counters v.s. redundancy

[kingjames488]

are you better off trying to counter everything, or just having a deck that can roll with it?

[Kolarahidumgarabashtelarimdugarn]

It depends on the meta. Huge variety of deck types makes it difficult to counter a decent percentage of decks. If the variety of decks is low, then you have a chance of creating a deck that counters enemy deck most of the times.

Some goes for the counter mechanic. Sometimes it can be the easiest way of dealing with boring repetitive decks, sometimes it will be useless.

[ChaffyExpert]

The advantage counters and discard and similar decks is that they are specialized. Their win condition isn't really "take the opponent's health to 0" as much, it's more of "reduce your opponent's ability to play the game so one card can win it.

So basically from what i've seen from blue counters, is that they usually splash white or black. The reason is to kill things on the board, because for the first 4 or so turns your opponent can probably put things out before you get your counterspells.

You also need to set up your board, usually with enchants and artifacts, to keep drawing cards and/or limit your opponent (such as High Noon).

Use counters and targeted removal on threats, then use board wipes to clear the small creatures, draw cards, and gain passive life, until you're opponent is unable to play the game.

The win condition of counterspell decks is basically to prevent the other person from playing the game and prevent their deck from doing whatever it is it does.


However removal and board wipes is currently more effective, because cavern of souls and other such cards derail this strategy. Which is why these decks always have tons of "field of ruins"

[ChaffyExpert]

That's also why if you keep getting resources (card draw) then you can generally win anyways with persistence. I usually concede without cavern of souls though because a 30 minuate game of attrition- without being able to do anything because playing a card means the game ends, and i have way better things to do.

[kingjames488]

idk, seems to be better to just build advantage.

[PJ]

12 removal is the amount I start with in decks. I don't go under it, and I don't go over it unless the removal I'm adding also brings something else to the table. Creatures explode too fast right now to let anything remotely dangerous looking through.

[kingjames488]

Originally posted by PJ:

12 removal is the amount I start with in decks. I don't go under it, and I don't go over it unless the removal I'm adding also brings something else to the table. Creatures explode too fast right now to let anything remotely dangerous looking through.

ok, have fun holding all your mana and never doing anything :)

[PJ]

Originally posted by kingjames488:

Originally posted by PJ:

12 removal is the amount I start with in decks. I don't go under it, and I don't go over it unless the removal I'm adding also brings something else to the table. Creatures explode too fast right now to let anything remotely dangerous looking through.

ok, have fun holding all your mana and never doing anything :)

Thank you I will! I really enjoy playing control because I like longer games :)

[kingjames488]

Originally posted by PJ:

Originally posted by kingjames488:

ok, have fun holding all your mana and never doing anything :)

Thank you I will! I really enjoy playing control because I like longer games :)

fine... maybe I'll just not cast entity tracker yet... I can do it on your turn.

[anaris]

You can't counter everything. Control decks need specific tech for specific threats; like, I have to be able to draw my enchantment removal or artifact hate or whatever when someone drops a "spells you control cannot be countered" effect, for example. I need boardwipes for creatures, my own wincons and the cards that get them in play but don't require me to establish a strong board position, I need exiles and counters both, and I need to have a landbase that lets me do this stuff while holding 2-4 mana open for responding to an opponent. So much of control is 1-for-1 trades that you need to claw card advantage back wherever you can, and then on top of that you also need to tutor/recur specific effects, and that means using your life, your own board position, and even your deck as extra resources you can expend.

tl;dr If you counterspell three turns worth of goblins, you'll have nothing to stop you taking a dinosaur to the face on turn 4

[kingjames488]

Originally posted by anaris:

You can't counter everything. Control decks need specific tech for specific threats; like, I have to be able to draw my enchantment removal or artifact hate or whatever when someone drops a "spells you control cannot be countered" effect, for example. I need boardwipes for creatures, my own wincons and the cards that get them in play but don't require me to establish a strong board position, I need exiles and counters both, and I need to have a landbase that lets me do this stuff while holding 2-4 mana open for responding to an opponent. So much of control is 1-for-1 trades that you need to claw card advantage back wherever you can, and then on top of that you also need to tutor/recur specific effects, and that means using your life, your own board position, and even your deck as extra resources you can expend.

tl;dr If you counterspell three turns worth of goblins, you'll have nothing to stop you taking a dinosaur to the face on turn 4

but what if I use my enchantment on turn 1 to negate their creatures effects and make it a 0/2 and the return it to me hand on turn 2 to bring out the fear of being alone... and then use it again on turn 3 >:D

I like when I can use things twice... good advantage.

[DontEatSmurfs]

you can try to find trends of the meta during the week, for a while now graveyard hate seems to be amazing, people are using not only lots of enchants but they are also using a lot of their graveyard, from toxic control to U/B auras, they are always fetching stuff from the graveyard and they also use a lot of enchants, if you are running G right now i would always recommend to use frillback in your deck if possible, running 2 is enough to lock the gameplan from your oponent and at least turn the table for a win, you can use enchant hate against the overlords for example, people are using a lot of beans so you can hate on that, at least during DSK hate against enchants and graveyards are one way to counter that works the majority of games

[PJ]

Originally posted by DISCUSSION OVER!!!:

Originally posted by PJ:

Thank you I will! I really enjoy playing control because I like longer games :)

fine... maybe I'll just not cast entity tracker yet... I can do it on your turn.

I cast blue eyes white dragon in defense mode.

[anaris]

Originally posted by DISCUSSION OVER!!!:

but what if I use my enchantment on turn 1 to negate their creatures effects and make it a 0/2 and the return it to me hand on turn 2 to bring out the fear of being alone... and then use it again on turn 3 >:D

I like when I can use things twice... good advantage.

4-of snapcaster mage is never wrong! but 8 Counterspells isn't enough to stop an entire RDW either hahah

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

Countering everything leads to long boring games and you have less room for your own win condition if it is not them rage quitting from control