(Bug?) Graaz, Unstoppable Juggernaut is truly Unstoppable

[Ripshot Blue]

was playing brawl like I always do, found someone using Graaz. its not a commander I see often so I figured it would be cool to see. I Drew Eaten by Piranhas after he played Graaz so his creatures already turned into Juggernauts due to his ability, Thats fine & expected. I played my Enchantments, 2 of which was Eaten by Piranhas & Fable of the Mirror-Breaker. Eaten by Piranhas was played as the First Enchantment which removes all abilities of enchanted creature & turns it into a 1/1 black skeleton. Mirror-Breaker was after which created a Red 2/2 Token which was done on my turn. On their turn they got control of the Red 2/2 Token using Eriette's Tempting Apple (which was a slick play ngl) but when they did, Graaz still turned it into a 5/3 Juggernaut despite his abilities being removed my turn previously & before the 2/2 was even on the field with none of their creatures being forced to attack to further prove its ability's are removed.

Is there some ruling im missing or is this a genuine bug.

Screenshot for Context;
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3402493587
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3402497404

[Winter Wolf]

That certainly seems like a bug. The enchantment should be persistent unless something turns IT's abilities off. I don't see anything like that happening in the screenshots. Perhaps you might want to report it?

[Ripshot Blue]

Originally posted by Winter Wolf:

That certainly seems like a bug. The enchantment should be persistent unless something turns IT's abilities off. I don't see anything like that happening in the screenshots. Perhaps you might want to report it?

Only apple was played on his side that turn so I didnt bother taking a screenshot of his graveyard so nothing could of removed it, the apple finished me off as it poked me for the last 3 he needed when he sacrificed it lmao

If its for sure a bug ill report it but I wanted to ask here & get abit of feedback first just incase there was some ruling. My last ticket with wizards was iffy at best so I tend to avoid doing so unless I have to.

[Winter Wolf]

You certainly are not obligated to report anything. It is on them to find and fix bugs as they crop up. Though that one seems like it might make your deck a bit worse if it is a bug that recurs. I'd report it in hopes that maybe someday they might fix it. But if you have had issues with how they do cs these days I don't blame you for skipping it.

[Ripshot Blue]

Originally posted by Winter Wolf:

You certainly are not obligated to report anything. It is on them to find and fix bugs as they crop up. Though that one seems like it might make your deck a bit worse if it is a bug that recurs. I'd report it in hopes that maybe someday they might fix it. But if you have had issues with how they do cs these days I don't blame you for skipping it.

yeah thats fair. It wasnt bad as in they were rude or anything, my last ticket I reported was a good 2 months of back n forth till it was resolved so I fear the same lmao

I did save the log just incase, if this guy is used more often, my deck is gonna struggle as enchantment disables is a huge way my tom stalls long enough for his setup

[Tom the Mime Artist]

This isn't a bug, it's just a bit of an edge case you encounter with layers sometimes, when one permanent changes properties of other cards on multiple layers. This ruling on Gatherer explains it.

Originally posted by Gatherer:

If Graaz loses its abilities for some reason, then juggernauts you control will not have to attack each turn and will be able to be blocked by walls. However, due to how continuous effects are applied by layers, other creatures you control will be 5/3 Juggernauts in addition to their other types. Unstoppable, indeed!

https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr613/ gives a detailed rundown of layers. Importantly:

Originally posted by 613.6:

If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.

Graaz starts on layer 4, with the type changing effect, loses its abilities in layer 6 but because it's ability is already partially applied, it continues to apply in layer 7 with power and toughness changing effects.

Whenever you have a transformation effect that transforms something that has a transformation effect, how layers are applied can make things go a little funky (same sort of thing happens with Ayula). May seem a bit counter intuitive but the rules with layers generally prevent situations which would be more confusing and less consistent. This is a bit messy but the fringe cases you could encounter if layers don't apply would be worse.

Edit: Kudo, not Ayula. Mixed up the bear royalty.

[Ripshot Blue]

Originally posted by Tom the Mime Artist:

This isn't a bug, it's just a bit of an edge case you encounter with layers sometimes, when one permanent changes properties of other cards on multiple layers. This ruling on Gatherer explains it.

Originally posted by Gatherer:

If Graaz loses its abilities for some reason, then juggernauts you control will not have to attack each turn and will be able to be blocked by walls. However, due to how continuous effects are applied by layers, other creatures you control will be 5/3 Juggernauts in addition to their other types. Unstoppable, indeed!

https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr613/ gives a detailed rundown of layers. Importantly:

Originally posted by 613.6:

If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.

Graaz starts on layer 4, with the type changing effect, loses its abilities in layer 6 but because it's ability is already partially applied, it continues to apply in layer 7 with power and toughness changing effects.

Whenever you have a transformation effect that transforms something that has a transformation effect, how layers are applied can make things go a little funky (same sort of thing happens with Ayula). May seem a bit counter intuitive but the rules with layers generally prevent situations which would be more confusing and less consistent. This is a bit messy but the fringe cases you could encounter if layers don't apply would be worse.

Edit: Kudo, not Ayula. Mixed up the bear royalty.

the issue here is the effect got applied to a creature after its initial effect took place, the red 2/2 was not on the field at anytime while Graaz had its ability, only played after it was disabled meaning the effect still applied to a new creature despite the effect being nullified which should counter the continuous part of its effect to new creatures. I get that onions got layers & the onion kept their creatures as juggernauts but why did my 2/2 token become one when it shouldn't even be reapplying the effect anymore.

[Tom the Mime Artist]

Originally posted by Ripshot Blue:

the issue here is the effect got applied to a creature after its initial effect took place, the red 2/2 was not on the field at anytime while Graaz had its ability, only played after it was disabled meaning the effect still applied to a new creature despite the effect being nullified which should counter the continuous part of its effect to new creatures. I get that onions got layers & the onion kept their creatures as juggernauts but why did my 2/2 token become one when it shouldn't even be reapplying the effect anymore.

That's not how continuous effects work. They continually update and that means if something just played comes in at an earlier layer, that still gets applied first. If it didn't continually update then you'd get cases that are far more unintuitive like a creature land you just animated not being effected by an anthem effect you have on board and that's one of the tamer examples. It also has the benefit of the board state depending as little as possible on timestamps, which is especially useful for cases involving layers where there might be a judge call - they can just look at the board state and not have to dig down into what was played when.

[Traumaturgy]

This is some higher level of convoluted rules, but it is apparently how it works. Check this out:
www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/11ak1cf/can_somebody_explain_me_this_rule_about_graaz/

First few posts explain in quite well I think. If last segment of Graaz was 2 separate abilities, there would be no 5/3, but because its like 1 effect consisting of 2 abilities in different layers, and rule 613.6:- it is what it is.

[Ripshot Blue]

Alright I think I got it now, thanks for the info guys, this is why I wanted to ask here instead of just making a ticket right away, some of you guys are next level when it comes to knowing the rulings

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

now imagine them intentionally designing cards to make how layers work not work. MH4 :)

[Argstein]

“You’re born you take s***
get out in the world you take more s***
climb a little higher take less s***
till one day you're in the rarefied atmosphere and you’ve forgotten what s*** even looks like
Welcome to the layer cake son”