Armies of creatures are overrated and annoying

[Jarko]

There needs to be a serious conversation about how many creatures you’re allowed to have in the battle field. It’s flat out ridiculous. And I think there either needs to be a normalization of board wipes or punishment for having too many creatures.

[anaris]

RDW runs as many goblins as you have *slots for spells in your deck*

[ChaffyExpert]

İlk olarak anaris tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

Which i don't do, but board wipes are OP.

all they do is return you to neutral lol

They clear the board, so 4 card to 1 card trade off, or even 2 card to 1,

right but 4 mana boardwipes are 4 mana and 1 mana goblins are 1 mana and swung 4 times already.

they will still end up winning with no counter.

no, playing boardwipes nonstop is a nonstrategy, it doesn't do anything.

That's just not true, playing board wipes removes your opponent's board and resources, and usually you can play enchants or artifacts or lands that turn into creatures, to do 1 damage.

So basically the other person can't play anything, because it gets board wiped, while the board wiped does like 1 damage untill they win and there isn't really anything you can do about it unless they run out of board wipes and you are able to consistently get back your hand so their board wipe strategy of reducing your resources fails.

"4 mana board wipes are 4 mana, and 1 mana goblins are 1 mana and swung 4 times already"

Ok so if you have haste, you can do 4 damage. They can still play removal, or another board wipe, untill you have no cards.

Then they have one creature do damage to you while you have nothing and win by doing 1 damage over the course of 20 turns while removing the board- assuming they are lucky enough and know what they are doing enough.

[ChaffyExpert]

İlk olarak anaris tarafından gönderildi:

RDW runs as many goblins as you have *slots for spells in your deck*

True, and they are pretty weak, and they don't seem to have much recourse if their stuff gets removed or they can't attack without losing their stuff.

I've beaten them tons with my elf deck, their speed isn't as fast as gruul aggro or aggro red, so i imagine they would just get board wiped, then have nothing they can do while the board wiper gives themselves life and attacks with a creature-land for 1 damage every turn.

[anaris]

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

No they aren't tho,

https://mtga.untapped.gg/limited/aetherdrift/set-guide?eventType=PREMIER_DRAFT
https://mtga.untapped.gg/meta?archetypeIds=215_366_510_561_607_1165_4027_4323&eventType=PREMIER_DRAFT

unless you count Hare apparant and Banner of Kinship,

of course we count hare lol

but that's not really white willie because there is no synergy,

synergy like the boros aura deck that's popular rn?

also, this is the other rabbits deck
https://mtga.untapped.gg/meta/archetypes/4027/selesnya-rabbits?archetypeIds=215_366_510_561_607_1165_4027_4323&eventType=PREMIER_DRAFT&tab=decks

it's just using one broken card, then one other type of broken card.

1: there are 52 other cards in the deck
2: this is just a description of every good deck

White willie is suppose to have a bunch of weak creatures, that buff each other up.

...for example, by counting other creatures on the field and generating tokens based on the number of them?????

also just so we're clear: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/White_Weenie

the deck is not about necessarily buffing each other up and it's not called "white willy" because willy means penis in britain.

Green Elves is more of a white willie, but doesn't have as much token options.

sure if nothing means anything i guess

Green Elves are pretty strong due to being fast, giving you mana and card draw, but it's still tied to your creatures so removal like black, or board wipes, can put you in the disadvantage.

yes that's how counterplay works.

My green elf deck runs Gaia's blessing (i think that's what it's called) that lets me draw a card every time an elf with 3 power enters, and another enchant that lets me draw whenever a power 4 creature enters.

that's gaea's cradle i think

Problem is, adding this card draw to hopefully brute force past removal makes it slower against Gruul Red,

fast aggro loses to faster aggro, get used to it.

Still need the elves to buff up to get the cards, which the ones that buff each other up can be removed,

yes, this is literally the only and ordinary counterplay, it's not a cheat.

yesand board wipes can remove my board constantly until i have no cards left

my brother in christ you are playing green elves! You have 35 creature cards, this simply isn't possible to boardwipe without giving up LITERALLY everything else that your deck could possibly do

and win anyways because it takes at least 2 turns to both rebuild and then attack after a board wipe.

if only there were elves with haste or etb effects...

So it seems like creature decks are just not viable,

this is a very silly thing to think

and are too weak, too slow, compared to decks that just use one or two op creatures that instantly win the game or win the game quickly.

hmmm.... how might one counter those decks..... like hare apparent as you say...... hmmmmmm. what kind of spell could kill 30 tokens...............

Decks based on synergy are pretty much dead.

1: playing op creatures that power each other up is a deck based on synergy
2: the duskmourn era championships were won exclusively by creature combos using creature types that weren't in bloomburrow

That's why 250 card jank decks with just overpowered ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ using all colors can still win at all.

they can't (even 60 card jank is bad), but thinking they can tells me pretty accurately what your problem is. You are playing ELVES buddy you should have won by the time they draw their 12th card

"if someone board wipes on their turn they are going to lose"
How you just lose your board, it will take another turn to rebuild, and then a turn after that to swing- which gives them time for *another* board wipe.

yes? And then?

when they boardwipe like that, and have tapped out both times, what do you think converts that into a win?

[ChaffyExpert]

İlk olarak anaris tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

No they aren't tho,

https://mtga.untapped.gg/limited/aetherdrift/set-guide?eventType=PREMIER_DRAFT
https://mtga.untapped.gg/meta?archetypeIds=215_366_510_561_607_1165_4027_4323&eventType=PREMIER_DRAFT

unless you count Hare apparant and Banner of Kinship,

of course we count hare lol

but that's not really white willie because there is no synergy,

synergy like the boros aura deck that's popular rn?

also, this is the other rabbits deck
https://mtga.untapped.gg/meta/archetypes/4027/selesnya-rabbits?archetypeIds=215_366_510_561_607_1165_4027_4323&eventType=PREMIER_DRAFT&tab=decks

it's just using one broken card, then one other type of broken card.

1: there are 52 other cards in the deck
2: this is just a description of every good deck

White willie is suppose to have a bunch of weak creatures, that buff each other up.

...for example, by counting other creatures on the field and generating tokens based on the number of them?????

also just so we're clear: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/White_Weenie

the deck is not about necessarily buffing each other up and it's not called "white willy" because willy means penis in britain.

Green Elves is more of a white willie, but doesn't have as much token options.

sure if nothing means anything i guess

Green Elves are pretty strong due to being fast, giving you mana and card draw, but it's still tied to your creatures so removal like black, or board wipes, can put you in the disadvantage.

yes that's how counterplay works.

My green elf deck runs Gaia's blessing (i think that's what it's called) that lets me draw a card every time an elf with 3 power enters, and another enchant that lets me draw whenever a power 4 creature enters.

that's gaea's cradle i think

Problem is, adding this card draw to hopefully brute force past removal makes it slower against Gruul Red,

fast aggro loses to faster aggro, get used to it.

Still need the elves to buff up to get the cards, which the ones that buff each other up can be removed,

yes, this is literally the only and ordinary counterplay, it's not a cheat.

yesand board wipes can remove my board constantly until i have no cards left

my brother in christ you are playing green elves! You have 35 creature cards, this simply isn't possible to boardwipe without giving up LITERALLY everything else that your deck could possibly do

and win anyways because it takes at least 2 turns to both rebuild and then attack after a board wipe.

if only there were elves with haste or etb effects...

So it seems like creature decks are just not viable,

this is a very silly thing to think

and are too weak, too slow, compared to decks that just use one or two op creatures that instantly win the game or win the game quickly.

hmmm.... how might one counter those decks..... like hare apparent as you say...... hmmmmmm. what kind of spell could kill 30 tokens...............

Decks based on synergy are pretty much dead.

1: playing op creatures that power each other up is a deck based on synergy
2: the duskmourn era championships were won exclusively by creature combos using creature types that weren't in bloomburrow

That's why 250 card jank decks with just overpowered ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ using all colors can still win at all.

they can't (even 60 card jank is bad), but thinking they can tells me pretty accurately what your problem is. You are playing ELVES buddy you should have won by the time they draw their 12th card

"if someone board wipes on their turn they are going to lose"
How you just lose your board, it will take another turn to rebuild, and then a turn after that to swing- which gives them time for *another* board wipe.

yes? And then?

when they boardwipe like that, and have tapped out both times, what do you think converts that into a win?

Hare isn't really a white weenie deck though, it just makes tokens, then use one artifact to instantly buff them up and win. It's more akin to a combo deck. The creatures inherently don't buff each other up, just create more tokens.

So i digress i personally don't think it's white willie.


I didn't say i can't with Elves, you're right, with Elves they are fast enough to win way before they can get the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ out.

However with other decks- such as my Frog deck, they can topdeck a board wipe then a card that cheats out like 5 end-game creatures.

"it's just a good deck"
I don't think having the game carried by one ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ card, or two ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ cards that instant win the game, is what should be a good deck. I think a good deck should have actual strategy and synergy not just putting out an instant win card personally.

My bad, i thought it was willie not weenie for some reason.


"they are tapped out"

So? Like you keep saying they are tapped out, as if that instantly loses them the game. You don't have a board after a board wipe, so it doesn't matter that they are tapped out lmao.

As for what gives them the win is that you can't get any cards if they destroy your card draw and keep the 2-3 to 1 card trade off.

It's not silly to say creature based decks aren't viable, or they are all but not viable- because they aren't lol. with the exception of Aggro but that's not even creature based it's "deal 20 damage as fast as possible" based using a few expendable creatures.

I find it hard to believe you don't think creature decks aren't all but unviable.

[anaris]

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

That's just not true, playing board wipes removes your opponent's board and resources, and usually you can play enchants or artifacts or lands that turn into creatures, to do 1 damage.

1: so can you
2: wow if only you were in the colour that is primary for destroying artifacts

So basically the other person can't play anything, because it gets board wiped, while the board wiped does like 1 damage untill they win

there is no deck alive that can survive having 20 board wipes.

Ok so if you have haste, you can do 4 damage.

uh.... no, that'd be 1+2+3+4, or 10 damage. Then you do it a second time after the board wipe.

They can still play removal, or another board wipe, untill you have no cards.

you've said this a couple of times and just to be clear, are you saying *you are losing to drawing on an empty deck*?

Then they have one creature do damage to you while you have nothing and win by doing 1 damage over the course of 20 turns while removing the board- assuming they are lucky enough and know what they are doing enough.

so your opponent perfectly topdecks their removal and boardwipes every turn and you.... don't.... have.... any..... removal in your deck?????????

[anaris]

we're talking about an elves deck that can't win in 20 turns unless there's no removal in the enemy deck, so like.... either you're wildly exaggerating to the point of ridiculousness or like, you have a bigger problem than hare apparent

[Malvastor]

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Malvastor tarafından gönderildi:

Also, have you considered a correlation between angry profanity-laced rants and bans?

You mean angry profanity laced rants tend to be because of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bans?

No ♥♥♥♥ sherlock.

I should be able to say whatever i want, i shouldn't be banned for merely talking on a forum just because Steam want's to emulate a certain failed artist from Austria as much as possible.

Valve is a private organization. They make Steam and let people say stuff on it, but there are conditions upfront for that privilege. Namely, that you not turn the forum into a toxic cesspit filled with angry foul-mouthed rants. If you violate that they are well within their rights to not let you continue using that service. Just like you'd ask a houseguest to leave if they took a dump on your couch.

Calling them Hitler for that because "I should be able to say whatever I want" is just... unspeakably childish.

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Malvastor tarafından gönderildi:

So... that's a completely different kind of limit then. You're saying a limit should be placed on how many X you can have in a deck, but the legendary limit doesn't address that at all.



Because 1. it's not needed 2. it's an arbitrary limit of the kind nothing else gets saddled with and 3. it would arguably unbalance things by advantaging the token swarm decks OP is complaining about.



...then why come back to the forum you hate run by a company you hate for a game you hate made by another company you hate?

Like, if all this stuff makes you so miserable, why come back and wallow in it? That's just self-torture.



I am, that's why I didn't suggest 'picking an entirely new deck midgame' (though you could always play BO3 and make deck edits between matches).

I said "don't throw all your creatures in the path of repeated boardwipes", which you can implement without changing your deck at all, and "use removal" which- well, hopefully our hypothetical player already has that in their deck.



I mean, no one's saying you shouldn't? Who here is holding a gun to your head and making you play Arena? By your own admission you don't play anymore, you just came back to complain about it.

I'm not reading this entire text wall.

At least 50% of that was your own text lol.

[Malvastor]

İlk olarak anaris tarafından gönderildi:

either you're wildly exaggerating to the point of ridiculousness or like, you have a bigger problem than hare apparent

Why not both?

[ChaffyExpert]

İlk olarak anaris tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

That's just not true, playing board wipes removes your opponent's board and resources, and usually you can play enchants or artifacts or lands that turn into creatures, to do 1 damage.

1: so can you
2: wow if only you were in the colour that is primary for destroying artifacts

So basically the other person can't play anything, because it gets board wiped, while the board wiped does like 1 damage untill they win

there is no deck alive that can survive having 20 board wipes.

Ok so if you have haste, you can do 4 damage.

uh.... no, that'd be 1+2+3+4, or 10 damage. Then you do it a second time after the board wipe.

They can still play removal, or another board wipe, untill you have no cards.

you've said this a couple of times and just to be clear, are you saying *you are losing to drawing on an empty deck*?

Then they have one creature do damage to you while you have nothing and win by doing 1 damage over the course of 20 turns while removing the board- assuming they are lucky enough and know what they are doing enough.

so your opponent perfectly topdecks their removal and boardwipes every turn and you.... don't.... have.... any..... removal in your deck?????????

1. "so can you"
But i don't want to, i don't want to play that game, and i shouldn't have to just because it's what's viable or meta.
2.
I tend to not put in artifact removal, because the point is quick damage and that detracts from that. I could put it in, but i take the risk of being able to do 20 points of damage before they can use it for a game ending situation. If i lose, so what.

"There is no deck alive that can survive 20 board wipes."
Thanks for proving my point.

"actually you do 10 damage"

Assuming they don't have wall blockers that let them draw.

Or that they don't play Split Up to board wipe everything you attacked with (everything) which is tapped on turn 3.... or have other removal or interaction specifically to stall until they get board wipes- which they always do.

No, if you get lucky, you can out last them (although it's very boring 30 minutes of doing nothing or more. but most of the time, the board wipes are cheap and fast enough that you can't really come back. Even if you put the bare minimum on the board.

Also if your deck requires playing creatures to draw cards to begin with you're kinda screwed.

"don't have any removal"

That's not true, and i can have 3 removals, if they have 6 creatures that are 10/10 with haste trample and whatever else because they cheated out a bunch of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ it doesn't matter- especially since they board wiped my entire board the TURN BEFORE.

[ChaffyExpert]

İlk olarak Malvastor tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

You mean angry profanity laced rants tend to be because of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bans?

No ♥♥♥♥ sherlock.

I should be able to say whatever i want, i shouldn't be banned for merely talking on a forum just because Steam want's to emulate a certain failed artist from Austria as much as possible.

Valve is a private organization. They make Steam and let people say stuff on it, but there are conditions upfront for that privilege. Namely, that you not turn the forum into a toxic cesspit filled with angry foul-mouthed rants. If you violate that they are well within their rights to not let you continue using that service. Just like you'd ask a houseguest to leave if they took a dump on your couch.

Calling them Hitler for that because "I should be able to say whatever I want" is just... unspeakably childish.

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

I'm not reading this entire text wall.

At least 50% of that was your own text lol.

"Valve is a private company therefore they are right to be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and you are in the wrong"

That just makes me think Communists may have had a point. If nothing else at least they would get what they deserve.

No sorry, i'm not childish for calling out Steam. I am rightfully angry, because of the ♥♥♥♥ they do, and i'm only pointing out their own actions are terrible. I don't see how i'm childish for calling a duck, a duck.

Being a corporation doesn't give you a right to be an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, or to do whatever you want, if anything, that's a good reason, again, to become a communist then. If their existence gives them the the right, then maybe they should just be banned.... from existence.

In any case, i'm not doing anything wrong by talking on a forum, and there is NO reason for me to be banned just because Steam wants to emulate failed Austrian artist, and i rightfully point out their HORRIBLE ATROCIOUS actions.


What i have to ask, is why you are defending a corporation on such obviously horrible atrocious actions just because "well they have a billion dollars, so if they kill the world with climate change, censor people, act like failed austrian artist, destroy rainforests, infringe on basic human rights and pay people pennies while they make billions etc. it doesn't matter because their billion dollars gives them the right to, apparently. And we are in the wrong for questioning anything they do.

I'm not in the wrong for talking. They are in the wrong for censorship. Regardless of if they have the "right" to do so.

Steam is literally ran like a fascist dictatorship but somehow i'm childish for pointing it out. It's like calling me childish for saying "the sky is blue"

[ChaffyExpert]

İlk olarak anaris tarafından gönderildi:

we're talking about an elves deck that can't win in 20 turns unless there's no removal in the enemy deck, so like.... either you're wildly exaggerating to the point of ridiculousness or like, you have a bigger problem than hare apparent

No that's just not true you're just strawmanning.

İlk olarak Malvastor tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak anaris tarafından gönderildi:

either you're wildly exaggerating to the point of ridiculousness or like, you have a bigger problem than hare apparent

Why not both?

No it's just not true it's strawmanning what i'm saying.

I literally never said:
1. that there is no removal (i have hunter's talent but it's ill-equipped in this age of Magic Green just has terrible removal)
2. that it takes 20 turns to win, even with removal.

[anaris]

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

1. "so can you"
But i don't want to, i don't want to play that game, and i shouldn't have to just because it's what's viable or meta.

you don't want to run manlands or artifacts or interaction?

you should be playing yugioh.

2.
I tend to not put in artifact removal, because the point is quick damage and that detracts from that. I could put it in, but i take the risk of being able to do 20 points of damage before they can use it for a game ending situation. If i lose, so what.

either you're winning enough or you need to change your strategy. You can't have it both ways

"There is no deck alive that can survive 20 board wipes."
Thanks for proving my point.

oh honey....

most decks have at most 15 slots for interaction, they can't boardwipe twenty turns in a row and swing for 1 each time and win unless your deck is literally garbage.

"actually you do 10 damage"

Assuming they don't have wall blockers that let them draw.

try playing a red deck sometime

Or that they don't play Split Up to board wipe everything you attacked with (everything) which is tapped on turn 3.... or have other removal or interaction specifically to stall until they get board wipes- which they always do.

split up only works if you tapped everything and they conspicuously didn't lol maybe hold something back like you said you do.

No, if you get lucky, you can out last them (although it's very boring 30 minutes of doing nothing or more. but most of the time, the board wipes are cheap and fast enough that you can't really come back. Even if you put the bare minimum on the board.

just so we're clear, I run 15 board wipes in my brawl deck and what you're saying is just not true

Also if your deck requires playing creatures to draw cards to begin with you're kinda screwed.

you're playing elves. you don't need extra draw, every card's a banger.

"don't have any removal"

That's not true, and i can have 3 removals, if they have 6 creatures that are 10/10 with haste trample and whatever else because they cheated out a bunch of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ it doesn't matter- especially since they board wiped my entire board the TURN BEFORE.

so when you have to summon things after a boardwipe, summoning sickness is a terrible thing that keeps you from ever recovering. But when THEY do it, it's an unbeatable strategy you can't possibly defend against.

also

what if

there was say

some kind of removal

that can hit

multiple creatures at once? Wow if only something like that existed.

Also you're literally in the colour that is best at putting out 6 10/10s with haste and trample on turn 3. Other colours don't even GET trample lol!

[ChaffyExpert]

İlk olarak anaris tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

1. "so can you"
But i don't want to, i don't want to play that game, and i shouldn't have to just because it's what's viable or meta.

you don't want to run manlands or artifacts or interaction?

you should be playing yugioh.

2.
I tend to not put in artifact removal, because the point is quick damage and that detracts from that. I could put it in, but i take the risk of being able to do 20 points of damage before they can use it for a game ending situation. If i lose, so what.

either you're winning enough or you need to change your strategy. You can't have it both ways

"There is no deck alive that can survive 20 board wipes."
Thanks for proving my point.

oh honey....

most decks have at most 15 slots for interaction, they can't boardwipe twenty turns in a row and swing for 1 each time and win unless your deck is literally garbage.

"actually you do 10 damage"

Assuming they don't have wall blockers that let them draw.

try playing a red deck sometime

Or that they don't play Split Up to board wipe everything you attacked with (everything) which is tapped on turn 3.... or have other removal or interaction specifically to stall until they get board wipes- which they always do.

split up only works if you tapped everything and they conspicuously didn't lol maybe hold something back like you said you do.

No, if you get lucky, you can out last them (although it's very boring 30 minutes of doing nothing or more. but most of the time, the board wipes are cheap and fast enough that you can't really come back. Even if you put the bare minimum on the board.

just so we're clear, I run 15 board wipes in my brawl deck and what you're saying is just not true

Also if your deck requires playing creatures to draw cards to begin with you're kinda screwed.

you're playing elves. you don't need extra draw, every card's a banger.

"don't have any removal"

That's not true, and i can have 3 removals, if they have 6 creatures that are 10/10 with haste trample and whatever else because they cheated out a bunch of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ it doesn't matter- especially since they board wiped my entire board the TURN BEFORE.

so when you have to summon things after a boardwipe, summoning sickness is a terrible thing that keeps you from ever recovering. But when THEY do it, it's an unbeatable strategy you can't possibly defend against.

also

what if

there was say

some kind of removal

that can hit

multiple creatures at once? Wow if only something like that existed.

Also you're literally in the colour that is best at putting out 6 10/10s with haste and trample on turn 3. Other colours don't even GET trample lol!

You're still saying stuff about how i play that isn't true, and putting words in my mouth.

Ill wait for you to stop before i respond to any "points" you are making to begin with.

As an example:
"you don't run any artifacts"

I guess Ozolith isn't an artifact now.

"you can either winning enough or you aren't"

Maybe instead of just saying anyone with a problem with the game has a garbage deck you should actually listen to what someone is saying.

As for your last point, it's almost as if i don't use board wipes except commander. It's almost like it's not the type of game i want to play. It's almost like i don't want to add white to my deck just to board wipe, while playing a creature heavy deck Hence it is counter-intuitive. It's almost like i play creature based decks and think creature based decks should at least be viable.

[anaris]

İlk olarak ChaffyExpert tarafından gönderildi:

1. that there is no removal (i have hunter's talent but it's ill-equipped in this age of Magic Green just has terrible removal)

then what you did say (that it's impossible for you to remove artifacts or land creatures your enemy uses) is a lie.

2. that it takes 20 turns to win, even with removal.

right, you said you lose to someone who hits you for only one damage a turn.

Just because you don't think about the things your statement implies and requires, doesn't mean I made them up