Maybe i'm just old school.

[hammerinn]

I don't understand how in ranked almost everyone plays the same 10 decks. Has winning in a game with only cards as a reward THAT important? It used to be the fun was creating a deck, not copying one.

[DontMisunderstand]

Origineel geplaatst door Soji:

Origineel geplaatst door DontMisunderstand:

Winning has nothing to do with this topic at all.

Please read the OP again, slowly. Twice if you need to.

Perhaps you're the one who needs to read it more carefully? They literally open by saying they don't know why this is happening, and take a blind stab in the dark at potential reasons, that's also not correct.

[Kurt Angle's Neck]

Origineel geplaatst door DontMisunderstand:

Origineel geplaatst door Soji:

Please read the OP again, slowly. Twice if you need to.

Perhaps you're the one who needs to read it more carefully? They literally open by saying they don't know why this is happening, and take a blind stab in the dark at potential reasons, that's also not correct.

Bruh, it has everything to do with winning. It's the age-old discussion of "playing to win" vs "playing for fun". OP is clearly someone who believes that the main goal of the game is to have as much fun as possible, and values unique deck creation over optimization for winning. While it's certainly true that you should be having fun while playing, that doesn't change the fact that the true objective of the game (and every other game) is to win. The reason that you run into a considerable amount of meta decks in Arena is that most people are playing to win, and using a top meta deck provides the highest chance of winning.

[Berserkr]

Don't play in ranked and don't play past platinum if you do and you'll have fun for ages and ages

[Soji]

Origineel geplaatst door Kurt Angle's Neck:

Origineel geplaatst door DontMisunderstand:

Perhaps you're the one who needs to read it more carefully? They literally open by saying they don't know why this is happening, and take a blind stab in the dark at potential reasons, that's also not correct.

Bruh, it has everything to do with winning. It's the age-old discussion of "playing to win" vs "playing for fun". OP is clearly someone who believes that the main goal of the game is to have as much fun as possible, and values unique deck creation over optimization for winning. While it's certainly true that you should be having fun while playing, that doesn't change the fact that the true objective of the game (and every other game) is to win. The reason that you run into a considerable amount of meta decks in Arena is that most people are playing to win, and using a top meta deck provides the highest chance of winning.

Appreciate you trying to spell if out for them but they can't even see the part where the OP is asking "Has winning in a game with only cards as a reward THAT important?" (which of all game modes, they refer to RANKED in that fashion) which is only 2 lines in so I dont have much faith they'll read your entire post.

[CourtJesterCowboy]

This is a huge problem. The most satisfying Magic experience is on paper in person drafts or sealed. No phones, atleast not for deck building, allowed. I have never seen the same deck twice in recently drafts and good players actually shine for skill and knowledge, so I wind up not even upset in loss. Just a good time all around. Arena is not real Magic.

[Marine Ops Specialist]

op is pretty deluded if he thinks that mtg never had a meta before mtga

when the dci cards were a thing (15 years ago) and i was constantly competing in tournaments to earn dci points every single high end tournament had the same 10-15 decks

[CourtJesterCowboy]

Origineel geplaatst door Marine Ops Specialist:

op is pretty deluded if he thinks that mtg never had a meta before mtga

when the dci cards where a thing (15 years ago) and i was constantly competing in tournaments to earn dci points every single high end tournament had the same 10-15 decks

...and you would be equally deluded to think serious tournament metas represented the entire game at that time, like they do now, and no matter how you spin it, drafts/sealed events at game stores where people don't get to use their phone/deck assistants play completely different to Arena. That isnt up for debate. It isnt even close.

[Namdoolb]

It's a tricky one isn't it......

On one hand the meta isn't exactly new; (I started playing competitive standard back in 2006) deck variety on arena isn't too far removed from competitive fnm or ptq meta from back in the day.
On the other hand I get it..... You can take your casual fun deck, stick it in unranked, & still run into meta 5 out of 6 times.

I feel there's a couple of reasons for this:

Firstly arena has a global meta: unlike your fnm which back in the day had maybe a 20-30 person metagame, you've got a metagame comprised of a huge number of potential players. What this translates to is a much more consistent meta with fewer outliers. It also means that players have to be more competitive to succeed, & are less likely to innovate.

Secondly: Arena's economy supports net-decking.
The wildcard system makes it just as expensive to build a fun casual deck as it is to build a top tier competitive deck. Just to be clear; I agree that arena does need some kind of a system to allow players to "craft" the cards that they want (rather than cracking packs for them), & I also believe that intentionally making some cards more expensive to acquire than others is not okay given the manner in which the cards are supplied.
But, that is a shortcoming of the current system: Why spend 30-40 wildcards on a non-competitive deck when you can get a top tier deck which will win matches for the same expenditure....

Thirdly: The way Arena dispenses it's rewards kinda rewards metagaming.
If you want to get your wins in relatively quickly, you want to be playing on-meta..... Simply put it gives you quicker games & a higher win percentage within those games.


That's the why (as I can see it); you log into arena & you get the same sort of meta you'd expect if you were playing in a GP or an RCQ or something similar. The sad part is; I'm not sure what the fix is.... not sure if there even is a fix. Arena has created a global metagame with a huge number of matches taking place, & that metagame has tended towards the optimised position, Helped by an economy that both rewards players for & makes it very easy for them to play those meta decks. Not entirely sure the toothpaste can be put back in this particular tube.

[Soji]

There is no solution to this problem, because the problem boils down to people wanting a completely randomly selection of people to not play decks that are seen as 'meta' which first off, is so wildly variable to MTG players its basically pointless to really define. Even if you where to catalogue the top 10 most winning decks on MTGA and ban every single card in them, there would still be a meta arise from whats left people would not like. The real issue is people do not like seeing the same card used by multiple which is an unreasonable expectation to project on a playerbase, This isn't like the yugioh anime where everyone has a deck full of cards and strategies completely unique to themselves and nobody else, but that's exactly what these players want. That would be a fun world for sure but its not the one we live in. Then they like to blame people for wanting to win so they can get any kind of return of investment into this game which either you sink real cash or tons of hours into to craft anything. You acknowledge the economy and how it rewards playing to win, I can only hope others as well can too because its really just people not wanting to waste their time playing decks they might not even know work either. Deck building and brewing can be fun but its not for everyone, especially when they're not good at it and know they'll spend their wildcards on choices that might not even be worth the craft.

The only way they'll get what they want is to form a league with like minded players so they can all use their homebrews with each other without worrying about whatever they deem as meta. Trying to project this onto an entire playerbase is asinine.

Origineel geplaatst door Namdoolb:

It's a tricky one isn't it......

On one hand the meta isn't exactly new; (I started playing competitive standard back in 2006) deck variety on arena isn't too far removed from competitive fnm or ptq meta from back in the day.
On the other hand I get it..... You can take your casual fun deck, stick it in unranked, & still run into meta 5 out of 6 times.

I feel there's a couple of reasons for this:

Firstly arena has a global meta: unlike your fnm which back in the day had maybe a 20-30 person metagame, you've got a metagame comprised of a huge number of potential players. What this translates to is a much more consistent meta with fewer outliers. It also means that players have to be more competitive to succeed, & are less likely to innovate.

Secondly: Arena's economy supports net-decking.
The wildcard system makes it just as expensive to build a fun casual deck as it is to build a top tier competitive deck. Just to be clear; I agree that arena does need some kind of a system to allow players to "craft" the cards that they want (rather than cracking packs for them), & I also believe that intentionally making some cards more expensive to acquire than others is not okay given the manner in which the cards are supplied.
But, that is a shortcoming of the current system: Why spend 30-40 wildcards on a non-competitive deck when you can get a top tier deck which will win matches for the same expenditure....

Thirdly: The way Arena dispenses it's rewards kinda rewards metagaming.
If you want to get your wins in relatively quickly, you want to be playing on-meta..... Simply put it gives you quicker games & a higher win percentage within those games.


That's the why (as I can see it); you log into arena & you get the same sort of meta you'd expect if you were playing in a GP or an RCQ or something similar. The sad part is; I'm not sure what the fix is.... not sure if there even is a fix. Arena has created a global metagame with a huge number of matches taking place, & that metagame has tended towards the optimised position, Helped by an economy that both rewards players for & makes it very easy for them to play those meta decks. Not entirely sure the toothpaste can be put back in this particular tube.

[Winter Wolf]

Origineel geplaatst door Soji:

Snipped for brevity

Hence why 'Tilting at Windmills' in my prior commentary. The problem is, people still want to complain about things that they know are completely unrealistic to expect changes from. AND there is a kind of gatekeeper/elitist mentality that seems to be along the line of "oh I am the only one who builds/makes original xyz" which is complete bs but people still do it because people need to feel good about themselves. Which is fine as long as they aren't knocking everyone else. Originality is not overrated but it is rarer than people seem to think and also nothing is created in a vacuum.

[Soji]

Origineel geplaatst door Winter Wolf:

Origineel geplaatst door Soji:

Snipped for brevity

Hence why 'Tilting at Windmills' in my prior commentary. The problem is, people still want to complain about things that they know are completely unrealistic to expect changes from. AND there is a kind of gatekeeper/elitist mentality that seems to be along the line of "oh I am the only one who builds/makes original xyz" which is complete bs but people still do it because people need to feel good about themselves. Which is fine as long as they aren't knocking everyone else. Originality is not overrated but it is rarer than people seem to think and also nothing is created in a vacuum.

The mentality is something that comes with the territory. I dont even think the OP was trying to be particularly snarky, but implying that things were better when people didn't play to win definitely just reeks of ignorance. I've played since lorwyn, around 2007-2008 and sure that's not nearly as long as some, but it has always been this way in competitive environments. which MTGA is. They're trying to attribute kitchen table magic to a really competitive LGS during FNM essentially. Instead of trying to find matches at the side tables where the mood is way more relaxed, they'll sign up for the tournament and get upset people are using meta and look down their noses at them like THEYRE in the wrong for wanting to get any kind of return of investment (entry/venue fee)

[Winter Wolf]

Origineel geplaatst door Soji:

Snipped

I remember playing in 1994 and thinking wow these tournament guys are really serious. What was going through my mind to bring things like Gaea's Liege and Force of Nature?? I mean it was a great and fun deck but it definitely did not belong being played against White Weenies (Order of Leitbur as an example of a card on their board) or UR Burn Control (Counters, Drains, etc and of course Reverberation for my Fireballs.)

And that first tournament was a wake up about the nature of the game. It can be fun and very loose and someone even built a deck that is a virtual machine. BUT that does not mean that's how most people play it.

And Kitchen table play has grown from the days I played on my linoleum hallway floors with friends not even using sleeves. We are no longer playing with a pool of a few hundred cards but many thousands. And we no longer need to be rules efficient because Arena takes care of that,

But the fact that people play casually should not mean there must be a divide between those who do one and those who do the other. Some do both. Most imho do something in between. Best of One is certainly not top tier gaming when Best of 3 still is where the pros play because high rel tournaments are best of 3.

[Tom the Mime Artist]

Origineel geplaatst door Soji:

The mentality is something that comes with the territory. I dont even think the OP was trying to be particularly snarky, but implying that things were better when people didn't play to win definitely just reeks of ignorance. I've played since lorwyn, around 2007-2008 and sure that's not nearly as long as some, but it has always been this way in competitive environments. which MTGA is. They're trying to attribute kitchen table magic to a really competitive LGS during FNM essentially. Instead of trying to find matches at the side tables where the mood is way more relaxed, they'll sign up for the tournament and get upset people are using meta and look down their noses at them like THEYRE in the wrong for wanting to get any kind of return of investment (entry/venue fee)

If I'm playing some janky decks and some more competitive decks, I'm sure as hell playing the competitive one where a Sheoldred costs the same as any other mythic and the jank one where one Sheoldred would cost as much as the rest of my deck.

[DontMisunderstand]

Origineel geplaatst door Kurt Angle's Neck:

Origineel geplaatst door DontMisunderstand:

Perhaps you're the one who needs to read it more carefully? They literally open by saying they don't know why this is happening, and take a blind stab in the dark at potential reasons, that's also not correct.

Bruh, it has everything to do with winning. It's the age-old discussion of "playing to win" vs "playing for fun". OP is clearly someone who believes that the main goal of the game is to have as much fun as possible, and values unique deck creation over optimization for winning. While it's certainly true that you should be having fun while playing, that doesn't change the fact that the true objective of the game (and every other game) is to win. The reason that you run into a considerable amount of meta decks in Arena is that most people are playing to win, and using a top meta deck provides the highest chance of winning.

Optimization for winning has nothing to do with seeing the same exact deck over and over though. The two are unrelated ideas.

[mwesthoff]

Origineel geplaatst door DontMisunderstand:

Origineel geplaatst door Kurt Angle's Neck:

Bruh, it has everything to do with winning. It's the age-old discussion of "playing to win" vs "playing for fun". OP is clearly someone who believes that the main goal of the game is to have as much fun as possible, and values unique deck creation over optimization for winning. While it's certainly true that you should be having fun while playing, that doesn't change the fact that the true objective of the game (and every other game) is to win. The reason that you run into a considerable amount of meta decks in Arena is that most people are playing to win, and using a top meta deck provides the highest chance of winning.

Optimization for winning has nothing to do with seeing the same exact deck over and over though. The two are unrelated ideas.

Knowing the meta game is learning the game. Anything else is a tea party.