J4ck3t:

Origineel geplaatst door Trevor Lahey:

Idk why people see Sheoldred the apocalypse as such a threat, the two sided Sheoldred is way more efficient and brutal. You can exile it, force it to take damage from a creature with death touch, kill it with black spells, copy it or take control of it with blue spells. etc. You can remove all the enchantments and stuff that ramps it up (even the one ring can be exiled). Sheoldred single side is what I throw down to fluster people and get some life for nothing.

Elesh mother of machines is better, Phyrexian obliterator etc. People just play Sheoldred because they like the lazy, let the cards play themselves strategy. You should always have removal in your deck even if it bloats it.

How is the Quadruple Black Phyrexian Obliterator better the Sheoldred?
They are Same converted CMC but Sheoldred only requires double black.
Its therefore able to be run in decks outside of Mono-Black devotion.
Sheoldred the apocalypse in addition to being able to interact with the board state provides additional advantage on any CA generated or Taxes the opponent for theirs.

The best thing Phyrexian Obliterator is going to do is be a Lightning rod for their removal spell. Or blocking Tarmogoyf dying and having the opponent sacrifice around 5 things.

With Sheoldred The Apocalypse, I can do stupid things like Target my opponent when they are tapped out with Ancrestral Recall. Have them draw 3 lose 6, Then cast Timetwister have them shuffle in draw 7 lose 14 life and subsequently the game.

That's just her in a control deck.
She goes into other stuff to like Dimir Tempo, Jund Aggro / Midrange, Rakdos Midrange...

Pretty much any black deck that cares about generating or taxing card advantage
So the only time she probably won't be showing up is in Lurrus matches and when people are not playing Black. "The Best Color in Magic"

You can mana ramp, slap mithrial on it, buff it and force creatures to block it, your opponent has to sacrifice everything including lands, hexproof creatures, enchantments etc. Way better in my opinion.

[Ezra]

Origineel geplaatst door Trevor Lahey:

Origineel geplaatst door Fu11M3t41J4ck3t:

How is the Quadruple Black Phyrexian Obliterator better the Sheoldred?
They are Same converted CMC but Sheoldred only requires double black.
Its therefore able to be run in decks outside of Mono-Black devotion.
Sheoldred the apocalypse in addition to being able to interact with the board state provides additional advantage on any CA generated or Taxes the opponent for theirs.

The best thing Phyrexian Obliterator is going to do is be a Lightning rod for their removal spell. Or blocking Tarmogoyf dying and having the opponent sacrifice around 5 things.

With Sheoldred The Apocalypse, I can do stupid things like Target my opponent when they are tapped out with Ancrestral Recall. Have them draw 3 lose 6, Then cast Timetwister have them shuffle in draw 7 lose 14 life and subsequently the game.

That's just her in a control deck.
She goes into other stuff to like Dimir Tempo, Jund Aggro / Midrange, Rakdos Midrange...

Pretty much any black deck that cares about generating or taxing card advantage
So the only time she probably won't be showing up is in Lurrus matches and when people are not playing Black. "The Best Color in Magic"

You can mana ramp, slap mithrial on it, buff it and force creatures to block it, your opponent has to sacrifice everything including lands, hexproof creatures, enchantments etc. Way better in my opinion.

It's not only more color intensive it only interacts with the board state
Where as Sheoldred The Apocalypse is far easier to ramp into is a big enough
threat on board and interacts with both players hands. It's not even a contest.
Your opponent has two options with phyrexian obliterator either exile it
or race it. Sheoldred of the Apocalypse has to be answered with removal, Counter Magic
or comboing out before passing the turn again.
I am just going to Stifle the Obliterator and Block it with goyf. Make you sac it. Or use mass removal. The difference is that Obliterator is a huge investment at B-B-B-B versus X-X-B-B.

Even in Mono Black on 4 Mana I rather cast Double Bitter Blossom
or MP1 a Bowmaster and Tutor. Or Liliana of the Veil and a Thoughtseize / Inquisition. Or Double Chainer's Edict or some other combination of removal and hand disruption.
Spectacle activation Spawn of Mayhem into Dark Ritual into Liliana of The Veil is also 4 Black Mana. Or Double Deathrite Shaman Thoughtseize Dark Ritual Liliana of the Veil. Why am I going to tap out 4 resources sorcery speed a creature pass the turn and hope that it somehow sticks around. I'd rather not bet on the ignorance of my opponents on triggered abilities that may or may not resolve. And just play better cards that are more versatile in a wider array of situations.

[Namdoolb]

Personally I think sheoldred will get cut in October.

That's when we'll get the format rotation for standard, & they'll likely shake the format up then by banning some of the more dominant cards.

If you're looking at another format like explorer or historic, or brawl.... then buckle up: I don't think sheoldred is going anywhere. (Tbf she shouldn't be a problem in those larger formats anyway; plenty of ways to deal with her.)

[Corey Trevor]

Origineel geplaatst door Fu11M3t41J4ck3t:

Origineel geplaatst door Trevor Lahey:

You can mana ramp, slap mithrial on it, buff it and force creatures to block it, your opponent has to sacrifice everything including lands, hexproof creatures, enchantments etc. Way better in my opinion.

It's not only more color intensive it only interacts with the board state
Where as Sheoldred The Apocalypse is far easier to ramp into is a big enough
threat on board and interacts with both players hands. It's not even a contest.
Your opponent has two options with phyrexian obliterator either exile it
or race it. Sheoldred of the Apocalypse has to be answered with removal, Counter Magic
or comboing out before passing the turn again.
I am just going to Stifle the Obliterator and Block it with goyf. Make you sac it. Or use mass removal. The difference is that Obliterator is a huge investment at B-B-B-B versus X-X-B-B.

Even in Mono Black on 4 Mana I rather cast Double Bitter Blossom
or MP1 a Bowmaster and Tutor. Or Liliana of the Veil and a Thoughtseize / Inquisition. Or Double Chainer's Edict or some other combination of removal and hand disruption.
Spectacle activation Spawn of Mayhem into Dark Ritual into Liliana of The Veil is also 4 Black Mana. Or Double Deathrite Shaman Thoughtseize Dark Ritual Liliana of the Veil. Why am I going to tap out 4 resources sorcery speed a creature pass the turn and hope that it somehow sticks around. I'd rather not bet on the ignorance of my opponents on triggered abilities that may or may not resolve. And just play better cards that are more versatile in a wider array of situations.

You can remove anything as with obliterator thats why all this is just opinion. There are many combos for many different things; sheoldred the apocalypse is overrated. That's my opinion.

If you are playing black green its not a huge investment, if you don't have control of the board everything is a threat. It takes equal investment to make Sheol be anything more of a novelty couple turn life gain against a good deck imo. You can play white/anything, gain massive life per turn and control the board 90% and keep black players from doing anything useful.

[Corey Trevor]

Origineel geplaatst door Namdoolb:

Personally I think sheoldred will get cut in October.

That's when we'll get the format rotation for standard, & they'll likely shake the format up then by banning some of the more dominant cards.

If you're looking at another format like explorer or historic, or brawl.... then buckle up: I don't think sheoldred is going anywhere. (Tbf she shouldn't be a problem in those larger formats anyway; plenty of ways to deal with her.)

Yea, even alchemy dilutes sheol, larger formats make it a toothless poodle.