I repeat: the shuffler is broken

[erutan2099]

I've said it before, I will say it again. The shuffler in this game is not good.

Case and point - I am literally winning bets consistently with my friends about what card I will draw next. If it were shuffled properly, I would not be able to do that.

[John-Silver]

TWITCH.TV/PALADINY0S の投稿を引用：

nul の投稿を引用：

its expensive for ML training because they have a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of nodes and run through generations as fast as they can. You really can't compare a waste of computing to something as simple as rearranging an array. Especially since it only needs to shuffle whenever there's a demand for it.

It can't be that hard.... let's see
assign number value to cards in array based on order in deck
RAN 1-60 (or deck size) each value
if number taken reroll
if number not taken assign RAN generated value to replace starting value
new array with RAN'd numbers is deck order
no card weighting land weighting hand smoothing just a straight shuffle

You can't just assign numbers to cards and pull from them, you HAVE to have a preset order or how do things like scry or putting cards of the bottoms of the deck work? It's also prone to unrealistic scenarios like all your lands being number 1-24 than if you randomly hit nothing but those low numbers you'd see to an unrealistic depiction of shuffling. I'm not saying it's not "random" I am saying that it doesn't work for a card game where shuffling and maintaining deck order is key.

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

So pseudo random anybody? Just for land draws tho

[TWITCH.TV/PALADINY0S]

John-Silver の投稿を引用：

TWITCH.TV/PALADINY0S の投稿を引用：

It can't be that hard.... let's see
assign number value to cards in array based on order in deck
RAN 1-60 (or deck size) each value
if number taken reroll
if number not taken assign RAN generated value to replace starting value
new array with RAN'd numbers is deck order
no card weighting land weighting hand smoothing just a straight shuffle

You can't just assign numbers to cards and pull from them, you HAVE to have a preset order or how do things like scry or putting cards of the bottoms of the deck work? It's also prone to unrealistic scenarios like all your lands being number 1-24 than if you randomly hit nothing but those low numbers you'd see to an unrealistic depiction of shuffling. I'm not saying it's not "random" I am saying that it doesn't work for a card game where shuffling and maintaining deck order is key.

I say shuffle the lands separate then add them back in at a set rate, I realize paper magic doesn't do this, but that's why we got good at manaweaving and only shuffle the required times so you don't get blotches of 20 no land or all land hands. We had to skirt the rules of shuffling irl because the concept of random land draw making non-games inevitable is the biggest fundamental flaw in the game and always has been.

[TWITCH.TV/PALADINY0S]

John-Silver の投稿を引用：

TWITCH.TV/PALADINY0S の投稿を引用：

It can't be that hard.... let's see
assign number value to cards in array based on order in deck
RAN 1-60 (or deck size) each value
if number taken reroll
if number not taken assign RAN generated value to replace starting value
new array with RAN'd numbers is deck order
no card weighting land weighting hand smoothing just a straight shuffle

You can't just assign numbers to cards and pull from them, you HAVE to have a preset order or how do things like scry or putting cards of the bottoms of the deck work? It's also prone to unrealistic scenarios like all your lands being number 1-24 than if you randomly hit nothing but those low numbers you'd see to an unrealistic depiction of shuffling. I'm not saying it's not "random" I am saying that it doesn't work for a card game where shuffling and maintaining deck order is key.

once it's shuffled the assigned values are the place in the deck, scry would work as always, so you draw card 1, but that was originally card 53 or something

[magnumaniac]

TWITCH.TV/PALADINY0S の投稿を引用：

I realize paper magic doesn't do this, but that's why we got good at manaweaving and only shuffle the required times so you don't get blotches of 20 no land or all land hands. We had to skirt the rules of shuffling irl because the concept of random land draw making non-games inevitable is the biggest fundamental flaw in the game and always has been.

Fine if you are playing kitchen table magic and all participants agree - but mana weaving is expressly forbidden in any organised play. It is also why you see so many baseless complaints about the shuffler in MTGA, because people do not understand what a truly randomized deck can and will deliver.

Yeah the mana system sucks, and always has done - but that's Magic, not likely to change now after 30+ years.

[nul]

TWITCH.TV/PALADINY0S の投稿を引用：

nul の投稿を引用：

its expensive for ML training because they have a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of nodes and run through generations as fast as they can. You really can't compare a waste of computing to something as simple as rearranging an array. Especially since it only needs to shuffle whenever there's a demand for it.

It can't be that hard.... let's see
assign number value to cards in array based on order in deck
RAN 1-60 (or deck size) each value
if number taken reroll
if number not taken assign RAN generated value to replace starting value
new array with RAN'd numbers is deck order
no card weighting land weighting hand smoothing just a straight shuffle

Nah, dump the deck into a shuffler array.
loop until the shuffler array is empty
in the loop, pick a random integer between 0 and shuffler array size -1, pop from shuffle, push into deck

no rerolling required

[ʍolɟ ǝɥʇ ǝsɹǝʌǝɹ]

Mana weaving is basically pseudo random. I'd be for this in unranked bo1 in addition to hand smoother. I think it would actually be a great qol update

[TWITCH.TV/PALADINY0S]

magnumaniac の投稿を引用：

TWITCH.TV/PALADINY0S の投稿を引用：

I realize paper magic doesn't do this, but that's why we got good at manaweaving and only shuffle the required times so you don't get blotches of 20 no land or all land hands. We had to skirt the rules of shuffling irl because the concept of random land draw making non-games inevitable is the biggest fundamental flaw in the game and always has been.

Fine if you are playing kitchen table magic and all participants agree - but mana weaving is expressly forbidden in any organised play. It is also why you see so many baseless complaints about the shuffler in MTGA, because people do not understand what a truly randomized deck can and will deliver.

Yeah the mana system sucks, and always has done - but that's Magic, not likely to change now after 30+ years.

I haven't played paper in years, they banned manaweaving? How nice of them to ensure their broken mechanic stays in fact broken.
Think of how many extra cards we could have in decks to make them more interesting if we didn't have to spend half the deck fixing 1/3 of the decks cards (mana)

[Kurt Angle's Neck]

TWITCH.TV/PALADINY0S の投稿を引用：

I haven't played paper in years, they banned manaweaving?

It has always been against the rules. You must shuffle your deck until you cannot possibly know that location or order of any card.
MTR 3.10 Card Shuffling[blogs.magicjudges.org]

[ZAP]

Even if you alternate land-instant/sorcery-permanent you can end up with the same order while looking like you're shuffling and cutting for 5 minutes. Probably why fetchlands are really so played, you see a judge walking up and you crack the thing.

[ice]

you cannot get truly random from a computer

your paper deck isn't random either unless you're willing to buy casino shuffler

[Ha 何豪源]

im convinved that its certainly rigged (the constant topdecking, which cant be even be hiden anymore in brawl), and i hope one day a leaker will have access to their code and show the world that in the end those who critizited it, where right in the end

even when that happens, there will be still be the riders of wotc coming for their rescue with all kind of excuses

edit: and after the post the shuffler showed its best side with 0,1% chances in 1 game, honestly .... devs, if you ever read this than hiding on reddit behind fan mods, i really ask you if you can look yourself in the mirror

[ChaffyExpert]

Ha 何豪源 の投稿を引用：

im convinved that its certainly rigged (the constant topdecking, which cant be even be hiden anymore in brawl), and i hope one day a leaker will have access to their code and show the world that in the end those who critizited it, where right in the end

even when that happens, there will be still be the riders of wotc coming for their rescue with all kind of excuses

edit: and after the post the shuffler showed its best side with 0,1% chances in 1 game, honestly .... devs, if you ever read this than hiding on reddit behind fan mods, i really ask you if you can look yourself in the mirror

You being convinced it's rigged doesn't mean it is rigged.

Also, you should actively be trying to avoid topdecking to begin with. more cards = more solutions to problems that come up, and more power on your turn.

also steam mods are just as bad if not worse tbh.

[RogueDK]

This discussion is as old as the game itself.

The shuffler is rigged. Pure and simple. Everytime someone mentions it however they get swamped with White Knights who come the games defence.

Fact: We all enjoy the rigged shuffler everytime we start a game. Devs have flat out told us that they masnipulate your starter hand to try and avoid hands with no or all land. Thats why we very rarely see them in our opening hand.
The flip side to this is that they manipulate our card draw during the game. They litterally decide who wins before the game even starts and gives that player a "helping hand" during the match. It CAN be beaten but its an uphill battle for sure.

I have matches regularly where I only draw one of the two mana available in the deck. 5 turns of only drawing one kind of colored lands. As I said, it happens to me allot and it happens with the starter decks too, so not my deckbuilding skills at fault here.

I think theres a decent game here, but theres a layer of behind-the-scenes control that ruins it. My theory is that you can buy wins by spending money in game. I tried it, and it worked. I was on loosing streak. Spent some money and started winning easy for a day or two. It may very well have been chance, but thats what Im betting. Until I see proof otherwise. (See? Proof arguement works both ways.)

[Winter Wolf]

RogueDK の投稿を引用：

Snipped for brevity

To Start with some terms:
"Paying:" Spending real world money in Wizards of the Coast store for in-game products.

"Proof": something that can be independently verified without your testimony. Either by
reproducible actions or records of reproducible actions.

"Rigged": something that has a certain outcome without giving you any agency.

"Hand Smoother": An algorithm that effects every game instance and every player in those instances. Whether it does something beneficial or not, it does so to everyone. No one is exempt.

Now for some logic:
If paying to win was how you had to get winning streaks no one who was free to play would ever rank up. It would be a constant 1 step forward 2 steps back scenario. Well at least past Bronze where there is no stepping back.

If you could guarantee a win by paying into the store there would be absolute irrefutable proof of this freely available on the internet. And the game would be eventually shut down.

My personal experience without Paying to Play is that the game is the same game I've been playing for 30+ years except with a fancier looking UI that has a few issues (come on guys fix the placement of the buttons. I know layout is an annoying part of game design but seriously overlapping functions that do opposite things should not be overlapping at all. But I digress),. a better shuffler than I ever managed despite having played card games most of my life, and a level 5 rules judge that almost never errs and if it does the error is caught quickly and patched.

Streaks happen. This is the nature of randomness. It is natural to find outside reasons for this but typically it is just what the professional players call "variance". The rest is just a rant to blow off steam which is fine but looks better if you don't make false attributions or point fingers.

"Drat! I lost 12 games in row before my deck started kicking in!" is something I have said recently. The fix was not spending money but paying attention to what was not working and slowly fixing the deck until it functioned reasonably well. Accepting of course that some match-ups are just hard to win. Especially in best of one where you only get one shot at the opponent before you are on to the next.