These black decks are getting ridiculous

[LeoFIN uTube]

So they have now multiple card combos that make you insta lose game if you dont have instant card (and mana to use it) that get rid of one of the combo cards in the field.

[ChaffyExpert]

Black literally has the best everything, best removal, best card draw, best removal (discard and instant kill and forced sacrifice is literally the best options for removing things.) best board wipes (The End) Best low cost creatures (deep cavern bat, death touch creatures, creatures that mill to enact graveyard strategies) and the best higher cost creatures (phyrexian obliterator, sheoldred, Arcatraz)

Not to mention 2 card instant win combos and cards that halve your life, pay 4 mana, get rid of half you're opponent's life, yeah that's fair. lmao.

Decent card draw, if not some of the best. (pay one life, draw a card, universally applicable and requires no real setup, and is easy to mitigate losing a life for drawing a card)

Best planes walkers, Liliana, Nicol Bolas for Commander, and plenty of others. At least i think they have the scariest planeswalkers, colorless and green ones can be scary too.

And on top of that they have a lot of damage over time stuff to indirectly kill you so they don't need to necessarily be able to attack with creatures.

[ChaffyExpert]

Originalmente postado por John-Silver:

Originalmente postado por ChaffyExpert:

This is objectively false. Black has some of the best removal, (along with white) having cheap ones, that are instant speed, and hard to counter (sheoldred's edict for example gets around indestructible.)

Green's removal is literally "does damage to smn" which is the least useful way of removal because it 1. requires having a bigger creature to use, and 2. does nothing against hexproof indestructible, or Phyrexian Obliterator.

Green has the worst removal, red is on par but they only really need to do 3 damage because they intend to win every game before turn 5 anyways.

In historic green has tons of destroy target/exile target options that can be choosen to be used for other purpose like archdruid's charm for example, you can at instant speed, force a fight, destroy enchant/artifact or ramp land for 3. Green has the best VERSATILE destruction IMO not better than any other color really, but certainly not bad. Green also has many of the best cross-over color destroys in B/G and W/G, I'm not arguing that green is better than others, I'm just arguing that it's not horrible but their not as no brain to play, which is what I think you actually mean about black and white to a degree, you can just play the card, destroy the thing, move on. Well with green you have to decide if you want to use your destroy for x or hold out for hopefully using it for Y.

Yeah but that's historic, historic there's always going to be niche cards like that.

While it has some cantrips you can do instead, that's not "the best most versatile destruction" it's literally just "if destroying something isn't useful, here's a cantrip to help"

In terms of versatility for actually removing things, Green is one of the worst because all it does is do damage- which has many things that can counter it, and it is put in the Graveyard, so it can be re-animated.

(again, not including the exceptions to the rule)

Like if someone plops Phyrexian Obliterator, unless you are in historic, if you are mono-green that's instant GG because they have literally no way of removing it without triggering it's one-sided board wipe.

White Black Blue all have ways around it (instant destroy, exile, force sacrifice, etc.) Red and Green are very limited to only doing damage to the thing.

I will say that Green doesn't have the absolute worst, now that i think about it, that title goes to Red- but red plans on winning before those big things with keywords around "damage" and such come out.


So in terms of tiers:
S tier: White/black, plethora of ways to get around cards like Phyrexian Obliterator, has board wipes.
Mid: Blue (counterspells have more counters now, but they do have return to hand and tap stuff and other ways of taking a piece out of the game effectively) Also has one-sided board removal/tapping.
Green: Does damage, has a few exception cards that exile, has some cantrips, no board wipes that i'm aware of i could be wrong on that tho.
Red: Hurr durr 3 damage lighting bolt. (although Brotherhood's end is a great early game board wipe)

[John-Silver]

Originalmente postado por ChaffyExpert:

While it has some cantrips you can do instead, that's not "the best most versatile destruction" it's literally just "if destroying something isn't useful, here's a cantrip to help"

which is the best versatility (for destroy), black and white never have extra effects that you can activate without having a target for the destroy/exile portion, and often "destroy prevalent decks" brick when they hit a hand of destroys when their opponent isn't plaything anything that the cards interacts with, red has a few versatile damage cards but their ultimately limited by 3-5 damage where as an instant that can give deathtouch + indestruct well being able to be used for niche responces will always out perform deal 3 damage to any target spells etc. They also have some of the most useful escalate answer cards imo.

Edit addition: Phyrexian Obliterator isn't this broken op card you all exclaim it to be, trample + death touch out right beats the card senseless as you just apply 1 damage, or you use one of the multitudes of 1 cost deathtouch + 2 cost force fight. You can bounce it, exile it, counter it, destroy it, steal control of it, steal and fling it, their are cards that literally read opponents can't sacrifice or cause other players to sacrifice permanents to activate or cast cards.

[Hannah Barbara]

The c olour of choice for braindeads. Is it any wonder they have zombies?

[Traumaturgy]

Green in standard has decent enchantment/artifact removal, and some spells to kill flying dudes. But against creatures that dont fly its quite bad.

[ChaffyExpert]

Originalmente postado por John-Silver:

Originalmente postado por ChaffyExpert:

While it has some cantrips you can do instead, that's not "the best most versatile destruction" it's literally just "if destroying something isn't useful, here's a cantrip to help"

which is the best versatility (for destroy), black and white never have extra effects that you can activate without having a target for the destroy/exile portion, and often "destroy prevalent decks" brick when they hit a hand of destroys when their opponent isn't plaything anything that the cards interacts with, red has a few versatile damage cards but their ultimately limited by 3-5 damage where as an instant that can give deathtouch + indestruct well being able to be used for niche responces will always out perform deal 3 damage to any target spells etc. They also have some of the most useful escalate answer cards imo.

Edit addition: Phyrexian Obliterator isn't this broken op card you all exclaim it to be, trample + death touch out right beats the card senseless as you just apply 1 damage, or you use one of the multitudes of 1 cost deathtouch + 2 cost force fight. You can bounce it, exile it, counter it, destroy it, steal control of it, steal and fling it, their are cards that literally read opponents can't sacrifice or cause other players to sacrifice permanents to activate or cast cards.

Again having a cantrip doesn't mean it's versatile. There's a difference between 'has a nice bonus' and 'is versatile at doing what it's supposed to do. Green's removal is NOT versatile it just has cantrips. When it comes to removing things, it's the easiest to counter and is unable to remove several cards (like any that have indestructible)

Phyrexian obliterator is the most OP card it is literally GG when it hits the field and you can't remove it with an instant because it will keep attacking untill you are dead and you can't black it without it being a one-sided board wipe including lands.

[John-Silver]

Originalmente postado por ChaffyExpert:

Originalmente postado por John-Silver:

which is the best versatility (for destroy), black and white never have extra effects that you can activate without having a target for the destroy/exile portion, and often "destroy prevalent decks" brick when they hit a hand of destroys when their opponent isn't plaything anything that the cards interacts with, red has a few versatile damage cards but their ultimately limited by 3-5 damage where as an instant that can give deathtouch + indestruct well being able to be used for niche responces will always out perform deal 3 damage to any target spells etc. They also have some of the most useful escalate answer cards imo.

Edit addition: Phyrexian Obliterator isn't this broken op card you all exclaim it to be, trample + death touch out right beats the card senseless as you just apply 1 damage, or you use one of the multitudes of 1 cost deathtouch + 2 cost force fight. You can bounce it, exile it, counter it, destroy it, steal control of it, steal and fling it, their are cards that literally read opponents can't sacrifice or cause other players to sacrifice permanents to activate or cast cards.

Again having a cantrip doesn't mean it's versatile. There's a difference between 'has a nice bonus' and 'is versatile at doing what it's supposed to do. Green's removal is NOT versatile it just has cantrips. When it comes to removing things, it's the easiest to counter and is unable to remove several cards (like any that have indestructible)

Phyrexian obliterator is the most OP card it is literally GG when it hits the field and you can't remove it with an instant because it will keep attacking untill you are dead and you can't black it without it being a one-sided board wipe including lands.

Versatile means that it can do things outside of it's normal function, not sure what you think it means. And PO isn't OP, I can name thousands of cards that'll do the same thing when hitting the board. If you're having trouble with PO chances are you'd have trouble was an equally annoying creature not just it.

[ChaffyExpert]

Originalmente postado por John-Silver:

Originalmente postado por ChaffyExpert:

Again having a cantrip doesn't mean it's versatile. There's a difference between 'has a nice bonus' and 'is versatile at doing what it's supposed to do. Green's removal is NOT versatile it just has cantrips. When it comes to removing things, it's the easiest to counter and is unable to remove several cards (like any that have indestructible)

Phyrexian obliterator is the most OP card it is literally GG when it hits the field and you can't remove it with an instant because it will keep attacking untill you are dead and you can't black it without it being a one-sided board wipe including lands.

Versatile means that it can do things outside of it's normal function, not sure what you think it means. And PO isn't OP, I can name thousands of cards that'll do the same thing when hitting the board. If you're having trouble with PO chances are you'd have trouble was an equally annoying creature not just it.

Again it's just a little cantrip, it's not really doing anything beyond it's normal function it's not even doing it's normal function that well.

[John-Silver]

Originalmente postado por ChaffyExpert:

Originalmente postado por John-Silver:

Versatile means that it can do things outside of it's normal function, not sure what you think it means. And PO isn't OP, I can name thousands of cards that'll do the same thing when hitting the board. If you're having trouble with PO chances are you'd have trouble was an equally annoying creature not just it.

Again it's just a little cantrip, it's not really doing anything beyond it's normal function it's not even doing it's normal function that well.

they destroy artifacts and enchantments perfectly well and better than black, not sure what you mean but not functioning well and can destroy creatures just fine when a deck is made proper, just because you're not adapt at playing a certain style of cards properly doesn't make them bad cards or not functional it just makes your play-style more linear.

[ice]

Originalmente postado por Traumaturgy:

Green in standard has decent enchantment/artifact removal, and some spells to kill flying dudes. But against creatures that dont fly its quite bad.

green can literally trigger non combat phase fights and kill non flying creatures with death touch and indestructible

name another color that can

[ChaffyExpert]

Originalmente postado por ice:

Originalmente postado por Traumaturgy:

Green in standard has decent enchantment/artifact removal, and some spells to kill flying dudes. But against creatures that dont fly its quite bad.

green can literally trigger non combat phase fights and kill non flying creatures with death touch and indestructible

name another color that can

Name any color that can kill things?

White Black Blue Red and Green, and even colorless.

[ice]

tbh if u want to just remove ur opponent's junk just play green white

black is one of the weaker colors for removal it can't even remove artifacts and enchants

[ChaffyExpert]

Originalmente postado por ice:

tbh if u want to just remove ur opponent's junk just play green white

black is one of the weaker colors for removal it can't even remove artifacts and enchants

Lol no green has the worst removal, and black has the absolute best removal.

I'm not sure about artifacts or enchants, but i'm sure there's some that do that.

Like Glissa.

Green's removal is "fighting" (which can damage or kill your creature lmao) Does damage, and removes artifacts enchantments and a creature with flier, and doesn't have board wipes.

Blacks literally gets around indestructible and hexproof- on the same creature even. and has discard for anything else, including "look in hand and exile" which LITERALLY can't be countered at all. Has board wipes, and a card that looks through your deck and hand to exile everything with the same name so they can destroy a combo deck with one card.

One of these is better than the other.

[Dredge]

i just played one of the starter challenges with a beginner deck and it put me against a black deck that put down like 2 or 3 cards that caused the game to go into a +1/-1 HP loop for almost 2 minutes until i had no hp left. are effects like that supposed to proc more than once per turn? that seems like bad programming to me

[LeoFIN uTube]

Originalmente postado por ChaffyExpert:

Originalmente postado por ice:

tbh if u want to just remove ur opponent's junk just play green white

black is one of the weaker colors for removal it can't even remove artifacts and enchants

Lol no green has the worst removal, and black has the absolute best removal.

I'm not sure about artifacts or enchants, but i'm sure there's some that do that.

Like Glissa.

Green's removal is "fighting" (which can damage or kill your creature lmao) Does damage, and removes artifacts enchantments and a creature with flier, and doesn't have board wipes.

Blacks literally gets around indestructible and hexproof- on the same creature even. and has discard for anything else, including "look in hand and exile" which LITERALLY can't be countered at all. Has board wipes, and a card that looks through your deck and hand to exile everything with the same name so they can destroy a combo deck with one card.

One of these is better than the other.

The card that exiles and exiles all cards with same name is so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ OP.