Magic 2014

Magic 2014

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zhaguar Sep 24, 2013 @ 10:18am
Cant figure out Lords of Darkness
PLEASE I paid for this deck and I cannot figure out how to build the damn thing! I've tried balancing it out evenly along mana costs, tried focusing smaller, without heartless, tried bigger with heartless, with the bettles sacrifice and without and I CANT EVEN BEAT the FIRST EXPANSION CHALLANGE >< >< ALSO DODGE AND BURN IS USELESS IN MY HANDS and ive watched 2 youtube guides and both deck ideas were worthless >< Strugging here!
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Showing 1-8 of 8 comments
Puzzlemint Sep 24, 2013 @ 11:31am 
Two questions, here: How experienced are you with Magic in general, and do you also have trouble playing Masks of the Dimir?

The impression I get - and forgive me if I'm mistaken - is that you're relatively inexperienced, and simply don't know how to play control decks.
If this is the case, don't be too hard on yourself; of the six basic deck archetypes, control is probably the hardest to master, and while the decks in question don't need to be built as control decks, they definitely play better when they are.

Here[community.wizards.com] is a good read on playing control. It might be helpful to read that first, so you have a better handle on the archetype before you worry about the specifics of each deck.
Unless none of this applies to you, in which case feel free to disregard everything I've said so far.

=====

For Lords of Darkness, Heartless Summoning is kind of a trap. It's only good if you draw exactly one of them early in the game. If you draw it late, or draw it in multiples, it'll just be a dead draw. And speaking of traps, don't bother with Grave Pact, either. This deck just doesn't have any good ways to take advantage of it.
Instead, focus on removal, keeping your opponent's field clear of major threats until you can start dropping major threats of your own.

Must-runs in terms of removal are all four Diabolic Edict, at least two of the four "Destroy target nonblack creature" cards (Doom Blade/Hideous End), both Tendrils of Corruption, Mutilate, both Damnations, and Corrupt - the Tendrils and Corrupt are especially important, since the lifegain will offset early damage, as well as self-inflicted life loss from things like Bloodgift Demon. No Mercy is also a great card for keeping your opponent's creatures at bay.

For creatures, most of the cheap ones are pretty bad, at least in a control build for this deck. The ones to consider are Onyx Mage (extra removal), Soot Imp (free damage), and Soulcage Fiend (punishes your opponents for attacking). Of the three, I would personally say Onyx Mage is the best.

For your big creatures, the ones to avoid are Renegade Demon, Hellcarver Demon, Lord of the Pit, and Demon of Death's Gate. I personally also dropped Pestilence Demon and Reiver Demon. They're both great cards, but they're just too expensive for this deck.

Since you'll be playing a lot of cards in the 5-7 mana range, you should be running at least 25 land. I personally run 26, because I want to be dropping either a Bloodgift Demon or a Halo Hunter on turn 5 every game if possible.

=====

For Dodge and Burn, you can go either the creature-heavy tempo version, or the (almost) creatureless version which can be built either as control or straight burn. The tempo version is the easiest to play and can win faster with good draws, but has more bad matchups; a lot of the good sweepers will become dead cards because they'll hurt you as much as your opponent.

It's probably the hardest deck to build, just because there are so many options, and all of them are good.

Here's an attempt at a card-by-card breakdown. It's mostly aimed towards creatureless builds, because they're generally considered to be just plain stronger than the Kiln Fiend build.


Sweepers
---
Earthquake is cheap and effective, and it wrecks all the weenie aggro decks (except maybe illusions), and it also hurts your opponent. The down side is that it also hurts you, and usually can't be used to remove bigger threats, because it would just inflict too much damage to yourself.

Starstorm is a must-run. It's the only scalable sweeper you have that hits fliers, and it's the only sweeper you have that doesn't hurt you, and if you don't need it, you can cycle it to draw a card.

Volcanic Fallout has the same damage:cost ratio as an Earthquake for 2, but it's also an instant that can't be countered and hits fliers. I can't imagine not running these.

Breaking Point is good because it can kill creatures that are too strong to burn, but bad because it leaves the choice up to your opponent. I would only run this in a build that is focused on fast burn.

Sulfurous Blast is like a more expensive Volcanic Fallout that can be countered, but might do more damage if you ignore the fact that it's an instant. The extra damage can be important in some matchups, but it can also kill you. Tough call.


Single-target Removal
---
Pongify is important for dealing with creatures that you can't burn, and it really shines against Illusions, since the sacrifice trigger means they won't even get the token. Run at least 2 in all builds.

Banefire is one of the most important cards in the deck. If you have enough mana, it can kill nearly anything -- including Dawn Elemental, if X is 5 or more. Throwing it at your opponent's face late in the game is also one of the primary win conditions in the control build.

Volcanic Geyser is a third Banefire that's also an instant, but doesn't do anything special if you spend more mana on it. Throwing this at your opponent in their end step only to untap and finish them off with a Banefire is a great way to finish games.

Searing Spear is a no-brainer. Run all three.

Electrolyze is also fantastic. If you're lucky, you can get a two-for-zero, since the card replaces itself. I would run four if I could.

Char is less of an easy sell. On the one hand, 4 damage is a lot in this game. It can kill a lot of creatures that your other spells can't, or it can shave off 20% of your opponent's life at the cost of 10% of your own. A must-run in the burn build, but the self-inflicted damage is a lot more painful to the control build.

Invoke the Firemind is like a really mediocre Banefire that can also draw cards. It's worth considering in a slow control build, but even then I think there are better options.

Fireblast is great if you reach the point where you can hard-cast it, and even better if you can spare the Mountains for the alternate cost. Being able to kill things (up to and including your opponent) while you're tapped out is extremely powerful. I would run this in every build.


Counters
---
Remand is one of the best cards in this deck, but also one of the hardest to explain to people who don't already know why it's so powerful. Here's a list[community.wizards.com].

Memory Lapse is not quite as flexible as Remand, but it's still an extremely powerful tempo play. Run both.

Cancel is.. well, Cancel. It's not amazing, but it gets the job done. The 1UU cost can hurt some builds, and others just don't need the extra counters. Run it if you need it.

Thoughbind is less useful than Cancel, but easier to cast. This game has a lot of cheap-but-powerful cards, so if you only have room for one or the other, I would give serious consideration to running Thoughtbind over Cancel.

Draining Whelk is expensive, but he wins games. Probably not worth it in a burn build, but otherwise he's an all-star.

Overwhelming Intellect is another expensive one, and not as useful since it only hits creatures, but it also has the benefit of restocking your hand. Worth considering for a slow control build.


Draw Spells
---
Peek is nice and cheap, and provides you with information, but it doesn't give you card advantage. I would probably only run it in the Kiln Fiend build.

Cerebral Vortex is, at worst, a 3-mana instant Sign in Blood. Sign in Blood is already a good card, and instant just makes it better. It's also absolute murder in the mirror match if you pop it after your opponent plays Opportunity or a giant Invoke.

Compulsive Research is good and cheap. Kinda sucks when you don't have a spare land to pitch, but you should still be running at least two of them in all builds.

Browbeat is another punisher card like Breaking Point. Great in a burn build, maybe adequate with Kiln Fiends, but control has better options.

Future Sight is phenomenal in a blue-heavy control build, but not so great in other builds.

Opportunity.. same assessment as Future Sight.


Other Spells
---
Swerve is one of the most powerful cards in the mirror match, and has at least one relevant use in almost every other matchup. Worth considering for control.

Pillage can royally screw over the three-color decks, and it can blow up the overpowered equipment in the Samurai decks, but otherwise it's not that useful.

Reins of Power might get you the occasional win in a creatureless build, but otherwise it's just a four-mana fog. Probably not worth it.

Stolen Goods is decent, but I don't think the deck needs it. Also, it doesn't work properly in multiplayer.

Gather Specimens is kind of like a cross between Draining Whelk and Overwhelming Intellect. It only hits creatures, but if you hit a big one it can win you the game. Interesting, but I'm not really sure if it's worth it.

Spelltwine just sucks. Most other decks aren't running anything worth casting except removal spells, which will never make it to their graveyard if you aren't running anything for them to remove.

And Spirit Away is just too expensive.
Puzzlemint Sep 24, 2013 @ 11:45am 
My current build for Lords of Darkness:

Land (26)
---
26 Swamp

Creatures (14)
---
4 Onyx Mage
1 Shadowborn Demon
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Halo Hunter
1 Reaper from the Abyss
1 Harvester of Souls
1 Lord of the Void
1 Rune-Scarred Demon

Other (20)
---
1 Innocent Blood
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Doom Blade
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Hideous End
1 No Mercy
2 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Mutilate
2 Damnation
2 Promise of Power
2 Harrowing Journey
1 Corrupt

Only running 3 of the 4 "destroy target nonblack creature" cards because they're dead in the mirror and against Zombies.

I'm not 100% sold on Infernal Tutor. You're almost never going to be out of cards, and I don't have a huge amount of cards I want in multiples (for that matter, I don't have a huge amount of cards with multiples). Most of the time I just use it to fetch another swamp to make sure I hit my land drops.

Running all four cards for life spells is probably overkill, but I really like drawing cards in a control deck, and Harrowing Journey can be used as a really expensive finisher in a pinch.


=====

My current Dodge and Burn build:

Land (26)
---
12 Island
11 Mountain
3 Terramorphic Expanse

Creatures (2)
---
2 Draining Whelk

Other (32)
---
2 Pongify
2 Banefire
1 Swerve
4 Remand
2 Memory Lapse
2 Starstorm
1 Volcanic Geyser
3 Searing Spear
1 Cerebral Vortex
2 Eelctrolyze
2 Cancel
2 Thoughtbind
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Compulsive Research
1 Future Sight
2 Opportunity
1 Fireblast

26 land because I want to be hitting 6 mana as quickly as possible, and still hitting more for giant Banefires. Only 3 expanses because I want to be either playing them turn 1 or pitching them to Compulsive Research. After turn 1, the tempo hit is just too painful.

Only running four sweepers might hurt against the weenie decks, but I've got enough draw power that I can usually hit at least one of them.

Running both Swerve and Cerebral Vortex primarily for the mirror, since it's one of the deck's worst matchups. Against the other bad matchup (Chant of Mul Daya), I guess I either hit Pongify and my counters at the right time or I scoop. Can't win 'em all.
zhaguar Sep 24, 2013 @ 3:12pm 
ahhhhh yes relatively inexperienced thankyou that is extremely helpful!!! The only deck I seem to do well with is the undead lifedrain decks! THANKS!
zhaguar Sep 25, 2013 @ 1:49am 
Thankyou for the guide. After reading it I realised my mistakes, I had been trying to learn this deck without really knowing what a control deck was, and trying to learn against Jace and Sigismund of all challanges! Big mistakes! Thanks again. Feel free t link more guides you have done ^_^
demopan Sep 25, 2013 @ 4:49am 
don't take his advice on heartless summoning, it has caused me to win more games then lose because of getting somthing like a turn 3 5 drop
Puzzlemint Sep 25, 2013 @ 8:17am 
Originally posted by demopan:
don't take his advice on heartless summoning, it has caused me to win more games then lose because of getting somthing like a turn 3 5 drop
That's because you drew exactly one copy in the early game, which, as I said, is the only situation where it's actually good in this deck.
135792468 Sep 25, 2013 @ 8:47am 
Originally posted by Don't take it puzzlingly, babe:
Two questions, here: How experienced are you with Magic in general, and do you also have trouble playing Masks of the Dimir?

The impression I get - and forgive me if I'm mistaken - is that you're relatively inexperienced, and simply don't know how to play control decks.
If this is the case, don't be too hard on yourself; of the six basic deck archetypes, control is probably the hardest to master, and while the decks in question don't need to be built as control decks, they definitely play better when they are.

Here[community.wizards.com] is a good read on playing control. It might be helpful to read that first, so you have a better handle on the archetype before you worry about the specifics of each deck.
Unless none of this applies to you, in which case feel free to disregard everything I've said so far.

=====

For Lords of Darkness, Heartless Summoning is kind of a trap. It's only good if you draw exactly one of them early in the game. If you draw it late, or draw it in multiples, it'll just be a dead draw. And speaking of traps, don't bother with Grave Pact, either. This deck just doesn't have any good ways to take advantage of it.
Instead, focus on removal, keeping your opponent's field clear of major threats until you can start dropping major threats of your own.

Must-runs in terms of removal are all four Diabolic Edict, at least two of the four "Destroy target nonblack creature" cards (Doom Blade/Hideous End), both Tendrils of Corruption, Mutilate, both Damnations, and Corrupt - the Tendrils and Corrupt are especially important, since the lifegain will offset early damage, as well as self-inflicted life loss from things like Bloodgift Demon. No Mercy is also a great card for keeping your opponent's creatures at bay.

For creatures, most of the cheap ones are pretty bad, at least in a control build for this deck. The ones to consider are Onyx Mage (extra removal), Soot Imp (free damage), and Soulcage Fiend (punishes your opponents for attacking). Of the three, I would personally say Onyx Mage is the best.

For your big creatures, the ones to avoid are Renegade Demon, Hellcarver Demon, Lord of the Pit, and Demon of Death's Gate. I personally also dropped Pestilence Demon and Reiver Demon. They're both great cards, but they're just too expensive for this deck.

Since you'll be playing a lot of cards in the 5-7 mana range, you should be running at least 25 land. I personally run 26, because I want to be dropping either a Bloodgift Demon or a Halo Hunter on turn 5 every game if possible.

=====

For Dodge and Burn, you can go either the creature-heavy tempo version, or the (almost) creatureless version which can be built either as control or straight burn. The tempo version is the easiest to play and can win faster with good draws, but has more bad matchups; a lot of the good sweepers will become dead cards because they'll hurt you as much as your opponent.

It's probably the hardest deck to build, just because there are so many options, and all of them are good.

Here's an attempt at a card-by-card breakdown. It's mostly aimed towards creatureless builds, because they're generally considered to be just plain stronger than the Kiln Fiend build.


Sweepers
---
Earthquake is cheap and effective, and it wrecks all the weenie aggro decks (except maybe illusions), and it also hurts your opponent. The down side is that it also hurts you, and usually can't be used to remove bigger threats, because it would just inflict too much damage to yourself.

Starstorm is a must-run. It's the only scalable sweeper you have that hits fliers, and it's the only sweeper you have that doesn't hurt you, and if you don't need it, you can cycle it to draw a card.

Volcanic Fallout has the same damage:cost ratio as an Earthquake for 2, but it's also an instant that can't be countered and hits fliers. I can't imagine not running these.

Breaking Point is good because it can kill creatures that are too strong to burn, but bad because it leaves the choice up to your opponent. I would only run this in a build that is focused on fast burn.

Sulfurous Blast is like a more expensive Volcanic Fallout that can be countered, but might do more damage if you ignore the fact that it's an instant. The extra damage can be important in some matchups, but it can also kill you. Tough call.


Single-target Removal
---
Pongify is important for dealing with creatures that you can't burn, and it really shines against Illusions, since the sacrifice trigger means they won't even get the token. Run at least 2 in all builds.

Banefire is one of the most important cards in the deck. If you have enough mana, it can kill nearly anything -- including Dawn Elemental, if X is 5 or more. Throwing it at your opponent's face late in the game is also one of the primary win conditions in the control build.

Volcanic Geyser is a third Banefire that's also an instant, but doesn't do anything special if you spend more mana on it. Throwing this at your opponent in their end step only to untap and finish them off with a Banefire is a great way to finish games.

Searing Spear is a no-brainer. Run all three.

Electrolyze is also fantastic. If you're lucky, you can get a two-for-zero, since the card replaces itself. I would run four if I could.

Char is less of an easy sell. On the one hand, 4 damage is a lot in this game. It can kill a lot of creatures that your other spells can't, or it can shave off 20% of your opponent's life at the cost of 10% of your own. A must-run in the burn build, but the self-inflicted damage is a lot more painful to the control build.

Invoke the Firemind is like a really mediocre Banefire that can also draw cards. It's worth considering in a slow control build, but even then I think there are better options.

Fireblast is great if you reach the point where you can hard-cast it, and even better if you can spare the Mountains for the alternate cost. Being able to kill things (up to and including your opponent) while you're tapped out is extremely powerful. I would run this in every build.


Counters
---
Remand is one of the best cards in this deck, but also one of the hardest to explain to people who don't already know why it's so powerful. Here's a list[community.wizards.com].

Memory Lapse is not quite as flexible as Remand, but it's still an extremely powerful tempo play. Run both.

Cancel is.. well, Cancel. It's not amazing, but it gets the job done. The 1UU cost can hurt some builds, and others just don't need the extra counters. Run it if you need it.

Thoughbind is less useful than Cancel, but easier to cast. This game has a lot of cheap-but-powerful cards, so if you only have room for one or the other, I would give serious consideration to running Thoughtbind over Cancel.

Draining Whelk is expensive, but he wins games. Probably not worth it in a burn build, but otherwise he's an all-star.

Overwhelming Intellect is another expensive one, and not as useful since it only hits creatures, but it also has the benefit of restocking your hand. Worth considering for a slow control build.


Draw Spells
---
Peek is nice and cheap, and provides you with information, but it doesn't give you card advantage. I would probably only run it in the Kiln Fiend build.

Cerebral Vortex is, at worst, a 3-mana instant Sign in Blood. Sign in Blood is already a good card, and instant just makes it better. It's also absolute murder in the mirror match if you pop it after your opponent plays Opportunity or a giant Invoke.

Compulsive Research is good and cheap. Kinda sucks when you don't have a spare land to pitch, but you should still be running at least two of them in all builds.

Browbeat is another punisher card like Breaking Point. Great in a burn build, maybe adequate with Kiln Fiends, but control has better options.

Future Sight is phenomenal in a blue-heavy control build, but not so great in other builds.

Opportunity.. same assessment as Future Sight.


Other Spells
---
Swerve is one of the most powerful cards in the mirror match, and has at least one relevant use in almost every other matchup. Worth considering for control.

Pillage can royally screw over the three-color decks, and it can blow up the overpowered equipment in the Samurai decks, but otherwise it's not that useful.

Reins of Power might get you the occasional win in a creatureless build, but otherwise it's just a four-mana fog. Probably not worth it.

Stolen Goods is decent, but I don't think the deck needs it. Also, it doesn't work properly in multiplayer.

Gather Specimens is kind of like a cross between Draining Whelk and Overwhelming Intellect. It only hits creatures, but if you hit a big one it can win you the game. Interesting, but I'm not really sure if it's worth it.

Spelltwine just sucks. Most other decks aren't running anything worth casting except removal spells, which will never make it to their graveyard if you aren't running anything for them to remove.

And Spirit Away is just too expensive.

Spelltwine is actually quite good.
Puzzlemint Sep 25, 2013 @ 9:20am 
It's a 6-mana sorcery that you can't even cast unless your opponent has something in their graveyard for it to target. You can't use it to get back any of your counters, because it's a sorcery. You can't use it to get back anything with X in its cost, because you can't pay anything for X.

That means, at best, it's six mana for an extra Volcanic Fallout, Searing Spear, or Opportunity. As a sorcery. This deck doesn't want to be doing much of anything as a sorcery unless it's an emergency or it wins the game.


And this still leaves the question of what, if anything, you're going to get out of it from your opponent's graveyard.

Against Auras, maybe an Idyllic Tutor that lets you fetch Future Sight if you're running Future Sight and don't already have it out. And that's assuming they're running Idyllic Tutor.

Against Dragons, your only targets are cheap ramp spells that you don't need and removal that probably won't be in their graveyard if you're not playing anything they can remove.

Against Firewave you can get some extra burn. That's not bad, but are you really going to need the extra burn against Firewave? For that matter, are you going to find anyone who's playing Firewave?

Against Exalted you can use Bant Charm to tuck one of their creatures or maybe blow up a behemoth sledge. This still assumes they've both drawn and played a Bant Charm.

Against Hunter's Strength, you get Nature's Lore, or if they tried to Bramblecrush one of your lands, you can Bramblecrush one of theirs. Your odds of running into HS are even lower than that of FW, though.

Against Avacyn's Glory, you can make some 1/1 tokens that will get blown away by your next sweeper. Great value.

Against Jace, well, you can't make use of any of the counters, so the best you're going to hit is Divination.

Nothing useful you can pull from Lords of Darkness, unless they drew too many cards and discarded a Damnation.

Lighting Helix to the face isn't bad against Samurai, but you don't really need the extra damage in that matchup.

Zombies has a single copy of Vampiric Tutor. In the extremely unlikely event that you manage to hit that with your single copy of Spelltwine, that's pretty good for you. Of course, Zombies is one of this deck's worst matchups, so you'll probably already be dead by that point.

Elves has Lead the Stampede.

Slivers gets you ramp you don't need, or tokens you can't use.

Chant gets you even more ramp.

And Dimir has Mind Rot. Maybe a Lobotomy if you're lucky.


Is any of that really worth six mana? Especially as a sorcery, which means having less or no mana up for instants?
Last edited by Puzzlemint; Sep 25, 2013 @ 9:20am
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Date Posted: Sep 24, 2013 @ 10:18am
Posts: 8